Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Josephine Butler/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13:58, 24 September 2016 [1].

Josephine Butler[edit]

Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Josephine Butler is a fascinating and important character in the history of women's rights. A tireless and forceful feminist and social reformer, she campaigned for women's suffrage, the right to better education for women, the end of coverture in British law, the end of child prostitution, against the human trafficking of young women and children into European prostitution and ending the Contagious Diseases Acts. This article has gone through a complete re-write recently and hugely profitable PR; many thanks to Cassianto, Tim riley, Ian Rose, Sagaciousphil, Brianboulton, Dr. Blofeld, Nikkimaria and Iazyges for all their help and suggestions. Any and all comments welcome. – SchroCat (talk) 20:19, 28 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Had my say at PR and have been moved and impressed by this article. Meets the FA criteria in my view. If, as I suspect, this is a valedictory review of a valedictory nomination it would be hard to imagine a worthier candidate on which to sign off. Tim riley talk 18:11, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Tim: your efforts are, as they always have been, absolutely wonderful, and I thank you for them. - Gavin (talk) 18:42, 29 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support I also went through the article at the start of the peer review; I've read through it again now after the adjustments and am happy to support promotion. I spot checked over half a dozen refs (currently #12, 14, 29, 30, 50, 85, 97 and 116) and they are accurately reflected (I did make a couple of tweaks) save for one minor query on ref #116: Jordan has 10 August 1885? The WP article on the act gives 14 Aug although it's not well referenced and after a very brief search I can't manage to work out the correct date. SagaciousPhil - Chat 09:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks SagaciousPhil for your careful consideration both at PR and here. I've added Mather as another ref for the 14th; a general search shows that seems to be more commonly accepted (including this, this and these). Maybe Jordan was having a slightly off day when she wrote that: the rest of her work is in depth and excellent, as I am sure you know. Cheers - Gavin (talk) 15:54, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for checking that. Indeed, like all the other references used in the article, Jordan's biography is a reliable, quality source; looks as if it was a simple typo in the book (we can all manage those!). Thanks for all the work you've put into this article; it captures the true essence of this phenomenal woman. SagaciousPhil - Chat 16:06, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:George_Butler.jpg: per the tag, you'll need to include in the description what steps you've taken to try to identify the author.
  • Same with File:Josephine_Butler_-_Pontefract_meeting_notice.png,
  • File:William_Ewert_Gladstone_in_later_life.jpg
  • File:Florence_Booth.jpg has an error tag

Thanks Nikkimaria, these should all be sorted now. Cheers – Gavin (talk) 20:16, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN142: what kind of source is this?
  • Compare FNs 143 and 144
  • Check alphabetization of Sources. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks Nikkimaria: these all sorted (I hope). Images to follow tomorrow. – Gavin (talk) 21:14, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I did the heavy work at peer review, but found a few further points on my latest read-through:

  • This sentence: "Josephine campaigned for women's rights, including the right to the vote and have a better education" reads a little oddly, partly because the right to vote and the right to a better education are different things, whereas "the right to vote and have a better education" links them. The insertion of "to" after "and" would resolve this.
  • "The petition, supported by the MP and philosopher John Stuart Mill, did not pass when the bill became law." Petitions do not "pass". Suggested rewording "The petition, which was supported by the MP and philosopher John Stuart Mill, was ignored when the bill became law."
  • "the pamphlet was published in serial form in The Shield – That should probably br "re-published" as you've just said it was published as a 56-page pamphlet
  • "and wrote to The Shield to inform readers" – don't need the last three words, they are implied.

I also made a few punc and prose adjustment you can check out. Overall, fine work. Brianboulton (talk) 21:36, 3 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Brian, all tweaked per your suggestions. Many thanks – Gavin (talk) 19:50, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

A few thoughts:

  • I did originally note the lack of a mention of the homosexuality-related content of the Criminal Law Amendment Act 1885, which I now see is in a footnote. I wonder if we know of anything Butler said/thought about this? I do feel strongly that this part of the act belongs in the article; I suspect you've gotten the balance right by including it in a footnote.
  • Mathers doesn't make any reference to her thoughts in that direction (except that she felt sorry for Oscar Wilde!) – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've checked through Jordan and two others, and there is no reference to her opinions on homosexuality. - Gavin (talk) 08:01, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm surprised that there is no mention of her Women's Work and Women's Culture; I understand that this was very influential, and it's still in print today. Relatedly, I wonder if a link to her bibliography in the lead would be a good move.
  • Again I'll have a look at Jordan and some other sources Mathers makes no reference to it at all. – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, I've checked through Jordan and two others, and there is no reference to this one. I've added a line in the lead to her writing, and I'll go through the sources and the article again to see if there are any obvious gaps where we can ease another written work in without overloading it. - Gavin (talk) 08:10, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The petition, supported by the MP and philosopher John Stuart Mill, did not pass when the bill became law." I'm afraid I'm struggling to understand what this sentence means.
  • Yes, Brian B also pointed this out too: I've tweaked this: does it look ok to you? – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, clearer. I think I misunderstood bill (which is not good on my part, but there you go); I think I find the use of reform jarring to describe a change to something that hasn't even been instituted yet- that may have been part of the confusion. Josh Milburn (talk) 02:46, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • The blockquote in "First attempt to repeal of the Contagious Diseases Acts; 1869–74" doesn't flow that well from the text- try reading it aloud. I think removing the "they" in the quote would fix the issue.
  • I've gone a slightly different route: does that look OK to you? – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like it: much better, thanks - Gavin (talk) 08:10, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As at 2016" Would "as of" (or {{as of}}) not be more typical?
  • "As at" is, I believe, more correct than the more American "as of". – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Daggers, Jenny; Neal, Diana, eds. (2006). Sex, Gender, and Religion: Josephine Butler Revisited. New York: Peter Lang. ISBN 978-0-8204-8117-3." You should probably cite the particular chapter, here; unless you're citing the book as a whole ("for various facets of the debate, see") or attesting to its existence "she later published an edit collection...") particular chapters are surely more appropriate than the book as a whole. (It seems to be the introduction; there's nothing wrong with citing introductions as chapters.)
  • Introduction added – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Stroud, Glos: The History Press." Why the abbreviation?
  • Force of habit: now in full. – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concerning your Summers sources, if you have an issue number but no volume number, you should probably treat it as a volume number for the purposes of citation templates. (Also applies to Walkowitz 1982.)
  • Done this one too. – Gavin (talk) 21:59, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

An excellent article. Josh Milburn (talk) 16:11, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Josh: much appreciated! I need to do some work on a couple of the points, and I'll deal with them in the morning. Cheers – Gavin (talk) 21:51, 4 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support; a few outstanding questions (in particular, I think you could do a little more to mention her writings) but, overall, I think this article exemplary. Josh Milburn (talk) 02:46, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Josh. I'll add a little more on her writing. I've also put together Josephine Butler bibliography, which covers as much of her work as I could find sources for it. This The biography is at FLC at the moment. - Gavin (talk) 08:01, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]


Comments by Dudley

  • "In this role John promoted his cousin's political opinions locally, including of Catholic emancipation" The "of" does not sound right to me. Maybe "about" or "supporting".
  • "Despite the move, Josephine continued to mourn for Eva" This seems a non sequitur.
  • "In 1866 she was a signatory on a petition to amend the Reform Bill to widen the franchise to include women. The petition, which was supported by the MP and philosopher John Stuart Mill, was ignored when the bill became law." This does not sound quite right to me - surely the time when the petition should have been considered was during the passage of the bill, not when it became law.
  • Tweaked to "The petition, ... was ignored and the bill became law", which clarifies the point. - Gavin (talk) 13:36, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Josephine called it a "year of discouragement" where there was "deep depression in the work"." Maybe "when" instead of "where"
  • So the the British and Continental Federation for the Abolition of Prostitution campaigned to protect prostitutes' civil rights? It sounds a bit odd. In the note you say other versions of the name say it was against the government regulation of prostitution, which is quite different.
  • A fine article. Just a few minor points. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:34, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks Dudley, much appreciated indeed. Your points dealt with in these edits; please let me know if any need further attention. Cheers. - Gavin (talk) 13:36, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It does seem strange that there is doubt whether her society was to abolish prostitution or the government regulation of prostitution. Maybe someone in the nineteenth century accidentally left out "government regulation of" and writers have copied the mistake ever since! Dudley Miles (talk) 14:04, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree. The politics around prostitution is a strange beast, from the little I can make out of it. I watched a fascinating programme a week or so ago with Rupert Everett (himself a former sex worker) about the subject, why people do it and what their thoughts were about it: a huge variety of opinions, most of which were self-conflicting. - Gavin (talk) 14:32, 6 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just out of curiosity: why is she referred ro as Josephine here and not Butler or Grey? 77.20.251.243 (talk) 12:08, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi IP, and thanks for your comment. It follows a comment made at the PR. There is often a problem with the use of the surname for married women: to call her BUTLER through her pre-marriage years confuses most readers (particularly when she meets her husband, who we then have to use the first name for); to call her GREY is the same in reverse but worse, because she is known to history as Butler; to use both GREY in her younger years and BUTLER post marriage is confusing. This is the way we can keep the naming consistent throughout. (see Isabella Beeton and Bessie Braddock for other examples of this.) Cheers - Gavin (talk) 12:17, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense - perhaps leave a hatnote at the top of the article to clarify the usage? 77.20.251.243 (talk) 13:13, 9 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if we need to explain how people should be reading the page (and it would be an uncommon step to take on any article). What I'll do is to copy this thread onto the article talk page so that any future reader can see the question has been asked previously and can see the explanation for it. Cheers - Gavin (talk) 13:06, 11 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Is it possible I can look at this next Monday? I badly need a break right now and I can then commit my full attention to it.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:55, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Doc, of course: I'm sure it'll still be running in a week. Cheers – Gavin (talk) 10:21, 5 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'll look a bit later today.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:37, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Lede
  • "well-to-do and politically well-connected" -rep of "well", can you find a different initial word like affluent or something?

I will fully review this later today, promise, the sun is shining heavily on this room at the moment and it's hot!♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:05, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Early life
  • "John ensured that all his children were treated equally within the home, and would discuss politics and social issues with them; he also ensured that they met the various politically important visitors." - a bit wordy. Try something like "John treated his children equally within the home. He educated them in politics and social issues and exposed them to various politically important visitors".
  • As you're talking about John you don't need to say "Her father"
  • Link Naples
Liverpool
  • "By Easter 1867 she had established a second, larger home," -where was this? Same part of Liverpool?
  • The sources don't clarify unfortunately. – Gavin (talk) 19:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support Looks a pretty sound account of an important article. I've not really got my critical mindset on at the moment to give this much of a grilling but certainly looks an adequate account for FA.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:47, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks Doc – your suggestions all adopted. Cheers – Gavin (talk) 19:15, 15 September 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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