Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Iron Man/archive2

Iron Man

Iron Man (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

As of 26 June 2024, 20:01 (UTC), this page is active and open for discussion. An FAC coordinator will be responsible for closing the nomination.

• Featured article candidates/Iron Man/archive1
• Featured article candidates/Iron Man/archive2

Nominator(s): Thebiguglyalien (talk) 12:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm renominating this two weeks after the previous nomination was archived. I'm feeling confident about its chances, as it managed to reach a rough consensus to promote at 3:1 with another review in progress before failing due to a deadline (I probably should have resolved that by doing some quid pro quos to get early reviews like most nominators do, so that's on me). Most of the problems raised by the lone oppose !vote should be addressed per my replies in the previous FAC before it was archived. I justified not acting on the remaining ones, which were largely style preferences or things that I and other reviewers disagreed with. Since the last nomination, I've made two changes: I spent a few minutes addressing the remaining concerns that were cut off when it was archived, and I reverted a few instances of copyediting that I had done during the nomination, as I felt they were detrimental to the article.

I think it's in pretty good shape now, and I look forward to any further feedback! Thebiguglyalien (talk) 12:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Comments from PanagiotisZois

Happy to see this article being nominated again. Continuing from where my previous review ended, I'll start with the "Characterization" section.

Fictional character biography

• Paragraph 1:
  • Long Island, New York should be linked.
  • Wong-Chu should be linked.
  • Does the source state when Siancong was created to explain Iron Man's origin? Given the previous sentence, it probably wasn't in the 1990s, but at least by the 2000s.

Links added. Siancong is interesting; as far as I can tell, there was no one definitive moment that it was changed.

• Paragraph 2:
  • It's stated that Tony helped found S.H.I.E.L.D. But if I'm not mistaken, given the "sliding scale of continuity" in Marvel, hasn't this been changed to have Tony's father be the one who helped found the organization?
  • "As he to regret". I guess you meant "As he [comes] to regret". It could also be "Coming to regret" or just "regretting".
  • I'd change "he relapses as part of a plot by Obadiah Stane" to "he relapses due to a plot orchestrated by Obadiah Stane", which makes the point clearer.
    • Also, although this is briefly mentioned in the "Publication history" section, the reference to Stane being Tony's business rival should also appear here.
  • "After he recovers". Although I get you mean Tony, since we've brought up three men in the previous section, it would be best if you specified who "he" is.

I've made the grammar changes. Friedenthal (2008) says that he "helped establish" S.H.I.E.L.D. Any thoughts on what other approach you might want to take with this?

I tried looking for a source that discusses this, but I've come up with nothing. :/ Not even one source that at least refers to Howard as SHIELD's founder. Taking that into account, there is nothing to do but leave that section as is.

• Pagragraphs 3 & 4:
  • "After returning, Stark falls under Immortus's control, turning Stark evil". Repetition of Stark.
  • "until the Scarlet Witch alters his mind, causing him to embarrass himself and leave in disgrace". How does Tony embarrass himself? Is it something that happened in public, forcing Tony to resign, or something else?
  • "their real son could". Probably better to replace real with biological.

I'm not sure how to handle the Stark repetition, because a "he" there would be ambiguous, even if it can be inferred from context. Made the other changes.

• Paragraph 5:
  • Best to have "morally corrupt" be hyphenated.
  • "protects himself from the counterspell and takes over San Francisco to augment the residents with Extremis". Does that mean that Tony is still under the effects of the spell? I get that the biography section lists the most important aspects of Tony's life based on what the handbooks and secondary academic sources state, but this is something that would require clarification.
  • The biography sections seems to end at around 2019. Again, understand that it's going based on the handbooks, but could something from the past 4 years be added? Like Tony marrying Emma Frost and becoming her trophy husband?

This article clarifies the spell about as much as the writers did. They basically just dropped it and moved on without resolution, and I didn't see any sources that covered their mistake specifically. I have the Emma Frost thing under his relationships, but I added a mention. Iron Man 2020 seems like the obvious inclusion, but there aren't really any good overview sources of its in-universe effects yet. Besides that, I can't find any major developments in his character in the last few years.

Comic writers sweeping things under the rug? Wish they'd do that with Wanda and Pietro being non-mutants and not-Magneto's children. If there aren't any good sources detailing Iron Man 2020, I understand leaving it as is. Glad to see the Emma Frost thing included, so that we at least have a relatively recent plot element from the past couple of months being mentioned.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 21:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Personality and motivations

• I would appreciate some explanation over how the 6 paragraphs are structured; as in, which is the topic they cover. Par 2 for example seems to focus on Tony's relationship with his technology and the Iron Man armor, with his fears relating to losing the armor and also himself; clearly, Tony views the armor as integral to his identity. Taking that into account, doesn't the "innovate and improve his technology" section fit better with the second paragraph, rather than the first?
  • Taking the above into account, wouldn't the last paragraph work better as the third one? That way, you discuss Tony's technology, his views on it, and his fears, and then go on talking about how he's actually better with machines than people; with the section outright stating at the end that Tony "identifies with the Iron Man armor as an extension of himself".
  • It seems to me that paragraphs #3 & 4 are connected in that they both deal with Tony's personality traits and specifically his "weaknesses"; whether it's his heart problems, misogyny, or alcoholism. I just wanted to put out that I do think the order could be reversed and they'd still work, but leaving them as is would be fine.
• "problem solving" would work better hyphenated.
• "The character is represents" probably goes without the "is".

I think the improving his technology aspect is good for the first sentence, as an introduction to who he is first and foremost. There are a lot of notes about the arrangement of this section under PMC's review in the previous nomination, if you're curious about the thought process behind it. But I agree that the last paragraph should be higher up and I moved it accordingly, and I made the grammar fixes.

I'll go over the "Themes and motifs" section in its entirety before I post my comments here.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 16:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Politics and economics

• "opposing radicalism associated with 1960s counterculture". I may need a clarification. Do you mean that Tony opposed radicalism in general sense, which in the 1960s was associated with the counterculture movement? As in, he was a liberal and skeptical of the US government, but not to a radical degree; like the counterculturists.
• "Iron Man opposed the Vietnam War.[127] This gave the" can work as one sentence. "opposed the Vietnman War, which gave the".
• "examination of both perspectives". In terms of what? The role of invetor and technology? That Iron Man represents the inventor's personal use of technology, while Tony Stark's role as a businessman and owner of his company shows the "bureaucracy of governments and corporations"?

Yes, that's what the radicalism part means. Do you think it should be reworded? I also reworded the "both perspectives" part, which is hopefully an improvement.

Technology

• Seeing as you are talking both about technology and technology's impact on society, it should be "are common themes".
• "and the story's writers". Unless only one Iron Man story deals with this theme, it's plural. Also, wouldn't it be better to say that "various writers have portrayed"
• In "Iron Man's use", I'd write it as "The character's use", so that you avoid repeating Iron Man twice in the same sentence.
  • "arise from progress and advancement" as in scientific progress and advancement or technological? Or is it speaking about progress and advancement in a broad sense?
  • "Misuse of technology and [the] implications of cybernetics are regular themes" could be combined without previous sentence, especially since it begins discussing what the previous one ends about.
• Link "automation".

I assume the source means both in a broader sense. Made all grammar fixes.

Armor

• "strength from powered armor of" would be either "a powered armor" or "powered armors".
• "replaced with integrated circuits as real world technology advanced". Is a date provided?
• "it also protects him internally as it keeps his heart beating". Based on previous data, isn't this somewhat outdated? Since his heart surgery, Iron Many doesn't need his armor to keep his heart beating.

No date, it doesn't seem to have been an all-at-once thing. Made the other fixes.

Here are the comments regarding the "Themes and motifs" section.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 18:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

PanagiotisZois, not sure if you're still in the middle of the review, but I jumped in and addressed everything to this point. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 00:40, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey. I was waiting for you to address my current comments before I continued the review. In the past, I've had users drop the peer review or equivalent without addressing my comments, which made me feel like I was wasting my time. I'll go through your changes and then finish with my review. PanagiotisZois (talk) 12:43, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Allies

1. Still believe it's better to have characters go by first name; Pepper rather than Potts or Happy over Hogan. Considering that many of these characters are rarely even referred to by their last name, it often just comes off weird.
2. "have become Iron Man besides Stark" to "have taken up the Iron Man mantle besides".

Romantic interests

1. "Hogan eventually married Potts". Don't suppose a date is provided? It is mentioned in the next sentence that Roxie Gilbert was introduced in the early 1970s. Is that when Pepper and Happy tied the knot?
   1. Might be a stupid question, but where it says "The series then introduced", it's referring to Tales of Suspense, not the Iron Man comic, right?
2. "the second-wave feminism encouraged" remove the article.
3. Besides Pepper and Happy's marriage above, are dates provided in the sources for any of his other love interests? Only Emma Frost has a given time period mentioned.

Cultural impact and legacy

1. "Iron Man is credited with redefining the superhero film genre". The character or the movie?
2. Given the character's decade-long existence, the section does seem quite short, and I would prefer if it was somewhat longer. At the same time, given his long existence, there must be various sources out there reviewing the character, so you can't include all of them. I'm assuming the ones present were the ones you could extract from academic sources?

In other media

1. This is more about this section's mention in the lede. Given how influential the MCU's depiction of the character in perception of the comics version and boosting his popularity, it makes sense this would be brought up in the lede. I would recommend adding a brief mention that outside of the MCU, Iron Man has also appeared in animated films, cartoon series, and video games; if you want to specify, you could add "self-titled X Media".

Here are my final comments @Thebiguglyalien:. Partly due to the sections being smaller, there's not much to discuss.--PanagiotisZois (talk) 15:34, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Support from PMC

Based on my thorough review at the previous FAC, I am happy to support this article again. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 13:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)