Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lebanon national football team/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14 June 2020 [1].

Lebanon national football team[edit]

Nominator(s): Nehme1499 (talk) 13:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm looking to nominate this page, which is about the national association football team of the country of Lebanon. I have dedicated (most of) my Wikipedia career to this page, and I feel that it fits all the requirements. I'm open to discussion, and to improvements. Feel free to let me know if anything needs to be changed! Nehme1499 (talk) 13:42, 1 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Kosack[edit]

I'll hopefully undertake a more thorough review in due course, but a quick thing that's jumping out at me is the switching between the use of singular and plural at times when referring to the team itself. For example, a sentence such as "In 2007 Lebanon was seeded in the first round of the qualifiers for the 2010 World Cup, where they faced India" switches mid sentence. Kosack (talk) 19:59, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was afraid this would happen. I guess the copy edit (and the GAN) didn't take care of this. I'll look into this as soon as possible. Which form would be preferred? Singular or plural? Nehme1499 (talk) 20:39, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Upon further inspection, I don’t think that the sentence you highlighted is incorrect. Isn’t the singular “they” for subjects without a gender correct? Nehme1499 (talk) 01:00, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
If you wanted to keep they, then the sentence would have to use Lebanon were instead of Lebanon was. This isn't the only example of this in the text. I'm not sure which is the preferred method, I've looked to use singular myself but there are FAC candidates at the moment which use the plural. I think consistency is the issue really, stick to one style throughout. Kosack (talk) 06:42, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kosack: How would the singular work then? "In 2007 Lebanon was seeded in the first round of the qualifiers for the 2010 World Cup, where it faced India"? It seems a bit odd. Nehme1499 (talk) 13:45, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Using it can sound a little odd in places, but there are alternatives. Using the side or the team would switch the subject of the sentence to the players or restructuring the sentence with something along the lines of "the 2010 World Cup, being drawn against India". Kosack (talk) 18:30, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get it through GOCE then. I'm having a hard time trying to turn everything into singluar/plural without making certain sentences awkward. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:56, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kosack: Done. @Twofingered Typist has been kind enough to run a copy edit of the article. Nehme1499 (talk) 15:16, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
There are still one or two contradictions I can find. I would say it's more about consistency than anything, as it sounds odd when the article switches for no apparent reason. The majority of the article appears to go for the plural, so I can highlight the stray singulars when I go through this. Kosack (talk) 06:13, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Initial comments

  • World Cup > FIFA World Cup. I would use the full title on the first usage.
  • "they did participated twice in", doesn't really work. have participated would fit.
  • "finishing at the bottom of their group", perhaps simply "finishing bottom of their group"?
  • Note b is displaying a ref error message.
  • Image captions are considered separate from the main text, so add links for Majdalani and the LFA in his picture.
  • "representatives of thirteen", numbers over 10 should generally use digits.
  • What are renaissance athletes?
  • "He was one of Lebanon's most successful coaches, winning eight of 22 official matches during his 11-year tenure", source?
  • Link hat-trick and Levon Altonian.
  • "in 1966, Lebanon was drawn with Iraq", singular usage.
  • Link Joseph Abou Murad.
  • Ref 21 should be repeated after the tournament placing.
  • "In the first round they lost to host Kuwait", this is likely a singular usage as well. The plural here would be hosts.
  • There's a big jump from 1979 to 1993 with little explanation? Presumably they played matches during this period.
  • "Lebanon's first official World Cup qualification after the civil war", what does official mean in this context? Also I would change to "qualification campaign" as it sounds a little like they actually qualified at the moment.
  • Drew into a group is a phrase that's used a few times in the text. I can't say I've ever seen it used before and I'm a little unsure of it, rather than simply "were drawn in a group". Are there any examples of its use?
  • "at the 58th minute" > in the 58th minute?
  • Link North Korea to the national side.
  • "it was reported that Theo Bücker was Lebanon's new head coach", this makes it sound more like it was a rumour. I'd rewrite to something like "Theo Bucker was reappointed as Lebanon's head coach".
  • Quotes should generally be directly sourced when included.
  • "they were required to win", required might not be the right word, needed perhaps?
  • Use Maatouk's full name in his first mention.

This is what I picked up from a run through of the history section. Something to get started with. Kosack (talk) 08:46, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack: Everything should have been taken care of now. To answer your questions: "renaissance athletes" were a name the AUB gave to one of its sporting divisions. As far as I can read from the source, they had "Varsity" athletes, and "Renaissance" athletes. The source for the "winning eight of 22 official matches during his 11-year tenure" claim is the FIFA official results list. If one were to look at the results between 1958 and 1969, they would see that Lebanon had won 8 matches out of 22. The jump between 1979 and 1993 was due to the Lebanese Civil War (between 1975 and 1990). Nehme1499 (talk) 14:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think some sort of explanation or inclusion is needed for the 79–93 gap. The RSSSF shows the team did compete during this period and suffered some pretty crushing defeats as well, there maybe a story behind those. Kosack (talk) 15:14, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kosack: The 1985 matches (1986 FIFA World Cup qualification (AFC)) were subsequently not regarded official by FIFA, as Lebanon withdrew in the middle of the qualifiers (due to the war). Lebanon played 3 (official) matches in 1988, and two in 1989 (respectively 1988 Arab Nations Cup games and friendly games). I'm unsure on what we should write, thoughts? Nehme1499 (talk) 15:42, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well I'd include that. Withdrawing from a major tournament is pretty notable I would say. With a brief mention of the games the side actually did play as well. Kosack (talk) 05:49, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kosack: Done. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:57, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further points:

  • The competitive record section is a bit lacking in prose with just an endless list of tables. The only other two national team FAs for comparison are Belgium and Peru. You can see what I mean looking at these articles, the tables are supported by prose rather than just standalone items. Similar comment with the player records.
    • @Kosack: The issue with Lebanon is that, for most competitions, the prose will be an endless "Lebanon took part in the [year] qualifications, they finished Xth in their group and didn't qualify". Lebanon's only majour tournaments have been the 2000 and 2019 AFC Asian Cups (with Lebanon playing the former only on account of being hosts). Most of the info would be copy-pasted from the history section, so I really don't know how I should go about doing this part. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:56, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The notes are probably going to need references.
  • There's a bit of inconsistency with the rsssf refs, some use www.rsssf.com while others use RSSSF.com. Also, rsssf pages tend to have authors and these seem to be missing from a considerable amount of the later usages. Kosack (talk) 10:12, 8 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Kosack, how is the nom looking to you now? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:34, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Right now I would hold back on supporting, largely due to the issue with the results tables. I feel there needs to be some supporting prose for these rather than a wall of statistics. I understand finding a balance between this and the history section is difficult, but the two FA rated articles mentioned (Belgium and Peru) have managed it. Other than that, any further complaints would likely be minor. Kosack (talk) 11:06, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Ian Rose and Kosack: I should have taken care of the "Competitive record" section. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:46, 25 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
@Nikkimaria: Done. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't use fixed px size
What is preferred? Nehme1499 (talk) 18:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
|upright= Nikkimaria (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Done. Nehme1499 (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Nassif_Majdalani.jpg: when is this image believed to have been created?
It's not known. The person who uploaded the picture to Commons isn't active on Wikipedia, so it will be difficult to ask them. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Is there an approximate date? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It would have to be between the 1970s and 1988. Nehme1499 (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. This is a bit weird - the Exif data indicates a much more recent work. Wondering if the uploader truly has the right to release the image. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:12, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: I would guess that the uploader took a digital picture of a physical picture in their possession. Regardless, I have removed that picture as, due to recent changes in the History section, it is no longer needed. Nehme1499 (talk) 01:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Camille_Cordahi_v_Mandatory_Palestine,_1940.jpg: what is the status of this work in the US?
The template for PD Israel doesn't seem to indicate that a US PD tag is needed. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
In order for something to be hosted on Commons, it needs to be free in both its country of origin and the US. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Nehme1499 (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:44, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Very likely Mandatory Palestine, 1940. Nehme1499 (talk) 01:03, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Lebanon_national_football_team_1966.jpg needs a US PD tag. Same with File:Joseph_Abou_Murad_(colour).jpg
I can't seem to find any file in c:Category:PD-Lebanon that also has a US PD tag. What would a plausible tag look like?
When are these believed to have first been published? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Very likely in 1966. Nehme1499 (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Where? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:44, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I just realized that the photo was taken in Iraq, not Lebanon. The tag for PD-Iraq states that the country "is not a participant in the Berne Convention or any other treaty on copyright with the United States". Nehme1499 (talk) 01:03, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Was it also first published in Iraq? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:05, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would have to assume so. The picture is of Lebanon's line-up in the 1966 Arab Nations Cup, hosted in Iraq. I'm very confident that this picture must have been released by an Iraqi newspaper at the time. Also, the opening game of the tournament was, indeed, Iraq (the hosts) against Lebanon. So it's even more likely that the image in question is Lebanon's line-up in the opening game, and that it was first published in an Iraqi newspaper to talk about the opening game of the tournament. Nehme1499 (talk) 13:39, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why is File:Camille_Cordahi_v_Mandatory_Palestine,_1940.jpg used twice? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:23, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't, It's used once. The second image is a cropped version of the first. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the image used twice, once in full and once cropped? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:57, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Because it's the only image available of the Lebanese national team in 1940 (during their first game). The full picture is useful in the history section, while the cropped one is functional to highlight Lebanon's kit in 1940. Nehme1499 (talk) 20:20, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius[edit]

I see there haven't been a lot of comments here, so I will be posting comments soon (within the day). epicgenius (talk) 14:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lebanon's main venue is the Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium in Beirut, however they also play in other locations such as the Saida International Stadium in Sidon. - "however" should really be replaced with "but", or a semicolon should be placed before "however"
  • but it was not ratified by FIFA. Lebanon's first FIFA-recognised game, however, was played in 1940 against Mandatory Palestine. - I don't think you need "however", and the second sentence can be worded in active voice
  • by finishing bottom of their group. - "finishing at the bottom"? Though this may just be a different variety of English. However, I don't think you need "by" either.
    • I've removed "by". I've found multiple instances of "finishing bottom of their group" on Google, so it should be correct. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • reached their highest rank to date—77th—in September 2018 - this reads strangely
    • It seems fine to me, what part of the phrase sounds strange to you? Nehme1499 (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lebanon was one of the first nations in the Middle East to establish an administrative body for association football. - Why is this placed after the mention of LFA itself?
  • In 1944, Lebanon lost to an unofficial Iraqi national team representing Iraq's Ministry of Education and coached by George Raynor. - also, this does not flow smoothly compared to the preceding sentence.
    • I've added ", which was" before "coached by George Raynor". Nehme1499 (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The side played three official games, only managing one draw against Syria in 1953. - and the others were losses or wins?
    • Two losses. The "only" was to emphasize the fact that Lebanon managed to "not lose" once. Nehme1499 (talk) 18:18, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • From 19 to 27 October 1957 Lebanon hosted the second edition of the Pan Arab Games; In 1958, Joseph Nalbandian was appointed coach of the national team.; In 1963 Lebanon hosted the inaugural edition of the Arab Cup - I suggest rewording the sentences, so not all of the paragraphs start with a date.
  • I think, generally in the history sections, there is a lot of emphasis on scores. Is this normal?
    • To be fair it's a football team. The activities of a team really boil down to their matches, results in tournaments, and players. Nehme1499 (talk) 17:07, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Due to the country's civil war, Lebanon only played nine games between 1975 and 1990. - which is when the civil war occurred?
  • However, an Abbas Chahrour goal in the 28th minute, Lebanon's first in the competition, and a goal by Moussa Hojeij in the 76th minute gave Lebanon their first point of the competition.[36] [...] However, the point was not enough as they finished last in the group, with only two points.[36] - there are two "However"s in such a short span, which I would not recommend, especially as it's one of the words to watch.

More later. epicgenius (talk) 16:14, 23 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'm going to skip around a bit to "Home stadium".

  • The Lebanese national team plays their home games in various stadiums throughout the country. - This single sentence paragraph has no source. Which is technically fine because it summarizes the next two paragraphs. However, should it be combined with what is now the second paragraph?
  • Other stadiums in which the national team plays include the Tripoli Municipal Stadium and the Beirut Municipal Stadium. - this also doesn't have a source.
  • The choices originate from the national flag of Lebanon (red, white and green); green is typically reserved for the goalkeeper. At home, Lebanon usually wears a red shirt, shorts and socks (with white or gold details); the away kit is a white outfit with red (or gold) details. - neither does this
  • Previous manufacturers include Diadora and Adidas. - or the fact that Diadora was a manufacturer
  • The Lebanese national team plays - didn't you refer to the team as "they" before? "Plays" is singular, so the sentence should really be "The Lebanese national team play their home games in various stadiums throughout the country." There are other sentences where the team is referred to in the plural, but the verb is singular.

I skipped ahead because these caught my eye. More in a bit. epicgenius (talk) 15:11, 24 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lebanon hosted the 2000 AFC Asian Cup, despite FIFA's concerns about stadium conditions.[33] - Where?
    • @Epicgenius: In Beirut, Sidon, and Tripoli. But I don't really think that including the specific cities is needed. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:24, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • They then drew 2–2 to Kuwait in Beirut on 11 October 2011;[60] 32,000 spectators were at the Camille Chamoun Sports City Stadium for the first time since 2005, when the LFA barred fans from the stadiums due to behavioural issues.[61] - I would not recommend putting numbers next to years. The second part is also too close to a brand-new sentence, and it is grammatically frowned upon to put numbers at the beginning of a sentence, so it should just be spelled out as "thirty-two thousand".
  • I noticed that a few paragraphs start with "They". I would recommend clarifying these, e.g. "The team..."
  • They drew into Group A of the round, with South Korea, Uzbekistan, Iran and Qatar.[67] - When was this? It seems like quite a lot of text is dedicated to 2011.
  • before the remaining games were postponed, on 9 March 2020 - that comma isn't really necessary.
  • The heading title Other Tournaments should have lowercase "tournaments".

More later, probably tomorrow. epicgenius (talk) 23:01, 26 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. I did not find any more significant issues, and although there doesn't seem to be too much other feedback yet, I think this meets the criteria. epicgenius (talk) 23:16, 30 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

Sorry but this has been open over two months and we don't have sufficient commentary to form a consensus to promote, so I'm going to archive. I'd generally suggest a Peer Review before another FAC nom but that's a bit hit-and-miss. An alternative is to try the FAC mentoring scheme, for which you'd be eligible. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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