Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jane Grigson/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 19 September 2019 [1].

Jane Grigson[edit]

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) & Tim riley talk 10:55, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Jane Grigson will be known to most as the writer of the food column for The Observer, or as the author of numerous books about European cuisines and traditional British dishes. Most of her books were not "recipe books", per se (although they obviously included stacks of eminently cookable recipes), but books about food – where it came from, its position in history and its social and cultural importance. This article has recently been through a major revamp and a solid PR. If anyone has any further constructive comments, suggestions and criticisms, we would be delighted to hear them. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) & Tim riley talk 10:55, 18 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

spotchecks not done

  • Looking at notes 23–31: these should all be similarly formatted, but I'm wondering why some have footnotes and others don't?
  • Ucucha's script is showing approx. a billion harverrors in the References section
    • Done - SchroCat (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • That was my fault – apols! (Trying to cope with the mysteries of the efn etc cuneiform) Tim riley talk 14:58, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN46 is missing italics. Same with 59, 170
  • FN47 doesn't match formatting of other newspaper short cites
  • FN193 is missing a quotation mark
  • Some Worldcat short cites use commas and others use periods - should be consistent
  • Why is there a 1987a when there's no 1987b?
    • There is - it's a newspaper, rather than another book. - SchroCat (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Abbott ref is misformatted
  • Ashley ref has author names in different order than shown at book linked to (look the book itself rather than the Google metadata)
  • The Mennell book linked to is the second edition - the ref should reflect that
  • Cookbook Awards is a dead link
  • Kirkus and Eater should both be italicized, as should Who's Who
  • What makes Ancestry a high-quality reliable source?
    • It contains copies of what is an official government data source. - SchroCat (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • In that case the ref is misformatted. You can include a courtesy link to Ancestry and/or a |via= indication, but the ref itself should reflect the actual data source being cited. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:54, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Good point, now tweaked to show the true origin. - SchroCat (talk) 15:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure why Who's Who is in Internet and ODNB is in Journals
  • Be consistent in whether you include location and/or publisher for periodicals. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:14, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Nikkimaria. All sorted now. Let me know if you have any futher queries. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:51, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - pass[edit]

  • File:Antoine Raspal (1738-1811), Intérieur de cuisine , vers 1776-80.jpg needs a US PD tag and a more direct source link.
  • File:Le Déjeuner sur l'herbe - Monet (Pushkin Museum).jpg needs a US PD tag.
  • File:JohnEvelyn1687.jpg needs a US PD tag.
  • File:JohnEvelyn1687.jpg: the link against Source does not connect to this image.
Now a different not-the-correct-page.
It's correct, but it can't be accessed directly from within the EU. There are multiples examples of an engraving of the portrait, but only this is the only one I could find of the original painting. - SchroCat (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Alexandre Dumas pere.jpg needs a US PD tag.
  • File:Giovanna Garzoni - Chinese Porcelain Plate with Cherries - WGA8489.jpg needs a US PD tag.
  • File:De Nieuwe Vismarkt te Amsterdam, by Emanuel de Witte.jpg needs a US PD tag.
  • IMO the 2nd, 3rd and 4th images could usefully have alt text added.
  • Caption: "Charcuterie and French Pork Cookery contained information and recipes for pork "delightful when cooked or cured, from his snout to his tail", according to Grigson." Possibly some punctuation after "pork"?
  • Link charcuterie.
You have put the link in the alt text - très drôle.
Oops - now tweaked. - SchroCat (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 12:10, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • All done, with the exception of the caption. I wouldn't add anything there, personally, but I'll leave Tim as the arbitrator. Many thanks for the review. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:46, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of minor truffles for you to root out. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
A delightful article. Great work from the pair of you, we expect no less. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sup SC. That very last pic of JG, right at the bottom; how about moving it up a line or two? And, you know, the drop down table of books will...excite...the screen-reader peeps, of course, but I'm saying nothing. Tasty article  :) nice one. ——SerialNumber54129 17:42, 19 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hi SN. Which pic - we only have one of her and it's in the IB. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:29, 20 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Drive by comment I started reading this with the intention of reviewing it, but given it's length, it's too daunting a task for today; I may come back if I find the time. One quick comment though; there's a lot of commentary about her books in the biography section, given that there's an entire section devoted to them later. I'm dealing with a similarly tricky situation at Ursula K. Le Guin, and recognize that it's not possible to segregate completely, but I do wonder if the comments relevant only to her books, and not to her career, can be collected in a single section a bit more. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:54, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
While we were developing the article quite a bit of the material now in the Life section started off in the Works section, but biographical material on Grigson is hard to come by – there is no full-length biography of her – and we have felt it necessary to balance the article as we have. Unlike, say, Elizabeth David, whose life was full of incident, Grigson's life seems to have been one of conscientious and not very eventful industry, and we think the current version reflects the fact that her books constitute the major part of the Life section. With Elizabeth David we wrote a separate article on her books, but we have felt it best to cover all Gregson's along with the Life in a single article. We have aimed at giving a brief overview of each book in a sentence or so, along with the reviews, in the Life section, and focusing in the Works section on the contents, publishing history, etc. Tim riley talk 08:49, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

A few things:

  • "for the Sunderland Echo," italics?
  • "cave-cottage" is there any possible link?
  • I haven't found anything useful, unfortunately. - SchroCat (talk) 14:35, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "homard à l'Americaine" since this is not self-explanatory to many readers, suggest a footnote with an explanation.
  • "The book concludes with glossaries of fish names and cookery terms and measures.[126]" the two "and"s might lead to ambiguity, though not I suppose much.
  • "any that refuse to open" possibly "any that do not open"?
Up to 1970s.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:01, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks Wehwalt - I'm much obliged. Cheers -SchroCat (talk) 14:35, 26 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Me too! Tim riley talk 07:51, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As in her earlier books, Grigson made no claim to originality in her recipes, and was scrupulous about crediting those with a known author." Do recipes have authors or should it be inventor/creator?
  • Nice point, and I'm rather in sympathy with it, but the sources say "author". We could change it if you feel strongly. Tim riley talk 17:55, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The book contains mostly English recipes, but draws from time to time on the cuisine of Wales and Scotland.[145]" Should "cuisine" be "cuisines"?
  • "The book was reissued in Australia and the US in 1984 and in Britain in 1988 and reprinted in 1989." consider a "was" before "reprinted".
  • I wonder if the "Style and Legacy" section could be organised, perhaps, a little more clearly.
  • "Julia Harding & Jose Vouillamoz" an ampersand? I think WP:AMP says not to.
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 08:37, 27 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks, Wehwalt. As ever, your comments are very much to the point and most helpful. Tim riley talk 17:55, 31 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support All looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:46, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for support and for v. helpful comments before that. Tim riley talk 22:55, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from KJP1[edit]

Learnt much of interest about Ms Grigson when reviewing at Peer review, [2]. Found very little to nitpick about then, and am pleased to Support now. KJP1 (talk) 15:42, 1 September 2019 (UTC) As I've had quite an easy run on this, I'd be pleased to pick up the Source review. It will take a few days, partly because there's rather a lot of 'em. KJP1 (talk) 15:49, 1 September 2019 (UTC)0[reply]

Thank you very much for the support, KJ, and I speak for SchroCat as well as for myself in looking forward to the source review you have kindly undertaken. (I propose to let SchroCat deal with your comments there as you and he speak sfn cuneiform and I don't.) Meanwhile, thank you very much! Tim riley talk 22:26, 1 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Second, unnecessary, Source review![edit]

Impressively sourced and cited. Will give comments in dribs and drabs over the day. May be best to wait until they're all in. Don't think there will be many. KJP1 (talk) 07:56, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cited books by Jane Grigson
  • Order - I'm not getting the system for listing the books. It's neither chronological, nor alphabetical. What is it?
  • By original publication date. Do you think a small note should be added? - SchroCat (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Jane Grigson's Vegetable Book. London: Michael Joseph. 1978. ISBN 978-0-7181-1675-0. and Jane Grigson's Vegetable Book. New York: Atheneum. 1979a. ISBN 978-0-689-10994-2. - Aren't these the UK and the US editions of the same book?
  • Yes. The one use of the US version is to support a comment from the US introduction about the blight of supermarkets in both countries - this isn't in the UK version. - SchroCat (talk) 16:36, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Other cited books
  • Davidson, Jane (2002). "Jane Grigson's Fruit Book". In Davidson, Alan; Saberi, Helen (eds.). The Wilder Shores of Gastronomy: Twenty Years of the Best Food Writing From the Journal Petits Propos Culinaires. Berkley, CA: Ten Speed Press. pp. 331–332. - Here, you include the page numbers, which I can see might be helpful as it's an article within a wider book. But you don't, for example, in Allen, Darina (2015). "(Re)creating the Irish Farmers Market". In McWilliams, Mark (ed.). Food & Markets: Proceedings of the Oxford Symposium on Food and Cookery 2014, where it would be pp. 11-14. Do we need consistency?
  • Mennell, Stephen (1996). All Manners of Food: Eating and Taste in England and France from the Middle Ages to the Present (Second ed.). Champaign, IL: University of Illinois Press. - uber-picky but both the book's inside cover, and Worldcat, describe the publisher's location as "Urbana and Chicago". Looking at the Wiki entry, this does indeed say Champaign. Not sure what to suggest.
  • I've gone with the inside cover - SchroCat (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Internet
  • The Art of Charcuterie". WorldCat. Retrieved 18 June 2019 & The Art of Making Sausages, Pâtes, and Other Charcuterie WorldCat. Retrieved 18 June 2019. Are these not online versions of "Charcuterie and French Pork Cookery", cited as the first of Works by Grigson? Same for "Exotic Fruits and Vegetables, the second "English Food" and a number of others. Maybe it doesn't matter, as you're citing them to support specific points, but I thought I'd ask?
  • Yes they are. These are to support the points about the publication details of the books, rather than information from the books. - SchroCat (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Forbes, Paula (15 March 2014). "IACP Announces 2014 Food Writing Award Winners - this is giving a red error message. A manifestation of our recent problem?
Journals and magazines
Newpapers
  • Heading is missing an "s", i.e. Newspapers
  • McIntire, Jane (2 August 1951a). "Attraction of Fine Pottery". Sunderland Echo. p. 2. & McIntire, Jane (27 November 1951b). "North-East Started Renaissance in Art and Learning". Sunderland Echo. p. 2. & McIntire, Jane (20 February 1953). "Stanfield Delights a new Audience". Sunderland Echo. p. 9. These look slightly odd to me as they are Grigson, writing under her maiden name. No idea what MoS says. Any thoughts on how it might be clarified?
  • I don't know how we could (or if we should) clarify. If this was a different article I would have wikilinked back to this page, but we don't want a circular link. - SchroCat (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pardoe, F. E. (28 November 1979). "Those you have drunk". p. vi. Not seeing the newspaper cited here.
  • Ray, Elizabeth (8 December 1974). "Booked cooks". p. 30. Or here.
Radio
  • Desert Island Discs - worth linking - [3], although you need to be registered? Apologies, I see you have linked it, in Internet, above. Needed twice?
  • The Internet reference is to support the dates and content of what was chosen; this is to cover the content of the programme itself. - SchroCat (talk) 16:31, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I realise I've been an absolute idiot and that Nikki's already done a Source Review! But the above was the full extent of my gleanings in any event. So, you've now got two for one. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 10:13, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • KJP1, Many thanks for these comments - at least we know the sources have been well and truly gone over now! My thanks also for your prose review over the weekend. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 16:42, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adding my thanks to SchroCat's. ("Absolute idiot"? Nonsense – we've all been there one way or another.) A second source review, however inadvertent, is no bad thing, and many thanks for yours, KJ! – Tim riley talk 17:39, 5 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from caeciliusinhorto[edit]

I've already done my prose nitpickings at the recent peer review – happy to add my voice in support now. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 16:48, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Benigne, Caecilius – most grateful for your support. – Tim riley talk 17:07, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Caeciliusinhorto, echoing my colleagues thanks. Your comments were spot on and helpful at PR. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:34, 7 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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