Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 08:02, 6 October 2012 [1].

Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre[edit]

Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): • Astynax talk and Lecen (talk) 11:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre was one of the greatest military officers in Brazil's history. He was a key figure in the Brazilian victory in the War of the Ragamuffins, Platine War and Paraguayan War. He was also a politician, member of the Liberal Party, and fought for the abolition of slavery. Working on this article was no easy task. There are no biographies in English of the Count of Porto Alegre and few in Portuguese. His life's deeds are scattered in several different sources. As usual in mine and Astynax's articles, none of the sections are greater than fours paragraphs (we don't want to test the patience of the casual reader). The structure is very similar as in Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias, Porto Alegre's contemporary. In fact, anyone who read that article will feel at home here. Lecen (talk) 11:31, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Malleus Fatuorum

Lead

  • "He also became a sponsor of letters and sciences ...". What's a "sponsor of letters"?
  • "One of the main Brazilian commanders during the conflict, his participation was marked by both important battlefield victories, as well as constant quarrels with his Argentine and Uruguayan allies." Very awkward with that "both" stuck in there.
  • "... Porto Alegre turned his eyes to politics". Something like "turned his attention to politics" would be more idiomatic.
  • "His memory was highly esteemed until the downfall of the monarchy in 1889." Was it really his memory that was highly esteemed (as opposed to his eyesight or hearing, for instance), or he himself?
  • "... Porto Alegre's memory was cast aside." Rather too flowery. Could we not just say instead that he was forgotten, or that he slipped into obscurity?
  • "His reputation was eventually rehabilitated to some degree by historians, some of whom consider him to be among Brazil's greatest military figures." That "some ... some" is a little jarring.

More to follow when I've read the rest of the article. Malleus Fatuorum 13:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Malleus. I haven't seen this one till just now. Agreed on all points ... whatever you're willing to comment on would be appreciated. - Dank (push to talk) 13:45, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Conquest of the Eastern Bank

  • "He launched another invasion by Portuguese-Brazilian troops a few years later, in 1816, which counted among their ranks Marques de Sousa's father and paternal grandfather." That doesn't work at all: "which" doesn't match "troops" and "their" doesn't match "invasion".
  • "The elder Marques de Sousa brought him along ...". Using "brought" implies that you're writing from whatever location you're describing. Brought him along to what anyway?
  • "Months later, on 20 January 1818, Marques de Sousa was enlisted into the army as a cadet". Shouldn't that be the active "enlisted" rather than the passive "was enlisted"? Did someone enlist him, or did he enlist?
    • Since he was a minor, it was probably his grandfather or his father who enlisted him. That's not made clear in any of the sources. --Lecen (talk) 14:52, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Platine War

  • "Tragedy struck on 11 June 1851 when his wife died in childbirth ...". A tragedy for him almost certainly, but I don't think that kind of emotional language is appropriate for an encyclopedia article.

Death

  • "In one of its sessions, the count, who had already embarked on a plan of gradually freeing his own slaves ...". wasn't he a viscount by then?
    • You might have missed the last sentence of the last paragraph of "Offensive in Paraguayan territory" section: "...Porto Alegre was relieved of command on 27 January 1868. He returned to Rio Grande do Sul and was raised from viscount to count a few months later". He was raised to count on April 1868 (the exact date can be seen "Titles of nobility" section). The Literary Parthenon, where he asked for the gradual end of slavery was only created on June 1869. By then, he had been count for more than a year. --Lecen (talk) 21:25, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      Fair enough. Malleus Fatuorum 21:30, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As always when a party returned to power, new elections were held, though marked by fraud." This is a little ambiguous to me. Does the "as always" refer to the fact that elections were always held in those circumstances, that those elections were always marked by fraud, or both?
    • Both. When the Emperor named a Liberal cabinet, after the resignation or dismissal of a Conservative cabinet (and vice versa), the party now in power would ask for the dissolution of the Chamber of Deputies. New elections were carried, frauds ensued, and the party would gain a sizable majority in the Chamber. To achieve that majority, the cabinet would fire all office holders affiliated to the other political party and name people from their own party. Once in charge of those offices (for example, police chief), the officeholders would do everything within their power to influence elections. A police chief would send policemen to prevent voters from the other political party from voting, the president (governor) of the province (an appointed office, not elective), would appoint men connected to local political bosses to appease them, they would send men to vote again over and over, etc, etc... Did you see the 2002 movie Gangs of New York? Just like that. --Lecen (talk) 22:21, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      I did, and I take your point. Malleus Fatuorum 22:39, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Around the same time, the count focused on two other projects: the first grew out of his longstanding interest in cultivating letters and sciences ...". The same issue I raised about what "letters" means in this context above.
  • "... and the second, larger and more ambitious aim was to fight for the gradual abolition of slavery." How can aims be larger or smaller? Why not just say "more ambitious aim"?

Legacy

  • "Almost ten years after the count's death, a marble statue representing him was inaugurated on 2 February 1885". I'm not sure you "inaugurate" statues; "unveil", "commission", "erect"?

I've read through the whole article now and I'm very impressed at what Lecen and Astynax have managed to do despite the paucity of English sources. Obviously I can't read Portuguese, so I'm taking all the facts on trust, but in lieu of any bombshells discovered by other reviewers I'm very much leaning towards support. Malleus Fatuorum 22:48, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Although there are no biographies of Porto Alegre in English, bits of his life are also scattered among English speaking sources. A study in English of the Progressive Liberal Party, of the Liberation Society and of the Literary Parthenon can be seen here. The Paraguayan War can be seen here, here and here. The War of the Ragamuffins and Porto Alegre's role can be seen in here. Although I used mostly books in Portuguese (because they are more detailed), anyone can check the veracity of the article on those books in English. --Lecen (talk) 23:01, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm in no way doubting the veracity of the article Lecen, I'm quite convinced by it. Malleus Fatuorum 23:10, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't say that. Since you mentioned the lack of sources in English, I thought it would be useful to leave a note for everyone (since most don't speak Portuguese) that they can find most of the needed information in English. --Lecen (talk) 23:14, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:Conde_de_porto_alegre_01.jpg needs page number and US PD tag. Same with File:Signature_of_the_Count_of_Porto_Alegre.jpg, File:Paço_da_cidade_1818.jpg, File:Battle_of_Caseros_by_Boulanger.jpg, File:Baron_of_Porto_Alegre_1861.jpg, File:Count_of_Porto_Alegre_by_Fleiuss.jpg, File:Conde_de_porto_alegre_00.jpg, File:Count_of_porto_alegre_c.1875.jpg. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:31, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I added the PD-US tags. Since I was never asked before to add the actual pages from where pictures were scanned (the book details were enough) I believe that this occurs because there has been a discussion about such requirements. Could you show me? --Lecen (talk) 19:16, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk) 03:28, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. (Edits may take days to show up on that page.) - Dank (push to talk) 20:50, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • One comment, for anyone: "He fought in the village of Pando during the Battle of Pando on 30 March ...": I get that if we don't include Pando, then there's nothing to click, since the battle is currently a red-link. Still, "Pando ... Pando" is generally considered repetitive by FAC standards. Anyone have a solution? - Dank (push to talk) 18:18, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Write a stub on the Battle of Pando, even if for now it only says that it was fought in the village of Pando. Malleus Fatuorum 18:38, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Makes sense. Lecen, I edited the text on this one, can you create the stub? - Dank (push to talk) 18:54, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't want you guys to believe that I'm lazy, but I wonder with it wouldn't be better to simply remove the redlinks. I mean, what are the chances that any of these articles about these almost never heard battles (and some people too like "Sebastião Barreto Pereira Pinto") will be expanded? I've been here for some years and I still haven't see anyone else improving these Brazilian history-related articles beyond me. I think it's worthless to create articles that no one will bother to improve. But, if you believe that it´s better to create the stubs instead of removing the brackets, then I'll gladly do it. P.S.: Take for example the Second Portuguese-Brazilian invasion of the Eastern Bank. All articles about battles that occurred in this conflict were recently merged with the article about the war because they were stubs for years and there was no perspective of anyone eventually improving them. --Lecen (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    It must be very frustrating to get so little support. If it's a notable battle in either English or Portuguese sources, leave the red-link, I'll create a stub later. - Dank (push to talk) 20:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with Lecen that these minor engagements will likely get little interest, but I created the stubs in the event that someone ever decides to work on the Eastern Bank article. • Astynax talk 21:06, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the 6th company of 4th regiment of light cavalry": I don't know the name of this unit but there's a chance this isn't quite right ... possibly, "a light cavalry unit, the 6th company of 4th regiment". - Dank (push to talk) 19:01, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    The 6th company was a unit within the 4th regiment of light cavalry. --Lecen (talk) 20:02, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, then what you have is right, or close enough; I may tweak it. - Dank (push to talk) 20:57, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • The title should be Manuel Marques de Sousa. No one is calling him by the current title. Kauffner (talk) 02:46, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm unsure of your point. While he had no title in his early career, the current title is certainly used. In other instances he is sometimes simply referred to by his title alone, i.e., as the "Count of Porto Alegre"/"Conde de Porto Alegre" or simply "Porto Alegre". See Whigham's The Paraguayan War: Causes and Early Conduct page 348 or Burton's Letters from the Battlefields of Paraguay pages 203, 296 for examples in English, and there are many Portuguese equivalents (e.g., "General conde de Porto Alegre" and including place names, military units and other things dedicated in his honor that use only the title or the full name with title). • Astynax talk 05:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    I meant that there are no examples of "Manuel Marques de Sousa, Count of Porto Alegre" -llc on GBooks. There are 15 post-1970 results for Manuel Marques de Sousa" -llc., although only one of these is both relevant and in English. Kauffner (talk) 08:08, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    As there is no Luís Alves de Lima e Silva, Duke of Caxias, or José Paranhos, Viscount of Rio Branco, or Honório Hermeto Carneiro Leão, Marquis of Paraná. We are following Wikipedia's policy: the name of the person followed by the title. I warned at the very beginning that there is no biography in English of the Count of Porto Alegre. And that small pieces of information about his life appear here and there. Thus, if you're reading a book about the Ragamuffin rebellion or the Platine War, you'll probably find only "Manoel Marques de Souza" (as his name was spelled in the 19th century). If the book is about the Paraguayan War, he'll be mentioned as "Baron of Porto Alegre". Do you have any other comment about something else? --Lecen (talk) 09:28, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support

  • Shouldn't Gloved Centaur be fully capitalized as a nickname? Like Wayne Gretzky, the "Great One"? What does that mean or refer to?
  • Shouldn't the various political parties in the lede be linked to? And the position of Minister of War?
  • I don't think that I've ever seen the term Hispanic American used before; I've always seen Spanish American and would suggest that that's more familiar to readers.
  • 1st Regiment of Light Cavalry should be capitalized as a proper noun as should major general in the same paragraph (you're referring to a particular major general). Same with Brigadier Sebastiao Barreto Pereria Pinto, etc.
    • These still need to be dealt with.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Most of these still need to be capitalized. Anytime a military unit has a name or number it should be capitalized. So search for regiment, brigade and division to find those proper nouns.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:22, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The various ranks should be linked to their modern equivalent.
  • Link to Brazilian National Guard or their nearest modern equivalent.
  • Things are a little confusing in the Party Leader section about his rank. So his promotion of field marshal was only a brevet? And his promotion to lieutenant general a permanent rank?--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:57, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reply: Thanks for taking a look at the article. "Gloved Centaur" is now capitalized. The term "Hispanic American" is used to distinguish from "Luso-American" ("Spanish American" is more often used to describe U.S. citizens of Spanish or Latin American descent). I do not believe there is a modern equivalent to the Empire's National Guard (correct me if I'm wrong). Lecen is more familiar with the issues of military ranks in the Empire. • Astynax talk 21:39, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to see that the capitalization issue with Gloved Centaur has been fixed, but please add a note explaining the term to the article.
I realize that there's a dearth of editors working on Brazilian article, but I think that red links should be added for the organizations and ranks that I listed earlier to encourage other editors to create articles for them. I don't ask that anyone involved in this article do anything other than add the links.
I've read a fair amount of Latin American history, mostly dealing the early colonial period, and haven't seen Hispanic American before, but I'll accept y'all's assurance that that is a common scholarly term.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry for having misunderstood what you meant. I thought you wanted us to create that missing articles, and not merely add red links. I did that and also capitalized those names as you suggested. There is one small issue: none of the authors explain exactly why he was known as the "gloved centaur". It's implied that the reason was because he was well mannered cavalry officer. If I add that explanation wouldn't it be considered original research? --Lecen (talk) 00:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, so just add a note that none of your sources actually explain exactly what was meant by the nickname.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 00:37, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I found a good source. The note explaining the nickname has been added. --Lecen (talk) 00:51, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns have been addressed.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 01:57, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: Ok, I've made it about halfway through, only small comments thus far. Good job to all the people who have written or reviewed the article.
  • "Porto Alegre later entered the lower house of the Brazilian parliament" Is there a good link for this?
  • He also became a patron in the fields of literature and science, and an active advocate for the abolition of slavery." Is this comma unnecessary?
    • Since the two ands are so close together, it's not a big deal, but I think I prefer the comma as a clue not to read it as "X and Y and Z". - Dank (push to talk) 18:03, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I tweaked the sentence to both get rid of the comma and avoid leaving the "X+Y+Z" impression. • Astynax talk 07:58, 2 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Their private defense forces consisted primarily of laborers who were drafted as soldiers." Is it worth linking to Private defense agency here?
  • "Rio Grande do Sul was often the target of invasions from its neighboring Hispanic-American colony." What was the name of the colony?
  • "he was well connected in the imperial capital (his uncle, married to a paternal aunt, was Minister of War),[19] cultured, and well educated.[20] Marques de Sousa was a handsome man[20] of average height[21] with dark,[22] curly hair[21] and brown eyes.[21]" Minor issue, but you might think about moving some cites to the end of the sentences.
  • "Despite the nickname, the Ragamuffin rebels were landlords, like Marques de Sousa, who after losing elections tried to take power by force." Maybe some more explanation of the name, like": "The rebels, who were named after the fringed leather they wore, were landlords, like Marques de Sousa, who after losing elections tried to take power by force." Just a suggestion.
    • Were they? I thought they were named for ragamuffins. It used to be a common word, but not so much now; one option is a link to the definition. - Dank (push to talk) 18:00, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • More to follow soon. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reply: Thanks for reading through the article. I have taken advantage of a few of your suggestions. Regarding the name of the colony, it was both the Viceroyalty of Peru and the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata (in succession) during the period. As to the placement of the cites for individual statements within the sentence, it makes it more difficult to find the corresponding cite for a particular statement if they are all bunched at the end of the sentence (e.g., for any 1 reference a reader was attempting to source, they would have to go through 3 books when only 1 was necessary). I will wait for Lecen to comment on the links to whether the link would enhance the description of the private armies and on the Ragamuffin nickname (I like Dank's suggestion to link to a Wiki definition if one is available). • Astynax talk 18:13, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good to see you here, Mark.
1) I was reading the article about "Private defense agency" and it has no relation at all with what is said here, in Count of Porto Alegre's article. The life of the people of Rio Grande do Sul is far more alike the Americans in the Old West. An American farmer would often team up with other farmers to protect themselves from Indian attacks or from Mexican bandits' incursions. There was probably a wealthier and influential farmer to whom they either had a greater respect or were subordinated to by family or business connections (or other reasons) who would lead them.
2) I clarified which Hispanic-American colony the article was talking about.
3) "Ragamuffin" is the translation of "Farrapo" found in the English sources used in this article. It is not exactly known why they were called "Farrapos". The name was already used in Brazilian politics before 1835 (when the Ragamuffins rebelled) to name radicals (who were also known as "exaltados", or "firebrands"). This is the kind of thing that should be better explained in its proper article (War of the Ragamuffins), not here. Or else, I would have to explain why his party was called "Progressive-Liberal" or why the Party of Order later became the "Conservative Party". This problem about names is just one example of how many articles about Brazilian history haven't been expanded and improved so far.
4) Unfortunately I can't place the cites at the end of the sentence because they do not all say the same thing. One source mentioned his eyes and curly hair (it was a historian who met the Count when he was old and grey-haired) and the other mentioned that he was dark-haired. If I place them all at the end of the sentence someone with those books might say: "Hey, there is no such thing on book X! Original research! Blah, blah, etc..." The grammar part I'll leave to Astynax. Regards, --Lecen (talk) 19:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok, here are my last few comments, will reply to the above replies soon:
  • "The Sociedade Libertadora (Liberation Society) was founded on 29 August, with Porto Alegre as its president, with the primary purpose of purchasing freedom for enslaved children." A couple occurrences of "with" in pretty close proximity here.
  • I spotted a few refs out of numerical order, I think it's just toward the end, i.e. "Baron of Porto Alegre (Grandee) on 3 March 1852.[123][60]"
  • "and contemporaries made note of his trimmed and clean nails." Might want to link "nails" here.
  • Is "which" dangling here? "After Porto Alegre's death a marble tablet with the inscription "Here was born the worthy Count of Porto Alegre" was put at the entrance of the house where he was born, which was removed in 1893 by the owner and left to deteriorate."
  • "The work of historians has restored Porto Alegre's reputation to a certain extent." Might want to note a general time period if you can.
  • "It is worth noting that his request occurred just a few days after Caxias' arrival." I think "It is worth noting" is a phrase to avoid. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:01, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I removed "worth noting" and added a wikilink for nails. I'll leave the others to Astynax, who is far more able than I in grammar and technical stuff. I'd like to point out that I won't be able to tell exactly when the Count of Porto Alegre's reputation was rehabilitated. Certainly that it had already occurred by the 1940s, but not before the 1910s. But this would be no more than "original research" from my part. --Lecen (talk) 16:43, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • The other items on the list have been addressed. Thanks Mark. • Astynax talk 17:42, 3 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Another home run guys, good work--very readable, not a lot I could say for an article of this length. Time for the star! Mark Arsten (talk) 15:53, 4 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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