Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Love the Way You Lie/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Love the Way You Lie[edit]

Love the Way You Lie (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:38, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

After making my 2000th edit on this article, I feel it is time to put it to the test. I've used various articles as models and have gotten help from several users, so thank you to them. Yeah, it's another Rihanna song, but here goes. I appreciate all input! Cheers. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 23:38, 29 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from JennKR
  • Perhaps establish Rihanna as the featured artist in the first sentence? This isn't a problem at all (more my stylistic opinion - so feel free to ignore this), but the song is credited as Eminem featuring Rihanna, so perhaps it could be mentioned like: "is a song by the American rapper Eminem featuring Barbardian recording artist Rihanna". —JennKR | ☎ 01:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm trying to think of a way to put this in the first sentence, but it convolutes it in my opinion. For example, if we said "'Love the Way You Lie' is a song by the American rapper Eminem featuring Barbadian recording artist Rihanna from his seventh studio album Recovery", for all we know, "his" could be Rihanna (if someone didn't know who Rihanna was). If we moved the "featuring Rihanna" to the end of the sentence, it could be Recovery that features her, not the song in particular. And I guess it's also a matter of preference. If it's OK with you, I'll disregard this. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Magazines listed "Love the Way You Lie" among the best of 2010" > Magazines listed "Love the Way You Lie" among the best singles of 2010. —JennKR | ☎ 01:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Done! —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rihanna has said that a theme of domestic violence > change "a" to "the" —JennKR | ☎ 01:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Done! —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The producer emailed Grey his recording," > "The producer emailed Grey at his recording studio" —JennKR | ☎ 01:38, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Perhaps this was confusing. He emailed her the audio track of the song, thus the recording. I now have "The producer emailed Grey his track". How is that?
    Great! —JennKR | ☎ 23:11, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for these comments, JennKR! They will really improve this article. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:51, 30 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • New York Post > The New York Post (the ref should be changed also) —JennKR | ☎ 23:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • By the end of the year, 854,000 copies were sold in the UK > Use "United Kingdom" first, then follow with the abbreviation—JennKR | ☎ 23:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I use the full name of the state in the Release and response section ("...the song was released later by Polydor Records as a CD in the United Kingdom..."), so I use "UK" in following instances. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marjorie Gilberg (mentioned in the Themes section) is female —JennKR | ☎ 23:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Woops, fixed pronouns. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also in Themes you start a sentence with "To Doyle"; this may be confusing to readers considering there are two Doyle's used in the article: Sady Doyle (The Atlantic) and Patrick Doyle (Rolling Stone). —JennKR | ☎ 23:09, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I changed it to "Sady Doyle" since it's fine to use full names when there are 2+ people who share a surname. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:19, 2 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support—Only minor tweaks were neeeded; fully comprehensive and well-written. Nice work! —JennKR | ☎ 16:55, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Many thanks for looking at this Jenn, and for the support. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:17, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Since the time Penguin began work on this article, I knew this was meant to become a featured article. Loveable prose, updated with well formatted reliable sources is the perfect combination that makes this article worth to become featured. Well done! — Tomíca(T2ME) 18:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, Tomica! —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SnapSnap[edit]

  • [[Compact disc single|CD single]] → [[CD single]]
  • "the American rapper Eminem" → "American rapper Eminem"
    Adding the "the" seems more like proper English to me. I had the latter, but changed it because it sounded journalistic. The definite article is employed in various FAs and reviewers have raised this in previous FACs. But it may just be a matter of preference. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm pretty sure that adding "the" before a person's name in this case is gramatically incorrect. I can't seem to find a Manual of Style that addresses this particular issue, though. SnapSnap 20:41, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Odd. I see it in so many FAs and I'm not sure myself what would be incorrect about it. I'm not saying "the Eminem" after all. I remember a MOS discussion saying that this is acceptable too, but can't seem to find it. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Using the definite article before a title or description is certainly correct in British English - and we're not using it before his name here, we're using it before his nationality, which is different. The absence of the the article would suggest a loose journalistic use in the UK. I certanly feel the use anywhere in high-quality articles raises the language levels to be more encyclopaedic. Hope that helps. - SchroCat (talk) 08:42, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks SchroCat, well said. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 10:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Skylar Grey, a singer and songwriter, wrote..." → "Singer-songwriter Skylar Grey wrote..."
    Likewise as above. I have "Skylar Grey, a singer-songwriter..." now. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Barbadian singer Rihanna" → "Barbadian singer Rihanna"
  • "Eminem promoted the single with performances at [...] the MTV Video Music Awards" — In what year did he promote it at the VMAs?
  • "The song won awards" — Sounds a bit vague. Perhaps "The song won several awards"?
  • "...and was number one on 26 weekly record charts" → "...and reached number one on twenty-six record charts" (personally, I don't think the word "weekly" is necessary)
    I kept "was" because "reached" doesn't work with "...including the Billboard Hot 100 for seven weeks" since you can't reach a position for seven weeks (awkward sounding). Fixed "twenty-six". —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 10:03, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The single sold more than 5 million copies" → "The single sold more than five million copies" (WP:NUMERAL)
  • "the British hip hop producer Alex da Kid" → "British hip hop producer Alex da Kid"
  • "the American singer Holly Brook Hafermann" → "American singer Holly Brook Hafermann"
  • "She wrote the chorus to "Love the Way You Lie" in 15 minutes" → "She wrote the chorus to "Love the Way You Lie" in fifteen minutes"
  • "Rihanna's recording sessions were at Sun Studios" → "Rihanna's recording sessions took place at Sun Studios"
  • "The American songwriter Makeba Riddick" → "American songwriter Makeba Riddick"
  • Reference 37 refers to an import release.
    Not sure what to do here since I'm not familiar with this. What would be your advice? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Remove the statement (and its accompanying reference) saying that the single was released as a CD in the United States. SnapSnap 20:41, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Done! —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:05, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jocelyn Noveck of The Associated Press" → "Jocelyn Noveck of the Herald Sun" (according to the reference)
    She's writing for the agency Associated Press, which feeds various newspapers, such as the Herald Sun. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...placed it at number five on her top-10 list" → "...placed it at number five on her top-ten list"
  • The "Chart performance and sales" section should be renamed to "Commercial performance", as the word "commercial" encompasses both charts and sales.
  • "...at number two in the July 10, 2010, issue" → "...at number two on the issue dated July 10, 2010"
  • "...reached number one on singles charts worldwide" — Again, sounds vague. I'd suggest "several singles charts", an approximate number ("more than x singles charts"), or even the exact number.
  • "...fifteenth top-10 song" → "...fifteenth top-ten song"
  • "In the Digital Songs chart" → "On the Digital Songs chart"
  • "...the 109th song to reach 1 million sales" → "...the 109th song to reach one million sales"
  • "By November 2012, it sold..." → "By November 2012, it had sold..."
  • "By July 2013, it sold..." → "By July 2013, it had sold..."
  • "the American filmmaker Joseph Kahn" → "American filmmaker Joseph Kahn"
  • "the American actress Megan Fox" → "American actress Megan Fox"
  • "...finished in 45 minutes." → "...finished in forty-five minutes."
  • "Cher Lloyd, a British singer" → "British singer Cher Lloyd"
  • "Mernie Gilmore of Daily Express" → "Mernie Gilmore of the Daily Express"
  • "...a Russian guitarist, Alex Feather Akimov" → "...Russian guitarist Alex Feather Akimov"
  • "While Chicago Sun-Times..." → "While the Chicago Sun-Times..."
  • 53rd Grammy Awards → 2011 Grammy Awards

SnapSnap 19:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reviewing SnapSnap. I've fixed all issues except where noted and have explained my use of "the" when introducing people. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:57, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Despite my reservations about the whole "the" issue. SnapSnap 20:32, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Adabow[edit]

  • "the track is a midtempo hip hop ballad" appears a bit like a WP:SEAOFBLUE; not a huge issue, but see if you can come up with an alternative
  • "Magazines listed "Love the Way You Lie" among the best singles of 2010 and of Eminem's career." - not strictly true. How about changing 'magazines' to 'music critics'?
  • "It is his best-selling single" - The preceding sentence talks about "the song". It's not clear that "his" means "Eminem's" on first glance; use his name.
  • Why does 'alternative pop' link to alternative rock?
  • The article mentions that both Rihanna and Eminem have experienced domestic violence, but only describes Rihanna's experience.
  • "Detroit musician Luis Resto contributes to the arrangement on most of Eminem's songs" - not in citation given; it only discusses Recovery
    I quote this excerpt from the link, "Eminem’s core team at Effigy is completed by Mike’s brother and assistant engineer Joe Strange, studio manager John Fisher, and keyboardist/composer Luis Resto, who has also been working with Em since 2001, and who has co-produced and co-written many Eminem songs." I changed "most of" to "many of" nd "contributes" to "has contributed". —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:34, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe common time is a widely used within music circles, and comes across as less technical to the musically inept reader than "4/4 time signature". Just a suggestion
  • The last two paragraphs of 'Composition' read a bit like a quote farm. I recommend paraphrasing some of the lyrics, (especially "If she ever tries to fuckin' leave me again, I'ma tie her to the bed and set this house on fire", which can be summarised concisely and is not actually the correct lyric [me]).
    Here's where I'm a bit reluctant to do much. Since paraphrasing lyrics is discouraged (the Wikipedia editor shouldn't be interpreting the song), and the quoted lines offer a glimpse of Eminem's lyricism and the song's tone, theme, etc. But are there any lyrics that you'd think wouldn't hurt to be outright removed? TBH, the lyrics are there for a reason, because writers have commented on them. They're not there in place of original prose (unlike overquotation of critical reviews). —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, makes sense. I don't suppose there's anything to be done about the incorrect lyric unless there's another reliable source discussing it, is there?
    I cited the album liner notes for the lyric itself. See now. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:40, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Eminem revealed "Love the Way You Lie"" - what does this mean?
  • Is there information on which radio formats the song was sent to in the US, and on what dates?
    Absolutely nothing. I've searched this one thoroughly and didn't find anything. But I'm sure the song was on radio and if this is all we can say, then so be it. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm often hesitant to use "said" when referring to a critical review; "wrote" is truer.
  • The Atlantic Wire is italicised in its Wikipedia article. Is there a reason for not italicsing it here?
    It shouldn't be italicized, since The Atlantic Wire is exclusively a website. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "calling it is a love song" - extra word?
  • "In its fourth consecutive week, "Love the Way You Lie" rose from number thirteen to number eight on the Billboard Pop Songs chart, on which it was Eminem's ninth and Rihanna's fifteenth top-ten song." - what us the fourth consecutive week? Is this sentence even necessary? It seems trivial.
  • Commercial performance section is ridiculously US-centric
  • Consistency in refs: 'Archived from the original' vs 'Archived from the original'. I suggest the latter, as it is what the citation templates put out.
    It's a matter of whether the original is dead or not (deadurl=yes/no). For consistency's sake, I can remove this parameter, which should give us the latter. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, I didn't even know that parameter existed. Adabow (talk) 22:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More to come later Adabow (talk) 08:01, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Adabow. I've fixed most issues. As for the Chart performance section, I'll work on that and comment back. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 08:29, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've done a combination of cutting back on US chart info and developed on three other charts (Australia, France and Austria). I didn't want to overdo it, since going into too much detail on chart trajectories is rarely helpful and makes for repetitive prose. See what you think. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 10:06, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "she closes her hands to extinguish the fire inside." - I don't understand this.
  • "they play their roles perfectly and helped make the video powerful" - change of tense
  • I find it odd that no awards are mentioned in prose, especially Grammy nominations for Record and Song of the year - two of the most prestigious in the industry.
  • Succession boxes seem redundant given the see also section. If they are going to remain, they need referencing.

Adabow (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've re-written the first to say "The flames on her palms vanish as she clasps her hands." The second, I've made the tense fix and have discussed the Grammys and People's Choice Awards briefly in the section "Recognition". Finally, I've removed the succession boxes. Referencing those would be too tedious considering their redundancy. BTW, regarding the lyric, I've contacted a user to see if we could cite the lyric to the album liner notes. Is that OK? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 22:58, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Adabow (talk) 09:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Very tight prose and a comprehensive article on the subject. Haven't done any spotchecks or reviewed reference styling. Adabow (talk) 09:27, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Media check - all OK (fair-use, Flickr CC, own work). Sources and authors provided.

  • Fair-use - OK. Infobox, sound sample, significant video scene.
  • Flickr images - OK. Background check shows no signs of problems.
  • File:Love_the_Way_You_Lie.ogg - consider using fair-use and non-free rationale templates for summaries (optional nitpick). GermanJoe (talk) 08:37, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    That's a relief. I've added the template for the last one. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 09:01, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat[edit]

Lead

  • All OK

Writing and production

  • Any reason why the image of Rihanna is over on the left (against MOS)? It creates a monstrous amount of ugly white space on my monitor. Why not have it over on the right and let it break across the sections?
  • Any sources give an approximate date that Alex da Kid did his stuff (first para)? As it's the first main para in the article, some frame of reference for a date would be good, if there is one available.
    Did a fair bit of searching, but all that's known is that the song was written and recorded in the 2009–10 range. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In subsequent mentions, can we just refer to "da Kid", rather than the full name?
    I initially had this. I don't remember when, but at some point I undid it as per WP:LASTNAME, "People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (i.e. Sting, Snoop Dogg, The Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used." "Da Kid" does not seem like a "recognizable surname". —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in seek of help" – needs a tweak ("to seek help", perhaps?)
  • "Acknowledging Alex da Kid": I'm not sure what you're trying to say here.
    Upon hearing Alex da Kid's demo tracks, Eminem was impressed and wanted to use some of them for his songs. I re-wrote this. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recording

  • "His brother": whose? Strange's or da Kid's?

Composition

  • "Fraser McAlphine of BBC" -> "Fraser McAlphine of the BBC"
  • "pounding drums": Do we need "pounding"? Feels a little unencyclopaedic

Release and response

  • "Eminem revealed "Love the Way You Lie"..." not sure "revealed" is the right word here: "announced", perhaps?
    I have "Eminem revealed the title of "Love the Way You Lie" as part of the tracklist of Recovery. How is that? —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The New York Times writer" – Italicise "The" for consistency

Themes

  • "Winston Robbins from the music website Consequence of Sound attributed the song's poignancy to Rihanna's past abusive relationship and a theme of infidelity and abuse." Needs a comma in there, possibly two.

Production

  • "Fox, a fan" of…? Eminem, Rihanna or Kahn?

Synopsis

  • Image caption – The Daily Mail
  • "stop her abusive lover from coming": coming in, or entering, otherwise we enter the world of double entendre

Reception

  • "romanticization": Is that really a word in AmEng?
    This was unclear to me too; removed "romanticization". A Wikipedia article is titled "Romanticism", but that's not what we're looking for! —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Daily Mail": -> "The Daily Mail
  • Did Sweeney comment on the song, or was it just the show that he commented on? (The corresponding link (FN110) is also dead
    Eminem's performance. That's what I have now in place of "the show". I'm trying to get a hold of WebCite, but that seems down right now. I'll try my best to fix it, else remove this. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Live performances

  • "highlighted the evening show": -> "was the highlight of the show"?

Sequel

  • Again, do we need the white space? The image can drop down into the following section without interfering with the table below.

Other bits

  • Alt needed for Chris Brown image
  • FN14, 16 & 19: consistent date format needed
  • FN110: dead

All rather minor points in a very good piece. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 10:55, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review SchroCat. I've fixed issues and made replies where necessary. I wonder what's up with WebCite.org all of a sudden... should be back up soon. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Nice work and very happy to support this one. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:38, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers to you too! —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 19:54, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- Late to the party as always, but it seems others have beat me to it. I have read the article and I believes it meets all of the relevent criteria for it to be considered FA quality. Comprehensive, well written, well illustrated and engaging. Congratulations on a nice piece of work. -- CassiantoTalk 16:53, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Many thanks for your time Cassianto. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 18:18, 6 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support The article is very good. Great work. — HĐ (talk) 10:18, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment -- Clear consensus to promote but I have a slight concern with the lead, namely that the first paragraph employs the word "abusive" three times -- are there no variations on the term? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:22, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ian. I have made alterations based on your concern and the supporting sources. Is there anything else? Cheers, Penguin. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:55, 14 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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