Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/P. K. van der Byl 1

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P. K. van der Byl[edit]

This article is modest in size and scope. But it offers a subtle insight into a significant issue in history - namely the decolonisation process in Africa. Bob BScar23625 14:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support Not a work of academic distinction. But it is simple, readable, and makes a historical point. Bob BScar23625 14:46, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refer to WP:PR - this is fine, as far as it goes, but I doubt it is comprehensive, and there are no references. See the criteria for featured articles. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:47, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    "comprehensive" means that an article covers the topic in its entirety, and does not neglect any major facts or details; note that "comprehensive" does not imply a minimum word count. I think the article is comprehensive, although concise. Bob BScar23625 16:00, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Thank you, but I do know what "comprehensive" means (as defined in WIAFA). For example, who were his parents; where did he go to school; where did he serve in WWII; what did he do from 1945 to 1950 and from 1950 to 1962; what were his terms of office in the various ministries and what policy initiatives did he pursue; what did he do between 1982 and his death. Finally, you must add some references. If I was being picky, I would add that there are no inline citations, as far as I can see, even for the direct quotations. -- ALoan (Talk) 16:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for your comments. As I am sure you are aware, his school, parents and war service details are given in the links in the article. But are you sure those are "major facts or details"?. Is the name of the school he went to fundamental to an understanding of the man and his career?. Bob BScar23625 16:58, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't know the man from Adam before having read the article, but it seems to me that his school could be important. He seems to been well known for having given the impression of being an upper-class Englishman, so it would be interesting to know whether he went to, say, Eton; equally, it would be interesting if he was educated somewhere less prestigious. I was not aware that details of his school, parents and war service details are given as links in the article - I have only read the article, not the links. If the details are so easily available, perhaps you would like to add them with a reference. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:54, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    The rewrite seems to have addressed my objection; however, as most of the text is so new, I still think it could do with a period of maturation on WP:PR. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:03, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object. Generally only one external link and pic and no references. Brandmeister 17:44, 17 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object. Criterion 2a. BScar, I don't know what you mean by 'academic'; what we want here is good writing. I can see at least eight changes that need to be made in the first few sentences. Let me know if you want examples. Tony 01:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • In fairness to everyone I should say that last night I rewrote the article almost from scratch and it is now much longer than it was. I have not finished and will go back to add direct references. I would refer this article to peer review once this process is completed. To Tony, I would say that criterion 2a (beautiful prose) is a very difficult one to judge. One man's beautiful prose is another's nest of clichés. David | Talk 13:39, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's not 'beautiful' prose that is required, but 'compelling, even brilliant' prose. This matter is not nearly as subjective as you're making out. The article should be 'stable' (Criterion 2e), and is clearly not. And it should go to PR before this room, not after. Tony 14:02, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - even more so Sorry chaps - I am the guilty party on submitting the article prematurely. David has done an excellent job on rewriting this since yesterday and I have added a point or two. PK is a key character in the history of the twentieth century, although few people have heard of him. Perhaps you would all be kind enough to take another look at it?. Bob BScar23625 14:55, 18 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I love this guy. Nice work Bob! michael talk 02:41, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Michael. Yes, I don't think even Wilbur Smith could make up a guy like PK. Bob BScar23625 08:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comments just in case this academic vs. good writing thing has made Criterion 2a fuzzy. The writing is OK for a high-school essay, but not as a FA on WP. It's generally understandable, but more is required: plain, clear, correct English without redundancy. I've taken one whole section as an example, displayed below sentence by sentence. (BTW, the structure is a little choppy—too many stubby paragraphs and sections.)
"Van der Byl came to Rhodesia in 1950 in order to manage some of his family's tobacco farming interests, and to make his fortune." And remove the comma.
"He welcomed the move as it allowed him to indulge his hobby of big game hunting: in that year in Angola he set a world record for the biggest elephant shot; the, a record thatstood for many years." If you know that it was many years, why not tell us exactly how many?
The source did not specify. David | Talk 10:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"He entered politics via the Rhodesian Tobacco Association (of which he became a leading spokesman) and the Rhodesian Front." "Via" might be OK as a technical word in chemistry or engineering, but here, "through" or "through his association with" is required. Replace parentheses with commas, or better still: ""He entered politics by being a leading spokesman of the Rhodesian Tobacco Association and through his membership of the Rhodesian Front."
"PK was always elegantly dressed and coiffured. He spoke in with an upper-class English accent that was not his native way of speaking." The last eight words raise thorny issues; you could remove this and write simply: "... coiffured, and adopted an upper-class English accent." If "PK" was his nickname, quotes are required on its first appearance here.
"At the 1962 general election, van der Byl was elected comfortably to the Rhodesia House of Assembly for the Hartley constituency, a rural area to the south-west of Salisbury." Perfect.

The whole text needs surgery like this to satisfy 2a, I'm afraid. Tony 07:31, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid you're talking rubbish here. Your quibbles are just your personal prejudices for the type of English you prefer, not some objective assessment. David | Talk 10:28, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm afraid that rudeness to reveiwers is not what gets a FAC through. I won't say any more at this point. Tony 11:39, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I speak as I find, and this FAC is going to go to Peer Review anyway. I might object to lots of FAC nominations because they mis-spell words like "colour" and refer to people walking on something called the "sidewalk". David | Talk 11:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The objections seem somewhat petty and an insult to those who put effort into this article. michael talk 13:18, 21 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Let me be 'petty' a little more, and 'insult' the contributors with objections to writing that is frankly far from 'compelling, even brilliant' (Criterion 2a). Far from indulging in 'personal prejudices', I'm concerned about precision, consistency, and standard practice, which all add up to ease of reading.
"PK" or 'PK'—consistency required.
"who strongly believed in an international communist conspiracy which was plotting to overthrow white rule"—fuzzy; try "... believed that an international communist conspiracy was ...". Can a conspiracy plot to do something?
"He inherited from his mother in 1983 a property described as 'the magnificent estate he had inherited"—clumsy repetition.
"The two were both members of White's Club"—hello?
The reference to his attractive young wife might make some readers (like ... 50% of them) gag with the typecasting of women. It's not encyclopedic language. (See Criterion 2d.)

I won't go on; the article has some good points, but it definitely does not "exemplify WP's very best work". I note that little attempt has been made to improve the prose since my first objection and that, instead, the contributors' response to my suggestions was belligerent. Tony 09:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

    • We have guidelines about civility but not belligerence, so it's not a case of breaking any rules. You've still to substantiate your objection to the writing, which is just your personal prejudice about the style of English and really isn't something that can be taken into account. Yes, a conspiracy can plot to do something - that's the whole point of a conspiracy. What on earth do you mean by "—hello?" Is this supposed to be some form of objection? The point about van der Byl's wife is significant: after a lifetime of womanising he eventually marries a European Royal 30 years younger than him, which is highly relevant to his position. I don't know what your real objection is here because you bring up these nonsense points again. David | Talk 20:55, 6 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You still have to substantiate your contention that my objections are 'personal prejudice about the style of English'. No, a conspiracy doesn't plot, people plot. "Hello" means that you shouldn't have to be told that 'The two were both' is tautological. Attractiveness is subjective, and in this context is inappropriate POV. My examples, here and above, amply exemplify poor writing, specifically, redundancy, repetition, and jumbled logic. It is significantly below FA standards. Tony 01:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. I like the article, and it's been substantially improved since its nomination. But I agree with Tony; it wastes words throughout. Try following the six rules in Orwell's Politics and the English Language. Also, the preamble seems to stop partway; it doesn't cover Van der Byl's reaction to internal settlement or the aftermath. -- Avenue 09:54, 7 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Very good article! 217.209.93.205 23:35 August 8, 2006 (UTC)

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