Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John Pulman/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 27 April 2024 [1].

John Pulman[edit]

Nominator(s): BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

John Pulman was an eight-time world snooker champion in a period when the sport was at a low ebb. He turned professional in 1946 and retired from competition in 1981 after breaking his leg when hit by a London bus. As ever, I am able to provide relevant extracts from sources to reviewers on request, and welcome all comments that help improve the article. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 17:21, 2 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As this nomination is not attracting attention, I'm pinging Amakuru and Rodney Baggins, who offered challenges and suggestions at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Steve Davis/archive2, and HurricaneHiggins and Lee Vilenski who have a current nomination for 2023 World Snooker Championship, to see if any of them would like to contribute here. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:54, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • File:John_Pulman.jpg needs a more expansive FUR. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:30, 3 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it possible to identify the copyright holder and year? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:00, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nikkimaria: I had a look around some sources to see if I could confirm whether it was published, but didn't find an example. The source has "This photograph originates from the International Magazine Services photo archive. IMS was a editorial photo archive in Scandinavia founded in 1948 but evolved from older archives that have images in the collection also .... The images in this archive where distributed in only 10-15 copies around the world at the time". The scan of the back of the photo does not give a date. Let me know if I should search for a diffrent image. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:22, 8 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • That's fine, would just suggest adding that context to the image description. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:48, 9 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

ReviewSupport from Hurricane Higgins[edit]

I think this article meets all the criteria for a Featured Article. It's comprehensive, meticulously researched, detailed, and yet accessible to a non-specialist audience. The writing is fluid and readable. I learned a lot from reading it, and also enjoyed reading it. It beautifully illuminates an era in snooker that many will know little about.

If I were to revise anything about the writing, I'd rework the final two paragraphs of the "Later career and retirement section", with a focus on chronological order. They skip around confusingly between 1978 and 1998, mentioning his divorce twice, talking about his retirement and then the publication of a book 16 years prior to that.

In terms of content, was there anything notable about Pulman's life between his retirement from professional play in 1981 and his death in 1998? It might be useful, for instance, to know how long he worked as a snooker commentator. This article by Dave Hendon notes that Pulman commentated on the first officially recognized 147 by Steve Davis, which might be something to include. https://www.eurosport.com/snooker/he-can-see-the-pocket-closing-up-re-live-davis-history-making-first-ever-147-break-on-its-anniversar_sto8696729/story.shtml

Not much else of note here. I think this is an excellent article that easily equals or exceeds other snooker articles that have been awarded FA status. So more than happy to support its promotion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by HurricaneHiggins (talk • contribs) 22:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rodney Baggins[edit]

I've had a quick look. First comment would be: this is quite a short article, compared with some of the other featured articles we've worked on. Could it be expanded in any way? HurricaneHiggins has already noted some areas for improvement above, and I might suggest some more after I've had chance to read in more detail today.

I'll look forward to any suggestions for improvement. There is scope to expand on career history, but for personal life, playing style etc I think I 've pretty much wrung out the available sources. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead

I've copyedited this section for you – hope you don't mind. Suggest adding in the following links:

  • I'm grateful for the copyedits; I see you've also kindly copyedited some of the related tournament articles leads. Links suggested above have been added. 20:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)
Early life
  • Can we source his full name Herbert John Pulman?
  • The Times obituary is the source for this; I could add it directly after his full name. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Change Devonshire to Devon, as in infobox, or vice versa, as long as they're the same. I think Devonshire's just an archaic version of Devon.
  • Second sentence could do with swapping round... "His father was Ernest Charles Pulman, a master baker and confectioner, and his mother was Ernest's wife Gertrude Mary Pulman, née Kent."... or something similar.
  • "He was allowed to pick a cue from a selection at the venue," > "He was invited to choose a cue from a selection at the venue,"
  • "and used that cue for the rest of his career." > "and he used that particular cue for the rest of his career."
  • "In his first match with the cue" > "In his first match at the event" ? Might be trying to imply that it was because of the cue that he did so well in the match!
  • I think we should be calling Barrie Smith by his professional name John Barrie.
  • I've added "later known as John Barrie" as he was still known by his original name at the time. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a 200-up match" doesn't mean anything to me – could you perhaps explain it in a footnote?
  • It means "first to 200 points"; I've added a footnote but there may be a more elegant solution. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The cue that Pulman chose" > "The cue that Pulman had chosen" (tense)
  • "included a metal plate mentioning Sidney Smith" – what do you mean by 'mentioning'? Was Smith's name just engraved into the plate cos it had belonged to him? Could just put: "included a metal plate with the name Sidney Smith engraved on it;"
  • The source has "The metal plate on the butt bore the name of Sidney Smith, a renowned professional of the day...". I imagine it was something like the examples here. Amended. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:59, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "using a cue with another professional's name on it." > "using a cue inscribed with another professional's name."
  • "making Spitfire wings" > "making wings for Spitfires" ... brings to mind "four candles / handles for forks"!
  • Spitfire doesn't need to be piped because it's a redirect – just put [[Spitfire]]s
  • Can you say a bit more about the medical grounds on which he was discharged? Was it something that affected his later snooker career?
  • "In the Smith piece, Pulman says, referring to his Army service, that he had varicose veins, but not that this was the reason for the discharge; I've added this in. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 21:50, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Transition from billiards to snooker: I have noticed that the Early life section makes no mention of him playing snooker. He only appears to have played billiards before the war. Then the next section kicks off with him winning the 1946 English Amateur (Snooker) Championship, and billiards is not mentioned again, so how/when did he make the transition to playing snooker?
Early professional career (1946–1955)
  • "At 20, he was the youngest winner since the event was..." > "Aged 20, Pulman was the youngest player to win the event since it was...""
  • "he became a professional player" > "he took the decision to become a professional player"
  • "within ten days of each other." sounds a bit awkward. Maybe change to "just ten days apart" or "the second just ten days after the first"?
  • "Pulman lived at the house of his patron" > "Pulman was living at the home of his patron" (tense) – was he in fact lodging there? If so, would it be better to put "Pulman was lodging at the home of his patron"? (prefer the word 'home' to 'house')
  • What exactly does "patron" mean here? Was Lampard sponsoring him in some way?
  • According to Williams & Gadsby, "[Pulman] was lucky enough to receive the backing of a Bristol confectioner and baker named Bill Lampard... [who] let Pulman stay at his house"; Everton 2012 has "[Pulman] lived at the home, with billiard room attached, of his wealthy patron, Bill Lampard, who launched him into the professional game." Lowe says that Lampard "agreed to sponsor" Pulman. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a baker from Bristol and..." > "who was a baker from Bristol and..." (without the "who was", it sounds as if we're listing three people: (1) Bill Lampard, (2) a baker from Bristol, and (3) a member of the BACC.
  • "Lampard built a billiard room" > "Lampard built a billiard room in his house" – or did he just "set up" a billiard room in his house?
  • added "at his house" - Lowe has "set up a billiards room"; Williams & Gadsby have "built a special billiards room"; Everton says the room was "attached" but doesn't mention it being made for Pulman BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clive Everton claims" > "alleges" might be a more fitting word here?
  • "seeking a level of consistency" > "in pursuit of a level of consistency" or just "pursuing"?
  • "due to influenza" – did he just have bad cold symptoms or was it a full-blown case of the flu?
  • The Scotsman has "due to influenza". Birmingham Daily Post for 27 January 1951 has "suffering from influenza"
  • The round-robin-with-points-handicaps format for the News of the World tournament had already been used for the Sunday Empire News Tournament the previous year, so the format description should perhaps be moved up to that previous event. Having said that, I can't see an easy way of doing it, so maybe leave it alone for now...

I've either commented above, or addressed the points about Early professional career. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:54, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

World snooker championship contests (1955–1968)
  • Shouldn't Jack Rea be Jackie Rea? Or was he referred to as Jack back in the day?
  • Newspapers.com has 114 matches for "'Jack Rea' snooker" in 1957, and none for "'Jackie Rea' snooker". BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest changing "along with Williams, Fred Davis, and Jack Rea," to "along with Fred Davis, Rea and Williams," (surnames in alphabetical order)
  • Should Blackheath be linked to distinguish it from the ones in London or Surrey? (there's even one in Australia!)
  • Is it necessary to mention that he took Harold Phillips out to lunch? Could just say "after talks with..." or "after an approach to..." the BA&CC chairman Harold Phillips.
  • "on a challenge basis" – might it be useful to link to [[Challenge (competition)|challenge]]
  • Is it accurate to say they "spun a coin"? – coins are usually "tossed" or "flipped". Pls check source.
  • Everton (2012) has "At one rural venue, no spectators showed up. Instead of playing, the players spun a coin." BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I notice that in the whole of this section, there's no link through to 1964–68 World Snooker Championships – that could do with working in somehow. One option might be to link it through "The championship was reinstated", i.e. [[1964–68 World Snooker Championships|The championship was reinstated]]...?
  • "between Pulman, the winner of the 1957 Championship, and Fred Davis" – it almost looks here as if we are listing three people: (1) Pulman, (2) the winner of the 1957 Championship, and (3) Fred Davis! Suggest changing to "between Pulman, who had won the most recent championship in 1957, and the challenger Fred Davis."
  • "Pulman defeated Davis 19–16 at Burroughes Hall in April 1964." – suggest appending: "to retain the title that he had claimed seven years earlier."
  • "in the deciding frame" – might be more impactful to change this to "in a final-frame decider"?
  • "where Pulman won by 25 matches to 22" – would it be ok to say "where Pulman won 25 of their 47 matches"?
  • "by seeing off the challenge of Eddie Charlton." – not sure about the phrase 'seeing off' – could this be changed to something like "by fending off a challenge from Eddie Charlton"? Or maybe that's not an improvement.

Amended the World snooker championship contests (1955–1968) section as suggested, apart from where comments above indicate otherwise. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:31, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Later career and retirement (1968–1998)
  • Suggest changing: "In 1967, Pulman had toured snooker clubs as promotional work for..." to "In 1967, Pulman had spent time touring snooker clubs doing promotional work for..." and where were the clubs? All over the UK, or just England, or the London area?
  • Amended. I've added "across the Midlands" as it's consistent with Everton's article and I didn't find any mentions of venues outside that area. (Meanwhile, Jack Karnehm undertook a 27-venue Engish billiards tour in Guyana, and Fred Davis and Rex Williams were using tubular metal cues "for all their tournaments and exhibitions"). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The good attendances for the championship match" > "The good attendances for the Pulman/Charlton match" (possible alternative way of referring to it?)
  • "This championship is generally regarded as..." > "The 1969 event, with its updated format, is generally regarded as..."
  • "recovered in time" – might this be characterised as fully or sufficiently recovered in time?
  • The Park Drive 2000 was a series of tournaments, so it might be more accurate to put "the Park Drive 2000 series, which began less than two weeks later."
  • "an invitational event for four world champions." > "an invitational event with four world champions in competition." ?
  • First two sentences of 2nd paragraph appear to be unsourced. Are they both covered by Everton 1985, pp. 53–55? If so, maybe need to put ref tags at end of each sentence? I was actually thinking the 1st sentence ("Unable to defend his title, ...") might be best placed at end of 1st paragraph anyway.
  • I added the extra instances for the ref, and moved that sentence. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "After 1977, he was unable to win another World Championship match." – Would it be possible to work in that he entered the championship up to and including 1981, but didn't win any matches? e.g. "After 1977, he was unable to win another World Championship match, although he continued to enter until 1982 when he had to withdraw..." + reason? + source?
  • I think it's more usual to say "declared bankrupt" rather than "adjudged bankrupt".
  • "with debts of £5,916" > "with personal debts of £5,916" (assuming he didn't have any failed business ventures?)
  • Do you want to put any equivalences in this article (using the inflation template)? Debts of £5,916 are equivalent to almost 32 grand in today's money, and his £400 prize money for the 1948 Sunday Empire News Tournament is equivalent to over 15 grand these days.
  • "Pulman and his wife Frances divorced around 1978..." – should really be placed before the bit about his bankruptcy in 1979. Then you could change the sentence "By this time he was recently divorced, suffering from severe motivational problems and living in a hotel in Bromley" to just "By this time, he was living in a hotel in Bromley and suffering from severe motivational problems."
  • "He retired from professional play in 1981..." – could you add something to this sentence about him having to pull out of the 1981 world championship (which turned out to be his last one) and why?
  • Why was he hospitalised for six months? Surely not just for breaking his leg. The London bus incident must have been quite serious, so it might be worth explaining a bit more here if you can.
  • Amended here and in the next para - not sure where the "six months" came from, so I removed it. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to work as a television commentator" – do you mean snooker commentator?
  • Suggest moving sentence about his book to start of 4th paragraph, so it fits in chronologically: "His book... was revised and published as Tackle Snooker in 1974." followed by "Pulman and his wife Frances divorced around 1978; they had three children." followed by "On 7 February 1979, he was declared bankrupt with personal debts of £5,916. By this time, he was living in a hotel in Bromley and suffering from severe motivational problems." Then the chronology's right.
  • I agree with HurricaneHiggins, I'd like to know more about the length of his commentating career, and what he got up to in the later years before his death, but I see that you've noted above that there's not much more you can squeeze out of the sources. It would be nice to see the last couple of paragraphs expanded slightly if possible.

Amended the Later career and retirement (1968–1998) section as suggested, apart from where comments above indicate otherwise. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Playing style and influence
  • I sometimes think it's best to write out simple conversions without using the convert template, because you can put non-breaking spaces in then (not provided by the template). {{convert|6|ft|2|in|cm}} > 6{nbsp here}feet 2{nbsp here}inches (188{nbsp here}cm) ... the template has already done the conversion, so you know the cm figure is accurate.
  • The clause starting "and adapted a stance..." needs to be broken up a bit, e.g. "and adapted a stance ... close together, meaning that more weight..."
  • "This enabled him to use his height and reach to his advantage while playing." > "This enabled him to take full advantage of his height and his reach while playing shots."
  • "In their 2005 book about world snooker champions," > "In their 2005 book, Masters of the Baize," (sounds more formal?)
  • ...wrote of Pulman that "If I ever > ...wrote of Pulman: "If I ever
  • "and a long-time snooker commentator" > "and was a long-time snooker commentator"
  • I tend to think it's best to give players' names in full when first mentioned in any new section: "Alex Higgins, the world champion in 1972 and 1982"; "praised by Ray Reardon"; "John Spencer admired"
  • Is it necessary to give the details of the Davis/Pulman match? You could just say something like "Steve Davis, who met Pulman in a *first-round* match at the 1977 Pontins Open, observed how..." (or whatever round it was!)
  • It was the last-32, which Davis refers to as the "first round proper", but even Snooker Scene doesn't say which round that was, so I've used "who met Pulman in a match at" BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why were the conditions imperfect? Is there anything you could add that might clarify what Pulman and Reardon adapted to there?
  • Amended, as David ony talks about the quality of the tables. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't need semi-colon before end clause, just put "...rather than bemoaning them, and he found this to be a valuable lesson."

Amended the Playing style and influence section as suggested, apart from where comments above indicate otherwise. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Career finals
  • Note [m] should surely read: "Pulman won the match at 37–28."
  • The 1955 match-play championship was won when the score reached 37–34, but this is not noted.
  • You forgot to note that the winning score for the October 1964 match was 37–23.
  • You also forgot to note that the winning score for the 1968 challenge match was 37–28.
  • I'd prefer to expand the notes to read: "?? won the match when the score reached ??–??." but I don't really mind either way!
  • At first sight, it's weird that there are two entries for 1964 and three for 1965. Might benefit from adding a note for the two 1964 WSC matches: "These were two separate challenge matches played in London in April 1964 and October 1964." and for the three 1965 WSC matches: "These were three separate challenge matches played in South Africa in 1965."
  • Amended. I've gone for a simpler note about challenges, with longer notes for those that were a series of matches. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:00, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Were there any dead frames played in the 1970 final that should be noted?
References
  • Refs 1 & 53 are dup cites (Independent obituary); refs 46 & 90 are dup cites (Snooker Scene: Higgins in top gear at Ford tournament); refs 49 & 84 are dup cites (Snooker Scene: Official rankings August 1976)
  • Refs. 15, 86, 87,88 lead to a British Newspaper Archive sign-in page so not particularly useful for most readers. Can the articles be found via Newspapers.com instead (like the two Guardian articles, refs. 47 & 52)? Are any of the other articles available to view, e.g. all the Times citations, The Scotsman (ref.18), The Age (ref.78), The Canberra Times (ref.79), etc.
  • Refs 15 and 86 (Western Daily Press) are available via British Newspaper Archive, so what about the other Western Daily Press refs (11 and 67a)?
  • Ref 88 (Birmingham Daily Post) is available via British Newspaper Archive, so what about the other Birmingham Daily Post refs (30, 41, 68, 75)?
  • Suggest unlinking The Glasgow Herald work param in refs 21–34 and 32–35 for consistency (none of the other newspaper work params are linked).
  • Is it possible to highlight SNOOKER rather than Swimming in the newspaper snippet for ref.35?
  • Is it possible to highlight SNOOKER rather than Weaver's Success in the newspaper snippet for ref.37?
  • Of the numerous Snooker Scene citations, only one (ref.51) cites Clive Everton as editor (inconsistent).
  • Ref.66: Is this book the same as this? It's compiled (authored) by Reg Perrin and published by BBC, isbn 0-563-20293-9. I can't find an Ian Morrison version.
  • No, it's the magazine Pot Black, not associated with the BBC. I've added the ISSN number. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:36, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've added links wherever I could, including swapping a couple of references. I couldn't find another online source for the winning margin against Williams (17 October 1964 source; other papers report the post-dead-frames score of 38-22); I didn't manage to repoint that link from the Swimming heading, which I think is due to the quality of the scan. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:09, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Making progress. Well, you know I find it impossible to not be thorough, right!?... Rodney Baggins (talk) 20:16, 22 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Benny, one more section to check and we're done. I've been doing a bit of copyediting along the way too, which seemed easier while noting down my specific comments/queries for your attention, so you can use your own judgement for those. Rodney Baggins (talk) 22:41, 23 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All done now – sorry it took me so long. I do hope this helps rather than hinders. Rodney Baggins (talk) 23:08, 24 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for the thorough review, Rodney Baggins, I really appreciate it. Please let me have any further feedback once you've had a chance to digest my changes and replies. (Skip to 1:03 here for a glimpse of Pulman that you might not have seen before.) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:09, 27 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Rodney Baggins, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:46, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild and BennyOnTheLoose: Hi, I'm just going over it now. Looking good apart from one or two minor tweaks that I will note here later. Yes, it will be a Support from me. Regards, Rodney Baggins (talk) 14:32, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Final comments
  • You said The Times obituary is the source for his full name; I would quite like to see that tagged directly after his full name at start of Early life section.
  • There are quite a lot of multi-tags that could do with swapping round, unless the first is specifically more useful as a source for the tagged material, e.g. [4][3] > [3][4] in Early life section. Also [7][4]; [10][3]; [47][42]; [53][17][54]; [1][54]; [60][57]; [72][17]; [23][19]; [42][17].
  • I commented above that, while he seemed keen on billiards as a youngster, there's no further mention of it after the Early life section. Maybe amend next section heading from 'Career' to 'Snooker career', to make it clear that there's no billiards included in his main career? Just a thought – purely up to you!
  • You didn't respond to these comments for Later career and retirement (1968–1998):
    • I think it's more usual to say "declared bankrupt" rather than "adjudged bankrupt".
    • "with debts of £5,916" > "with personal debts of £5,916" (assuming he didn't have any failed business ventures?)
    • Do you want to put any equivalences in this article (using the inflation template)? Debts of £5,916 are equivalent to almost 32 grand in today's money, and his £400 prize money for the 1948 Sunday Empire News Tournament is equivalent to over 15 grand these days.
  • I was going to suggest that note [h] needs a citation, but looking back at what it's referring to, I realise that wouldn't be straightforward. It's just there to point out that the QF was his first match because there were only 8 players in those tournaments. I'm not sure if the note needs to be reworded to make that clear, or just removed altogether?
  • I've amended the note and added citations. I think that "QF" suggests some progression in the tournament,and so a note is worthwhile. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:56, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note [k] might be wrong. It says the winning score was 37–31, but according to wiki article, the winning score was 37–34 (to Fred Davis) and there were two dead frames played, bringing the final score to 38–35. Or maybe the main article has it wrong?
  • The source used in the 1955 article does have 37–34, but the source I used here has Davis leading 36-30, losing the first frame of the next session, but then "taking the second... to become champion in the 68th frame of the week." I'll check other sources. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note [t] is incorrect. His opponent in the final was Reardon not Davis.
  • The page numbers appear to be wrong for refs. 49 and 92.
  • The printed page number for ref 49 is 6. I've added an edition parameter but I'm not sure as it seems to be a sports ("Pink Final" Special") sold separately. For 92, the preceding page in the scan in 9, and the fron cover states "Ten Pages". The Newspapers.com scan includes different editions. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:41, 1 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for adding in all the newspaper clippings – I think they're fascinating! Rodney Baggins (talk) 23:13, 29 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Update. I'll have one final look at sources before amending the final score in the 1955 World Professional Match-play Championship final at that article and in other places such as here. I'll also rearrange the citations into numerical order. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose from Amakuru[edit]

First of all, I feel bad coming in to oppose here (and particularly since you pinged me into the discussion), as I appreciate a lot of good work has gone into this article, and I certainly applaud the work done by BennyOnTheLoose in bringing it to the state it's in now, which is very solid GA-level. The project is better for this and whether this passes or fails, I appreciate the effort that's gone in. This isn't a judgement on the editor(s) who've written this at all.

But unfortunately I'm going to have to oppose for the exact same reasons as I opposed at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Steve Davis/archive1. This is an eight-time world champion, presumably one of the greats of the game, similar to Davis or indeed more modern players such as Mark Selby. Yet when I run the page size tool, I find this article weighs in at only 15 kB (2664 words) of readable prose size. That's in comparison to Selby's GA-level article, which has 39 kB (6804 words) of prose and another FA-level snooker bio John Spencer (snooker player), which has 30 kB (5147 words). Ultimately, the main difference seems to be that articles such as Selby's have detailed blow-by-blow coverage of each and every season, with the highs and lows, and certainly a whole paragraph dedicated to each of his world title wins, whereas those for Pulman and Davis seem to only highlight the broad brush and big achievements, many lacking significant detail (for example his first defence of the world title is given one sentence "Pulman defeated Davis 19–16 at Burroughes Hall in April 1964 to retain the title that he had claimed seven years earlier".

Now I fully get the underlying reasons for this - Selby's career has played out int the Wikipedia age, and for better or worse, that means fans constantly updating with events as they happen... whereas for a player from the pre-internet age, we're reliant on bringing it all in from scratch. Hence why one of the all-time great tennis players Pete Sampras has an article that's 25% shorter than the less decorated but more recent player John Isner. I get that it's a lot harder to source the same level of information from sources for a bygone player and would likely require searches of resources that aren't just available online.

But this is FAC, nobody ever pretends it's easy... and I don't think we'd be doing our job properly if we nodded through articles of vastly different length and structure, simply because of how easy it is to find the relevant sourcing. Criteria 1b and 1c tells us that the article must be "comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context" and that it is "well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature". If we are to achieve those, we must delve into the sources of the days when Pulman played, and we must dig out the level of information which we see for Selby. Unless of course you can show conclusively that such sourcing simply doesn't exist, but I'm a bit sceptical on that point. So apologies once again, and I hold out the hope that this one or Davis will one day achieve the comprehensive I know they can!  — Amakuru (talk) 14:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Amakuru, I invited you to contribute precisely becasue you had opposed at Davis' article - challenge is good! (Pulman might agree). Of course more can be added, but there just wasn't the anywhere near the level of coverage during Pulman's heyday. The result of a world final would typically get one short paragraph in most papers. Due to the dispute between the B&SCC and the PBPA, professional competitions got very little coverage in the 50s and early 60s in The Billiard Player. There were also fewer (albeit often longer) matches in Pulman's day. According to Cuetracker, whch we have to take with a pinch or more of salt, Pulman played 265 matches (5,920 frames) over 36 years, while Selby has played 1,547 matches (11,039 frames) over 26 years. Spencer played 433 matches (4,268 frames) over 29 years; many of which were after the mid-70s when coverage really picked up. Are there any books or other sources that you think are missing from consideration? I'm not sure how I can show that sourcing does't exist; but if you look at results on the British Newspaper Archive or Newspapers.com I think you will find that many of them offer little beyond scores. I'll see if I can add some more about the more important tournaments in Pulman's career. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:06, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, looks like Spencer's article is a bit of an outlier in terms of number of words for snooker bio FACs. According to the Page Size tool we have Griffiths (2590 words), Donaldson (2608 words), Thorburn (2854 words), Reardon (3262 words), and Spencer (5147 words). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:16, 4 March 2024 (UTC) (By the way, I would expect articles on Steve Davis and Alex Higgins to be longer, as there is so much more commentary available on both of them. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2024 (UTC))[reply]
Amakuru I added a little on the April 1964 match. Are there any others that you think are noticably lacking coverage, given my comments above? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:27, 12 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Amakuru, any more to come? Gog the Mild (talk) 18:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild and BennyOnTheLoose: ooh I'm very sorry, I did get the pings above but was out and about and then it kind of slipped my mind. I'll try to circle back to this in the next couple of days and see if I can marry up the content with how I think an FA ought to look, in the context of what's available about Pulman. My general point is that I'm uncomfortable with the idea that we should have two FAs on similar sorts of subjects with vastly different levels of detail. I guess nothing's perfect and it does happen, particularly if someone's poured what might be considered excessive detail into something (is Spencer's article an example of that?) The sourcing may mitigate that point, but the analysis needs to be thorough... Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:58, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Amakuru, have you had a chance to take another look? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 17:29, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs: - what do you recommend me to do? It's true that I don't have a whole plethora of sources to show that the article is definitively not a representative summary of the literature, and it's not easy to access those at present even if I had the time to do so, as the British Library has been effectively out of action for the past six months. But I'm also not particularly minded to withdraw my oppose, as I genuinely don't think this is long or detailed enough to be considered an FA-level summary of this individual and his long career. For me, the career section should have detailed analysis of what he did every year. And if he genuinely didn't play tournaments for large parts of said years, then that should be indicated, with sourcing. It's a nice article and definitely a GA, the nominator has put in good work, but we don't hand out FA badges just because nominators are good editors, it needs to meet all of the criteria I'd have thought? Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 18:20, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru I stand by my earlier comments about precedent with other snooker bio featured articles, and number of matches played, but now that the British Library Catalogue is back online (for most types of source, including books), is there any particular source you feel that has been neglected? I have access to a number of books immediately and can summarise their coverage of Pulman (see my Library). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:34, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From Clive Everton's The Embassy Book of World Snooker (1993): "[In 1954/55] Nobody cared very much what the results were in professional snooker" (p.24); "Little notice was taken of any of Pulman's first five title defences, and not very much more of his sixth ... There was no snooker coverage in the national press and in the snooker world itself the talk tended to be of a new generation of amateur stars" (p.28); "[in 1968] Press coverage remained virtually non-existent" (p.29). Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 12:16, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sammi Brie (Support)[edit]

Going to give the copy a bath and provide a non-snooker-literate POV on the article.

  • "Pulman became a television commentator towards the end of his playing career, and retired from competitive play in 1981" Classic WP:CINS issue. There is one subject: Pulman. Remove the comma.
  • "In 1929, Ernest Pulman sold his bakery and confectionery business and the family moved to Plymouth, where he bought a billiard hall with two tables." Add comma after "business"
  • "John Pulman started playing billiards at the age of nine, and made his first billiards century break aged twelve. In his teenage years he also played snooker, and participated in local league competitions." More commas to excise
  • "In 1938, Pulman entered the British Boys Billiards Championship, but left his cue on the train on his way to the event at Burroughes Hall." Another CinS
  • "He lost his opening match in 1950, and withdrew from the following year's championship due to influenza when trailing 14–22 against Fred Davis in their semi-final match." Another CinS. Are mid-match withdrawls for illness normal?
  • Withdrawals for illness are uncommon, perhaps because they tend to lead to a loss of income from prize money (and, in 1950, loss of income from gate receipts). I think it's worth including as occasionally players withdrew for other reasons ("business reasons" is one rather vague one I remember seeing reported.) BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was runner-up in the 1950/1951 edition, and won in 1953/1954." CinS
  • "He defeated Rex Williams 22–15 in the quarter-finals and Alec Brown 37–24 in the semi-finals, before losing 35–38 to Fred Davis in the final, which was played at Blackpool Tower Circus." Remove comma after "semi-finals"
  • "In the semi-finals, Pulman was level at 12–12 with Williams before winning the match 19–16. In the final, he trailed Jack Rea at 2–4, 5–8 and 8–11, before equalising at 11–11." Another comma to excise after 8–11
  • Is "noticable" a correct British English spelling?
  • "The match was played over 73 frames, and took place from 12 to 17 October at Burroughes Hall." CinS
  • "He extended his lead to 31–17 after the fourth day of play, and won the match on the fifth day by taking a 37–23 winning lead." maybe "He extended his lead to 31–17 after the fourth day of play, winning the match on the fifth day by taking a 37–23 lead."
  • "Pulman eventually reached a winning lead of 37–28, and finished 39–34 ahead after dead frames"
  • "He reached the final of the 1970 World Championship, but lost 33–37 to Ray Reardon" CinS
  • "In October 1972, he was retrieved, unconscious, from a road traffic collision, but he had fully recovered in time to play in the Park Drive 2000 tournament that was held less than two weeks later." maybe remove "had"
  • "His opponent, Spencer, took a 5–2 lead, before Pulman won five of the next seven frames to level the match at 7–7 and force a deciding frame." Drop last comma
  • "After 1977, he was unable to win another World Championship match, although he continued to enter until 1982 when he had to withdraw because he had not sufficiently recovered after his leg was broken in five places when he was hit by a London bus in October 1981." Very long sentence. Consider rewording. Also consider layout with the bus item...which really should be the end of the career.
  • "Fred Davis reflected that Pulman's impatience and lapses in concentration had probably cost him frames in their world championship finals in the mid-1950s, and that as Pulman became more patient in his play, he became a stronger opponent" Move the comma from after "mid-1950s" back to after "that". You have a CinS error and an incomplete appositive.
  • "11 year" hyphenate
  • " humour "did a tremendous salvage job for the game when it needed it most." " logical quote for a sentence fragment demands period out of quotes
  • "Alex Higgins, the world champion in 1972 and 1982, whose popularity helped make snooker a growing sport in the 1970s and 1980s, wrote" consider dropping the comma after 1982 to have a longer, unified appositive.

The links to terms of art are good, and I wasn't left wanting. Just a bunch of CinS and a few places that baffle me (bus). Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 04:26, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks, Sammi Brie. Hopefully I've addressed all of your points, but please do check the "Fred Davis reflected.." one in particular. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 11:55, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. All my copy issues are addressed satisfactorily. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:49, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

Reviewing this version, spotcheck upon request. Kinda think that with a name this generic we need better citations than "John Pulman". The Times. 31 December 1998. p. 25." Why is #74 formatted differently from the others? Are Alex Higgins, Spencer, John and Fred Davis Alex Higgins, John Spencer (snooker player) and Fred Davis (snooker player)? What make "Davis, Steve (2016). Interesting: My Autobiography. London: Ebury. ISBN 978-0-09-195865-7." and "Hayton, Eric; Dee, John (2004). The CueSport Book of Professional Snooker: The Complete Record & History. Rose Villa Publications. ISBN 978-0-9548549-0-4." a reliable source? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:27, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks for taking on the source review, Jo-Jo Eumerus. I've made some initial replies below which could need some actions after your advice. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 20:29, 8 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • What should be added in the example of The Times John Pulman article? (It is not available via Wikipedia Library or free online sources. I have access to it through a library subsription to The Times Digital Archive.) No author is stated. I suppose one option would be to add in the location as London, to avoid any confusion with other publications listed at The Times (disambiguation).
    Some additional information so that it can be more easily told apart from other newspapers with that name. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 08:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Jo-Jo Eumerus I've added locations for The Times, The Independent and The Guardian references. Are there any others that need amending? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't think so. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 14:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ref 74 - as multiple sources were used (for the different editions of the tournament), I used WP:CITEBUNDLE rather than having something like [74][75][76][77][78][79][80] appear to the reader.
  • Yes, Alex Higgins, Spencer, John and Fred Davis are Alex Higgins, John Spencer (snooker player) and Fred Davis (snooker player).
  • Steve Davis's Interesting: My Autobiography is only used to support "Steve Davis, who met Pulman in a match at the 1977 Pontins Open, observed how Pulman and Reardon both adapted to the poor quality of the snooker tables rather than complaining, and he found this to be a valuable lesson." The book is published by Ebury, an imprint of Penguin Books.
  • The CueSport Book of Professional Snooker (Hayton and Dee) is one of the standard reference works for professional snooker, in my opinion. CueSport was a UK magazine that was published from around 2000 to 2009. John Dee, who wrote the history sections, was the snooker editor of CueSport and a correspondent for The Daily Telegraph and other newspapers. The bulk of the book's 1000+ pages consists of statistics, compiled by Hayton, including player-by-player results histories. The book has been used as a source for featured articles including John Spencer (snooker player) and Ray Reardon.

Hey Jo-Jo Eumerus, do you have any follow-up on the Benny's responses and the source review? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's all. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 16:14, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SC

Just one comment from me:

  • "In October 1972, he was retrieved, unconscious, from a road traffic collision": "retrieved" is an odd word to use in this context - makes him sound like an old pair of gloves! - SchroCat (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
BennyOnTheLoose, Any thoughts on a replacement word here? - SchroCat (talk) 19:41, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SchroCat: apologies for the delay, and many thanks for reviewing. The Everton & Silverton (1973) source has "was carried unconscious from a car crash". I've amended it to "rescued, unconscious," in the text but I am, of course, open to better suggestions. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 08:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/John_Pulman/archive1&oldid=1221029071"