Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/June 1941 uprising in eastern Herzegovina/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 17:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC) [1].[reply]

June 1941 uprising in eastern Herzegovina[edit]

Nominator(s): Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 03:49, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this article for FAC because it recently met the MILHIST A-Class criteria, and I believe meets the FA criteria. It was a significant revolt that preceded the communist-led uprising that occurred in Yugoslavia post the launching of Operation Barbarossa, and was in direct response to massacres of Serbs in eastern Herzegovina carried out by the fascist Ustaše regime in the Axis puppet state—the Independent State of Croatia. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 03:49, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Independent_State_Of_Croatia_1941_Locator_Map.png: what source was used to create this map? Same with File:NezavisnaDrzavaHrvatskaDistricts.png, and the other two maps are sourced to the first one
    • Hi Nikki, I think the maps are sorted now. Can you have a look? XrysD has provided the source info used to create the maps. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 01:24, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Serbian_family_1941.jpg: direct image link is dead, and on what basis does the museum say this is PD? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:09, 18 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Nikki. The map(s) I'm following up with the creator on Commons. I've fixed the dead link on the family file, but all it says is that it is PD. The USHMM's generic copyright information is here. What do you think? On top of that, I think it would be a reasonable assumption that it would be PD-Yugoslavia/PD-SerbiaGov because Belgrade, Serbia is where the Museum is located. The former Museum of the Revolution and Nationalities of Yugoslavia has been absorbed by the Museum of Yugoslav History.
I'm not sure I follow your argument - the Museum of Yugoslav History may hold the picture (and they might have more specific information on its original source and copyright status), but they are likely not the copyright holder, and without further information I don't know that we can conclude that this is a government work either (SerbiaGov is more limited than USGov). Nikkimaria (talk) 04:30, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I see what you're saying, I've removed it. If I add anything in place of it, I'll run it past you first. Thanks for the image review. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 09:56, 21 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: G'day, the harvn script is identifying that there are no citations to Niehorster 2013. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 20:48, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Thanks Rupert! Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 22:33, 7 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tezero[edit]

Not a big MILHIST guy, so I reckon I'd be of some help here. A few initial comments:

  • Is "NDH" a commonly known term? In English, moreover? I'd prefer simply seeing it referred to as "Croatia" if this isn't contextually ambiguous for another reason.
    • G'day, thanks for your comments. The use of plain "Croatia" to refer to the NDH, a fascist puppet state that pursued genocidal policies towards the Serbs, Roma and Jews living on its territory, is considered POV, as it equates the modern state with the fascist one.
      • Fair enough. I'm well aware that the former Yugoslav, Serbo-Croatian-speaking (well, in the eyes of most linguists) countries have rivalries that would make the rap world jealous, and I'm not trying to support one side or the other... or the other other, so please point out if anything I suggest leans that way. Tezero (talk) 03:57, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • What's the Ustaše?
    • the fascist and extreme nationalist organisation that ruled the NDH. It is linked, do you see a need to explain it further in the lead?
  • What's a gendarmerie?
    • a paramilitary police. I've added a link to the lead.
  • The intro ought to cover the uprising's aftermath a little, especially considering its decent detail of the other sections.
  • "ambushed a truckload of Italians" - I'm not sure I see the significance. Were they Italian soldiers? Diplomats? Reporters? Accordionists? Pizza chefs?
    • soldiers, fixed.
  • And by "the Italians", do you mean Italy as a nation, the group this small band was a part of, or just the small band itself?
    • The Italian quasi-occupation forces, I've tweaked it.
  • The intro also doesn't give a single mention of what kinds of weapons were used. I'm an American; I need guns and blood with everything - and with the gory details, if ya don't mind! It is rather odd, though, to explain this much about the logistics of the skirmish and nothing about what it was actually like down there.

Tezero (talk) 02:58, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the motivation, but I'm not sure that specifying the actual weapons used is necessary or even desirable in this case. The frontline WWII Yugoslav rifle was the 7.92mm Mauser bolt-action M24 series made under licence in Yugoslavia, and the reservists were issued a locally-converted Austrian 7.92mm Mannlicher M95 series rifle of WWI vintage. Nearly all the troops that just went home after the April war would have been equipped with one of those rifles. Also, Yugoslav society was pretty weaponised at this stage, and there would have been a lot of civilian weapon types used by the rebels, from shotguns to single-shot rifles. So far as machine guns were concerned, the Yugoslavs had a huge range of automatic weapons they had acquired from available sources between the wars. I have never seen a source that specified the weapons that were used in the June revolt. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 08:35, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, at least you can specify that they were using rifles, as opposed to, I don't know, machine guns or tanks. I'm sure some source specifies that much. Tezero (talk) 20:28, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
It is actually mentioned (as an Italian assessment) in the 29–30 June section. Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:27, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, moving on:

  • Does battalion need to be linked?
    • I think so, not everyone knows what one is.
  • I'd prefer if Background and Prelude were split up into at least a couple of subsections each, especially as Background contains a few gargantuan paragraphs.
    • Done.
  • "threw their bodies into a nearby pit" - either simply state "sinkhole" or delink
    • Done.
  • Please link "Muslims" somewhere, perhaps to an article like "Islam in Bosnia" (haven't checked to see if that exists).
    • Bosniaks, done.
  • The section 27-28 June doesn't have the best flow imaginable; the first paragraph is hugely larger than the second, and every one of them except the last starts with "On such and such a day/time, such and such happened."
    • Para split.
  • Also split the paragraph beginning with "After the relief of Nevesinje".
    • Done.
  • Same with the single paragraph in Aftermath, especially because that constitutes the entire section.
    • Done.

I'll be honest, the subject matter is very dry to me so I wasn't reading this in depth. I'll try to give a few more detailed comments later. Tezero (talk) 20:28, 27 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • "military command areas" - ???
    • Added link
  • "urged to Italians" - awkward phrasing
    • absolutely, bizarre. Fixed.
  • "a similar committee was formed in eastern Herzegovina" - what ethnic group? More Montenegrins? Eastern Herzegovinans? All Herzegovinans? And would they have been okay with joining the other pan-Montenegrin movement? Basically, similar in what way?
    • in that they were separatists, have expanded on it. Let me know what you think?
  • "link the region to that city" - ???
    • have tried to clarify.
  • "This was a measure that had already been implemented against Serbs by the Germans" - This doesn't necessarily have to go, but why is it relevant?
    • establishes precedent, have expanded slightly
  • "Professor Alija Šuljak" - Professor of what? Why is his occupation notable?
    • University academic, PhD. Goes to the fact that the Ustase were not just uneducated peasants.
  • "the newly raised" - awkward
    • have changed to "recently formed"
  • "platoon-strength" - ???
    • added link and de-hyphenated.
  • "velike župe" - It may well be both, but is this in Bosnian or Croatian? Probably worth a mention.
    • templates added.
  • "The NDH implemented genocidal policies against the Serb, Jewish and Romani populations" - Well, that escalated quickly. Any more details? Were any actually killed under these policies? If so, how many, and in what way? How long did it go on?
    • Absolutely, have considered deleting that sentence before, as it essentially summarises the following section. Deleted now.
  • "In response, Serbs attacked not only Ustaše officials and facilities, but also conducted raids themselves, killing Muslim villagers" - placing "attacked" before "not only" implies that the next clause will simply list another group they attacked. Either switch these phrases around or reword the second clause.
    • reworded.
  • "including some Montenegrins" - link earlier
    • Done, good pickup.

Not done yet; will return with more. Tezero (talk) 17:37, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • "was beaten off" - I'm sure the rebels practiced a fair amount of metaphorical circle-jerking, but this wording is informal.
    • Fixed.
  • "the balance of the battalion" (2 locations) - ???
    • replaced balance with "rest", but not really sure what you meant.
  • "finding a very unclear and serious situation" - placement implies that this situation will be immediately expounded on, but it doesn't look to be
    • have tried to clarify this.
  • Merged a two-line paragraph into previous one; revert if noxious
    • Fine.
  • "who killed three and wounded 17 soldiers" - killed 3 civilians or 3 soldiers? If the former, specify; if the latter, change to "who killed three soldiers and wounded 17".
    • adopted suggestion.
  • "After the relief of Nevesinje" - awkward
    • reworded and linked to siege
  • "the Ustaše sustained three dead" - awkward
    • reworded.
  • "(Serbo-Croatian: Narodni pokret za oslobođenje Nevesinja)" - Same in all varieties? Linguistic distinctions are an extremely sensitive issue here.
    • the most neutral template language in this context
  • "co-operation" - why the hyphen?
    • Australian English generally hyphenates when there are two vowels.
  • "and news of Operation Barbarossa" - ???
    • added a bit.
  • "was "in the tradition" of the" - why does this need to be quoted?
    • doesn't, removed scare quotes.
  • Is this all that can be said for the attempted uprising's aftermath? No more of a historical legacy?
    • it's complicated, and not covered in sources. Essentially, because this was not a communist-led revolt and preceded the communist-led one, it was largely ignored by the communist government after the war, and works on it discouraged.
  • Consider alphabetizing categories
    • Done.

Anyway, those are all the concerns that stuck out to me. Ping when you've done or addressed them all. Tezero (talk) 20:16, 30 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Peacemaker67, are you planning to fix or otherwise address these? Tezero (talk) 21:25, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yep. Starting on it today, have been busy reviewing GAs for GA Cup. I'll ping you when I'm done. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 23:47, 6 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Tezero all done, let me know what you think? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 00:27, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, looks fine. I suppose the other instances of variety-Serbo-Croatian text make sense in context, and I don't think I have any other objections, so I'll support. Nice work on a fairly niche WWII event. Tezero (talk) 01:13, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks very much for all your comments! Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 01:24, 8 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- recusing from coord duties...

  • Lightly copyedited so no issues with prose now, but let me know if you disagree with anything.
  • Found the content detailed, but not overly so, and structure simple and logical.
  • Image review: happy to go with Nikki's.
  • Source review: made a couple of very minor formatting tweaks but everything else looked fine, and references appear perfectly reliable.
  • No dab or dup links. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:36, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Ian! c/e all good. Regards, Peacemaker67 (crack... thump) 08:19, 21 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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