Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Maynard James Keenan

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 01:10, 15 April 2008.

Maynard James Keenan[edit]

I'm nominating this article for featured article on behalf of Wikiproject Tool. Lara❤Love 17:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw on the links tool that the first reference, Spin Magazine's "iPuscifer" article is an unaccessible article now. I've sent them a message, as I can't seem to find the page in archive. The only proof it existed that I can find is here. So just know that I'm working on it. Lara❤Love 17:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Lara❤Love 06:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please close and archive the peer review; articles can't be listed at both places simultaneously. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Lara❤Love 19:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  1. Hm.. http://toolshed.down.net/news/ is this a reliable source?
  2. Am I correct in assuming that http://www.avclub.com/content/home is connected to the Onion?
  3. What makes this http://www.seaoftranquility.org/index.php a reliable source or noteworthy for a review?
  4. http://www.metal-observer.com/home.php?lid=1 is this site an online site for a magazine?
  5. http://www.rockonthenet.com/ is being used for Grammy Awards. Why not link to the Grammy Awards site itself?
  6. Is this http://www.nyrock.com/ a reliable source?
  7. http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=89397 gives me a dreaded Microsoft OLE DB Provider error
  8. What makes this http://www.toolband.com/news/letter/2006_07.php a reliable source?
  9. What makes this http://web.archive.org/web/20061017011856/http://www.fadetoblack.com/interviews/billhicks/13.html a reliable source?
  10. http://www.dgmlive.com/diaries.htm?artist=&show=&member=3&entry=6933 what makes this a reliable source?
Tool linkie thing checks out (except for the abovementioned problem) Ealdgyth - Talk 21:07, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1. It's the official fan site, approved for use in the Featured Article Tool (band).
2. Yes, it is connected to The Onion, however:
So the stuff you write is all fake, like The Onion's "news," right?
No. Not even a little. The A.V. Club features real interviews, reviews, and other entertainment-related articles.[1]
3. I believe it is a reliable source per [2]
4. It's a webzine with a paid staff, including their reviewers.
5. Updated.
6. Yes. And it's used in a plethora of articles including Godsmack, Metallica, The Smashing Pumpkins, Audioslave, Tool (band), One Hot Minute, Niandra Lades and Usually Just a T-Shirt, and Kid A, all of which are featured articles.
7. I don't know what that means. It loads for me. This one has been removed.
8. That's the band's official website.
9. It's a webzine with a paid staff. Kevin Booth, the interviewer, recorded Bill Hick's Arizona Bay CD with the comedian.
10. It references that Maynard did vocals on a King Crimson track. Robert Fripp is the guitarist for King Crimson. That is his official website.
Hope that clears all up. :) Lara❤Love 02:49, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've left a few for other reviewers to decide on their own, in cases that I don't see as cut and dried. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:04, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough, but for number 6, considering it's used in a couple dozen articles including several FAs, I don't see what the issue could be with that one. Lara❤Love 23:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The unstruck concerns about reliable sources need specific answers per WP:V, WP:RS and WP:SELFPUB; "used in another featured article" is not a relevant argument, this article is under review, and what may have gotten by on another article isn't pertinent. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've spent a good portion of today looking over many sources sent to me by another editor (Sorry for the delay. I had the stomach flu this weekend so I wasn't up to doing it until now :X). I'll be replacing many and hopefully expanding a bit. As far as the NY Rock source, I'm confused. It didn't get by in one article, but eight. I can't see what the issue with that source is and I can't replace it as it is a source for a quote from an editorial interview. Lara❤Love 21:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I removed #3. For #5, I believe WP:SPS applies, specifically, Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. The author previously worked for a published paper magazine on music. They also host a live radio show in Austria. And, it's sourcing an opinion, not a fact. i still don't see the issue with #6, and it's sourcing an interview, which is straight from Maynard. I believe #9 falls under the same as #5, as the interviewer worked with Bill Hicks on his CD, thus he would be an expert. Lara❤Love 02:54, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't #5 resolved? That was the one for the grammy awards, which when I looked, you had replaced with a cite from the grammy awards site. So I'm lost.... Ealdgyth - Talk 02:57, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To recap, I think I'm still concerned about 4, 6, 9. I'll probably have to go through again when we're over, it's been a bit! Ealdgyth - Talk 02:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I meant 9, not 5. My bad. For 4 and 9, considering what they source, I believe they are exceptions to RS because they're no sourcing claim or fact. It's opinion and an interview quote. You can't question an opinion and I don't think you're challenging that the interview actually took place. And I have to stand by 6 for the same reason. I can't put my head around what the issue with an interview from a site that's sourced in eight Featured Articles is. Lara❤Love 19:38, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What other featured articles use isn't relevant because 1) articles change and 2) we don't know what kind of review they got. One reason an interview that is not from a reliable source can be questioned is, how do we know the interview even happened or is presented accurately, as sample questions? I can put up a website claiming I interviewed the queen of sheba. Another reason it matters is that something that 1) wasn't published by a reliable source and 2) isn't even available on the internet today (is only in the internetarchive) may not be notable or worthy of mention in an encyclopedia. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:34, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've looked at ths specific sources now; it took a while for the internet archive to load. For example: unless I'm misunderstanding ... we have statements being made in a BLP from an interview by a friend talking about another third party (Keenan, Booth and Hiatt), that is on a personal website that's no longer available, but is now accessed via the internet archive, and was hearsay even when it was available on a non-RS. Why would we include third-party information from a non-RS in a BLP? If I'm misunderstanding what I'm reading there, pls explain; I offer this as an example of why we don't usually include this sort of info in an encyclopedia, and why we should stick to reliable, notable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, to clear up another issue about WP:SELFPUB: you said, " ... as the interviewer worked with Bill Hicks on his CD, thus he would be an expert." Working with someone doesn't make the author an expert per Wikipedia's policy on self-published sources. Wiki's policy is very clear on how we define an "expert" and when we should use these sources, particularly in BLPs:

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable.

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

Self-published sources should never be used as third-party sources about living persons, even if the author is a well-known professional researcher or writer; see WP:BLP#Reliable sources.

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What it sourced was an opinion made by someone who worked closely with Bill Hicks in the comedy industry, an expert in the field, as Bill Hicks was not the extent of his career. I don't think BLP covers such an opinion of "inspiring comedy" from someone who works in that industry, regardless, I've removed it. #4 falls under the exceptions as the author previously worked as a writer for a print magazine in the music industry. It sources a review of lyrics, not Keenan, so I don't think that falls under BLP either. And #6; just so I'm clear, you're challenging that the interview took place and stating that this source needs to be removed from the current eight FAs it's used in along with another 19 non-FAs? You don't believe Keenan actually stated "Everything we release with Tool is inspired by our music. It doesn't matter if it is a video or if it's lyrics. The lyrics for "Schism" are nothing more than my interpretation of the music." in an interview with this site? Lara❤Love 05:04, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I just took a look again at the NYRock link cited in The Smashing Pumpkins since I'm the one that brought that to FA status a year ago. In both that article and this, quotes from original interviews conducted by the staff with the subjects mentioned are being cited. In those contexts, it's a reliable source for the purposes of these articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Fair use rationale for Image:Screenshot jones keenan mrshow.jpg states it is “used solely used to illustrate their participation in this particular TV program”. Why is a fair use image needed for this? It seems prose would be perfectly adequate to convey this understanding. WP:NFCC#3A requires as little fair use as possible. NFCC#8 requires that a fair use image contribute significantly to our understanding; what is the significant contribution? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Lara❤Love 02:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Comment 'ello, 'ello, 'ello...what's this undesirable doing at FAC then? (in best London Bobby voice)...better give it the once over then.... Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • ...in 1988 to work in interior design.. - was musing on this I think "to pursue a career in interior design is more accurate (?) rather than merely working.
    • Good fix. Thanks. :)
  • James Keenan was born in Ravenna, Ohio on April 17, 1964, the only child of Baptist parents. When his parents divorced in 1973, his father, Michael Loren Keenan, a high school teacher, moved to Michigan and for the next 12 years, Keenan would only see him about once per year. - the 2nd sentence has 5 commas, which is a tad excessive. Why not place both parents' names and dad's occupation in the first sentence, this way lengthening the rather abrupt first sentence and improving flow of the 2nd and 3rd sentences.
    • I did a reword. Let me know if it needs further tweaking.
  • ''His mother, Judith Marie, remarried, bringing Keenan into a step-family of intolerance and suffering. -this is a difficult one. I understand information is very limited as the subject has declined to elaborate. It occurred to me that all we have is his word, so the statement might have to be paraphrased with Keenan reported/disclosed that (new family etc.)
    • I reworded, quoting part of the source.
  • to disillusionment with his colleagues' points of view - ahaa, we've all been on WP too long. Maybe 'political beliefs/ personal beliefs/ values' or some other term is better than POV.
    • The source reads:
      He even attended West Point, before dropping out in disillusionment over his fellow students.
      "Some of those people, who would end up being world leaders, had horrible points of view," he says.
      I get it - it's tricky. I'll think about it. The more I think about it, the more I feel 'values' fits it fine. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 07:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • "undetected" - must say I find the quotes disruptive to flow. I'd just remove them. If worried that one adjective could be construed as plagiarism I am sure there are some others.
    • Removed quotes.
  • After the release of the album, Tool began a prolonged legal battle with their label Volcano Records (formerly Zoo Records). - sorta leaves me hanging. What was the legal battle over? Was Keenan the ringleader in it?
    • I expanded a bit. It's in the Tool article and seemed unnecessary to go into detail, but you're right that something needs to be eluded alluded to. I'll look at it again after some sleep and possibly add a bit more. Lara❤Love 07:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*Tool does not print lyrics for any releases as they believe most people "don't get it" and it is not a priority of the band that they do. - the last bit do 'get it' or do 'print lyrics'? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 08:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • elliptical - erm, what sense is this used?
    • Don't know, it's more or less a quote from the source. Should it be converted to reflect that? Skomorokh 10:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Interesting, I guess they mean something like "oblique/left-of-centre/contrary/weird" or all/some of the above (I think). I'd be inclined to remove it depending on how everyone feels. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 10:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • This was brought up in PR, I believe. There isn't a synonym. It's use here is to mean: Of or relating to extreme economy of oral or written expression. Marked by deliberate obscurity of style or expression. Lara❤Love 18:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC) [reply]
          • Hmmmm...I wonder if we can link to something on wiktionary maybe. A vexing adjective...Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:42, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) ok, it is here, question is, does the term as applied to people appear in a recognised dictionary? If so, I think tweaking the wiktionary entry and linking is the way to go. I'm going back to bed as its 5 am and I couldn't sleep and made the stupid mistake of turning the computer on...8P Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:45, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • [3] - "Access Denied"
  • :I've addressed this above. I've messaged Spin, I'm also looking into finding the print information to replace the web version. Alternatively, I've been sent some additional references which I haven't had time to look through, but today will be good for that.
    Found it.
  • "Although originally from Ohio, Keenan spent his high school years in Michigan and, after serving in the Army in the early 1980s, he attended Kendall College of Art and Design in Grand Rapids, Michigan." - get rid of awkward phrasing and redundancy.
    Fixed, I think.
  • "and for the next 12 years Keenan would only see him about once a year." - "and Keenan would only see him about once a year for the next 12 years."
    Done.
  • Per WP:LEAD, the lead should be three to four paragraphs.
    It's suggested. We had three paragraphs at one point, but it was condensed to two considering the amount of information being included. It was scraggly looking at 3.
  • "After moving to Los Angeles, Keenan met Adam Jones, who had heard Keenan singing on a demo in college and suggested that they form a band." - awkward phrasing; it's hard to tell who suggested it. Divide it into two sentences if need be.
    I tried two sentences, but I couldn't get a good wording from it. So I tweaked a bit. Hopefully that's better.
  • "Tool was formed. Fronted by Keenan, the eventual lineup included guitarist Jones, Keenan's neighbor Danny Carey as drummer, and bassist Paul D'Amour, who would later be replaced by Justin Chancellor." - consistency of assignments to instruments. Either do all of them as [instrument]ist X or X as [instrument]ist.
    Done.

I'm a bit tired right now; I'll check some more of the article later. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 21:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed some. I'll be back. Lara❤Love 01:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Lara❤Love 02:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - looking through the rest of the article, it seems quite well-wrriten, and my issues have been addressed. Nousernamesleftcopper, not wood 15:08, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Issues resolved. Karanacs (talk) 16:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • In the first paragraph of early life, it says Keenan only says his father once a year for the next 12 years (that would be until 1985, or he was 23). Later in that paragraph, it said that when Keenan was 13 he went to live with his father...that would be about 1977.
      • I don't know who changed that. He was 3 when his parents divorced, not 11. Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Any idea why he was fired from his pet store design job?
      • No. I searched through dozens of interviews and bios for this. I couldn't find an answer as to why, besides a copyrighted YouTube video that I can't link to that suggests he was a poor worker, but he could have been joking, so wholly unreliable. Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • If there is a link between the fake named 2001 album and their criticism of file-sharing networks, it needs to be made more clear in the article.
      • No apparent link, although I am not sure of the author's intentions. I have moved the filesharing info to the preceding paragraph according to chronology. Skomorokh
    • Per wP:MOSQUOTE, quotations of fewer than 4 lines should not be offset.
      • The only thing MOSQUOTE says about four lines is "A long quote (more than four lines, or consisting of more than one paragraph, regardless of number of lines) is formatted as a block quotation..." There is no use of {{bquote}} in this article, and only one use of {{quote}}, which is for a five sentence quote in the A Perfect Circle sentence. Could you please clarify? Skomorokh
        • Probably referring to the epigraph in the Puscifer section. I've worked it into the prose. Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • ""Puscifer" (pictured to the right)." -> no picture
    • Per WP:ELLIPSES, there should be a space, then ..., then another space
  • Comments
    • very clunky sentence " realization that he would not go through West Point undetected for his dissidence"
      • I believe this was the suggested reword in the PR. Do you have a suggestion on what may be better wording? Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • I don't know that this really belongs in the article "This was not the first time Keenan and Love were in a media story together; Love once referred to Keenan as a "media whore" to which he responded, "Isn't that great? I have the distinction of being called a media whore by Courtney Love." -> it is very trivia
        • It gives important context to the "Free Frances Bean" incident. Without that line, the reader would not properly understand why Keenan undertook the campaign. Skomorokh
      • The April Fool's Day prank seems more trivia-y than encyclopedic.
        • It is a prime example of Keenan's sense and use of humour, to which an entire section, Comedy, is devoted. Skomorokh 21:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • " to obscure his identity " How has he obscured his identity? Yes, he wears costumes on stage, but people know his name and apparently lots of information about him. Maybe this needs a less strong word?
        • This is from the sources, his own explanation. It was to prevent people from recognizing him in public. I believe the exact example was that he wanted to be able to walk into a 7-11 with his son and not be hassled by fans. He didn't want his fame to affect his son. Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Without more context, this doesn't really belong "Amos had often referred to Keenan as an unofficial brother"
        • This establishes the friendship they share. Lara❤Love 04:36, 9 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    Karanacs (talk) 21:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Comments There are some unclear sentences and phrases.
      • This one: A primary purpose of Keenan's lyrics for Tool involves a personal connection with the listener on a level in which people are striving for self-identity, understanding and reflection. I have read five times but I still don't understand it.
        • I piped some links. Hopefully that helps. It basically means that he writes lyrics that encourage the listener to search within themselves. They are "thinking-man's lyrics".
          • It isn't the words that I do not understand, is is the sentence. The one you have written here, (above), is much better. GrahamColmTalk 07:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • I tweaked it to sort of include my explanation while holding a more encyclopedic tone.
      • And this .....and the realization that he would not go through West Point undetected for his dissidence.
        • Piped link.
        • Same comment. GrahamColmTalk 07:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'm sorry. I don't understand what the confusion is with this one. He realized that he could not go through West Point and have his dissidence go unnoticed. It's just written in a more encyclopedic tone.
      • He dropped out of West Point because he realized that his dissidence would be noticeable.
        • Moniker - doesn't sound very encyclopedic.
        • I changed it to name.
      • Is this US English ....he ran on the cross country running team? Ran with or ran for?
        • In US English, it's ran on.
      • Pulled by - again not an encyclopedic word, how about withdrawn.
        • Done.
      • Lastly , I think you will find that the Lead does not need the also.
        • Removed.
    • GrahamColmTalk 17:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support Thanks for an engaging article and putting-up with a pedant. GrahamColmTalk 20:48, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support I read the article and saw nothing that would hold it back from promotion. My review was pretty short, then I realised everything on my review was adressed here. Great article. Burningclean [speak] 19:46, 13 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Note: Part of non-reliable source removed, but part left, resulting in a dead link: [4] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:10, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • Skomorokh fixed it. Lara❤Love 06:13, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • Are you comfortable leaving this uncited? Even if the story is common knowledge, and not likely to be challenged, the hard data could be tricky ("thousands ... complied"), the sort of data that should be verified by a published reliable third-party source:
          • The two became acquainted and Hicks later opened some Tool concerts. Best known is a routine Hicks did on Tool's Lollapalooza tour in 1993, when he asked the audience to look for a contact lens he had lost. Thousands of people complied. Keenan enjoyed this joke so much that he repeated it on a number of occasions.
        • Perhaps you can rewrite it avoid the need for citing hard data. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:19, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • The claim that "thousands complied" has been replaced by a verifiable reference to the number of concert attendees. Skomorokh 17:39, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
            • The new wording will work, except it still appears to have uncited hard data (maybe I'm not seeing something?). [5] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:14, 14 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
              • I've promoted the article because I'm not going to hold up promotion over one uncited number, but the hard data should be cited or removed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:20, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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