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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 08:02, 7 October 2018 [1].

Parliament of 1327[edit]

Nominator(s): —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:06, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is the Parliament of 1327—almost a revolutionary body, for the first time in English history, a reigning monarch was juridically removed and replaced. King Edward II—did he resign, or was he deposed?! Find out here today. Actually, of course, you won't because—naturally—historians do not agree, as usual, so for me to draw any conclusions would be an indulgence in bubblegum. The article's in (possibly) fine shape; it's been through an almost adequate GA review and a better peer review (now archived, many thanks to all who helped). Looking forward here, as usual, to all meticulous commentary and metaphorical canings. Thanks in advance all, —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:06, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1[edit]

There are good things about the writing, but here are a few queries about the prose in the opening para:

  • "Edward II had become increasingly unpopular with the English nobility through the course of his reign, ..." – Unless I've got it wrong, he was only Edward II during his reign. So why are the last six words necessary?
  • "By 1325, even his wife, Isabella, despised him." – A bit clunky with such densely sprinked commas. Could the two either side of "Isabella" be removed?
  • "probably entering into a relationship with him, and ultimately, the following year, invading England with him to depose her husband." – Does the "probably" also apply to the invading? Do we need "ultimately" when there's already a time phrase? Do we need to know that Mortimer wasn't just a good-looking servant? I'm unsure, but think about this: "Toward the end of that year she took their son the Earl of Chester to France, and joined and probably entered into a relationship with the powerful and wealthy nobleman Roger Mortimer, whom her husband had exiled. The following year, they invaded England to depose Edward II."

Tony (talk) 03:21, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Tony1: Thank you very much, Tony, this is an unexpected pleasure. To summarise, I've taken on board your remarks, up to and including lifting your suggested sentence—cheers! If you notice anything else you think I ought to know about, feel free to make any suggestions you want. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 18:07, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

First three paras of "Background":

  • "Edward was unpopular with the people due to his repeated demands for unpaid military service in Scotland"—sounds like he was demanding he be allowed to do unpaid in Scotland. I'm unsure who the "recipients" were.
    • "Edward was also unpopular with the common people due to his repeated demands from them for unpaid military service in Scotland"? And then split into a second sentence.
  • I suppose there's no avoiding that × 2 here: "Historian Chris Given-Wilson wrote that by 1325 the nobility believed that "no landholder could feel safe" under the regime." I often face this problem in my own writing.
    • "has written how", perhaps, instead?
  • Very bumpy with six commas:

    "France had recently invaded the Duchy of Aquitaine,[12] then an English royal possession,[10] and, supposedly to prevent the Queen's estates getting into French hands, King Edward repossessed them,[11] probably at the urging of Despenser,[12] and forcibly disbanded her retinue.[13]"

    "France had recently invaded the Duchy of Aquitaine,[12] then an English royal possession.[10] Supposedly to prevent the Queen's estates falling into French hands, King Edward repossessed them,[11] probably at the urging of Despenser,[12] and forcibly disbanded her retinue.[13]" Maybe?

    But there are more issues: supposedly and probably? Not fond of "supposedly", which could be ambiguous. You could get away with one uncertainty tag, maybe at the start (even though there are several sources ... doesn't seem to matter if you show it's all hypothetical).

    • Thanks Tony1, there's a couple of things here. i) I've removed the ambiguators, as the sources are firm on the humiliation etc., and ii) I realised it read as if the invasion and confiscation were related; they were not, so I've separated them, with the invasion opening the next para (which discusses it) and kept Isabella vs Despenser in the preceding para. Thoughts?
  • Modern historians ... so you've been citing historians from long ago? "while suggesting"—can the first word be dropped?
    • Done, and agree.
  • Too many thats: "Contemporaries believed that she had sworn" ... Perhaps audit for those that aren't necessary?
    • Interesting; OK, I have brought occurrences of that down from 96 to 47?
  • "Soon after her arrival, correspondence between her and her husband, as well as with the French King, Charles IV, and the Pope, effectively disclosed the royal couple's increasing estrangement to the world.[10] They were both increasingly scathing of each other,[16] worsening relations.[10]" Ambiguous. Was it the fact or the contents of the correspondence that disclosed this? More ambiguity: is the disclosure through modern scholastic analysis, or was it obvious at the time?
    • Yeees; this is a tricky one. How about "A contemporary chronicler reports how Isabella and Edward became increasingly scathing of each other"—does that clarify that it was contemporarily knowledge?
  • "she had entered into a—possibly sexual—relationship in Paris with"—perhaps remove the dashes?
    • Done.
  • "This was known of in England by March 1326"—remove "of".
    • Done; further, how about "This was public knowledge in England by March 1326"?
  • "ordered that both the Prince and his mother were to be arrested on landing in England"—remove "were to".
    • Done.
  • "her and her"—I've read that twice in the Background. Can't immediately see how to fix either.
    • Mmmm: ctrl+F said I used it three times throughout, so I've adjusted them all to variations of "Isabella and Edward", "her and the Prince", etc. Better?

Tony (talk) 06:59, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers, Tony, appreciate these points. There's a couple of things you may wish to confirm though? —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 13:47, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
All well, Tony1? —54129 05:48, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Suggest adding a legend to the map caption explaining the different colours
  • File:Edward_II_of_England.jpg: source link is dead. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • And thank you, Nikkimaria, for that. It's a good idea about the legend, and I would really like to use green/pink arrow symbols rather than text—but I think that kind of visual is a bit beyond me, so I had to go with text...also I replaced the link with a university website rather than the news one; any better? Thanks again! —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 18:07, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are the red dots meant simply to represent the locations associated with the text? It seems there are more dots than the text would suggest... Nikkimaria (talk) 18:29, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
True, a careful count shows (I think) an extra one on the "Welsh leg" of Edward's final tour; I wonder, would Hchc2009 be able to clarify, or even adjust their map, I wonder? —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
'Fraid I've retired from the Wiki, SerialNumber. Hchc2009 (talk) 10:58, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cas Liber[edit]

Taking a look now...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:37, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • If "deposition" has a specific meaning, I'd link it.
  • and Despenser, a contemporary chronicler said, was "deeply hated by the nobles of the kingdom".[ - the active tense makes it scan oddly, why not "and Despenser was reported/said to be "deeply hated by the nobles of the kingdom".
  • Edward too was disliked by his nobility, not only because of his favouritism but because they felt abused by him. For example, the King had made repeated demands for unpaid military service from them - strikes me as unnecessarily wordy, why not just, "Edward was also unpopular for making repeated demands for unpaid military service from them"
  • In September 1324 she "had been subjected to the extreme humiliation of being declared an enemy alien", - this can be rewritten without directly quoting.
  • Modern historians agree that hostility towards Edward was general - I'd not use "general" in this way here - you mean "universal"?
  • They were both increasingly scathing in their remarks and eager to score political points off each other, - what do you mean "political points"? I'd be tempted to remove...
  • King Edward certainly alienated his son by putting the prince's estates under royal administration in January 1326. "certainly" redundant here
  • The following month, in a "startling" act of brinkmanship, the King ordered that not only the Queen but the Prince too were to be arrested the moment they landed in England - can we think of another word for "startling" that doesn't need quote marks?

Actually, looking over the Background section, I think it could be trimmed slightly with some of the speculation removed. Context is good but I think it might be a tad on the inclusive side. I can find examples later.

  • They failed in this mission: Edward did not just refuse to come but refused robustly - why can't we just say "he flatly refused"?

OK, I find that it is quite an engaging and entertaining article, so I think with a bit of prose-tweaking we'll get there. More later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 06:29, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for looking in, Casliber—I appreciate (and have utilised) all your suggestions. Just to clarify that "startling" was a quote (although should have been directly cited of course), as I wouldn't consider it encyclopaedic otherwise. In any case, I've replaced it with "unexpected"—although, on re-reading, I'm not sure it needs an adjective at all... —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:46, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Right then...

  • They were uncertain, even, as to whether Edward II had abdicated or was being deposed. - isn't clear who "They" are here....
  • If Edward did denounce parliament in such terms, then he had severely underestimated his wife and Mortimer. - I don't get the point of this sentence really...
  • It may have actually enabled them to do so: - I'd argue this is redundant as it is repeated (in the opposite way) in the next sentence
  • Seymour Phillips suggests that if Edward had attended he may have found enough support to seriously disrupt their plans - "seriously" redundant here. If you want a stronger word than "disrupt", how about "stymie"
  • Following its recall, parliament returned to the more usual business of medieval parliaments - why not just, "Following its recall, parliament returned to usual business"
  • had led to widespread disturbances and illegality - err, this could be rephrased I think..
  • When parliament finally dissolved on 9 March 1327, it had been the second longest, at seventy-one days, of the period - what period?
    • Many thanks again Casliber, I agree with all your suggestions, although I reckon I can tighten the prose a little more,* so some of them may end up being moot? Remembering to strike this time...Incidentally, about the last point, Maddivott doesn't actually specify: so I changed it to "of the reign", which although not as extreme, is at least accurate (since it was). Personally, I think he probably means since c.1277 when parliaments started taking place on a semi-regular basis. But that's just my opinion and also, I think, OR  :) —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 11:07, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
*Now tightened. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 15:47, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ok then, support on comprehensiveness and prose. Seems pretty complete to me and is an engaging read. I do think some other folks might find some more to tighten as I tend to tune out stuff on repeated reads. Nice work. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:26, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • PS: You were right the first time, it is the reviewer that strikes out their points if/when they feel they've been addressed...but no biggie. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:27, 1 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ceoil[edit]

I intend to support this article, but working through. As a general observation, I find 54129's subject matter very interesting, and his/her writing style highly engaging, they have a real feel for the political undertones and the impact of conflicting personalities on historical events. In part this is because of a highly attuned antenna, in part its because 54129 writing style is very down to earth, conversational almost, at times. While this exactly the kind of prose I most appreciate, in these articles it does lead to some redundancy, which my recents edits are attempting to weed out. I echo Tony's observation above that "There are good things about the writing", and am trying to put my finger on were there could be improvement, as I see this editor as one of our best. All in all, another fine piece of work, will post here again shortly, when done. Ceoil (talk) 17:09, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Happy now to Support. Note the nominator pinged me since about watching and learning re Tony suggesting etc; can see evidence of this in this very well written page. Ceoil (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • "was instrumental in the transfer of power from King Edward II to his son, Edward III". Neither then had power. I would say transfer of the crown.
    • Absolutely right.
  • "predominantly because of his promotion of court favourites". All kings have favourites. Maybe "excessive influence of unpopular court favourites".
    • I agree; I wonder if that results in a slightly overlong sentence—thoughts?
  • "Despenser was said to be hated by English nobility" Why the "said to be"? He was.
    • I think I meant, by contemporaries. But that's tighter.
  • "Edward was unpopular for his repeated demands for unpaid military service". DNB and the FA article on him do not say this. He would not have been expected to pay the nobility for military service. It was rather his repeated defeats in Scottish wars, which are not mentioned.
    • I'll add & source them, and "paid" is probably anachronistic, so also removed.
  • I should have made clear that I was querying the "repeated demands". This is cited to a 1956 article by Powicke. I do not have access to Phillips's biography, but DNB and the FA Edward II article do not say that this was an issue and do not cite Powicke. Such demands were normal in the period, and although Edward's opponents sometimes supplied only the minimum number they they were required to send for political reasons, the demands themselves do not seem to have been a major issue. I also think that the Scottish failures should be specifically mentioned. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:16, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Clarified. Are you using the DNB or the ODNB? —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 12:34, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
ODNB. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:17, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, just curious. Cheers! —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 13:27, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in September 1324 Isabella had been publicly humiliated when the government declared her an enemy alien." According to DNB in Sep 1324 she was deprived of her lands, which you have in 1325.
    • Well spotted, thanks, I've corrected the chronology with a couple of (extra, hopefully not too many) details.
  • "The King was incarcerated by the Earl of Lancaster". He only became Earl of Lancaster later. It would be better to use his correct title of Earl of Leicester, especially as it avoids confusion with his uncle who had been executed.
    • Point; so I've linked him as Leicester and pointed out his relationship with Dead Thomas, so when he becomes Lancaster later it won't be a surprise.
  • More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:45, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comments
  • "The main priority for the new regime was what to do with Edward II." This is not grammatical. I would say deciding what to do.
    • Done, thanks.
  • "Roger Mortimer considered holding a state trial" Why the first name when you have referred to him just as Mortimer above?
    • I think just trying to prevent monotony...changed though.
  • "anointed his position by God." This sounds odd. Maybe anointed king by God.
    • Of course.
  • "Only 26 of the 46 barons who had been summoned to the October 1326 parliament also received summons to that of January 1327, and six of those had never received summonses under Edward II at all" I do not understand this. You refer to the Oct 1326 parliament, but above you say that this was the date of the summons for the Dec parliament which was postponed. Maddicott says it was the first parliament for 13 months, a point worth making. Also I assume you mean that 6 received summonses in Oct and Jan who had never had them before, but it is unclear.
    • Of course, they were summoned in Oct 1326, not to, many thanks. I clarified the sentence: "Only 26 of the 46 barons who had been summoned in October 1326 for the December parliament were then also summoned to that of January 1327". I've added the point about 13 months; it's not that I don't agree with it, just that it doesn't really fit.
  • " It differed, in that the concerted influence of outsiders and commoners such as the City of London's Common Council and ordinary Londoners." This is ungrammatical.
    • "Where it differed was in the greater-than-usual influence that outsiders and commoners had, such as those from the London" perhaps?
  • I assume that Lords and Commons met together, not separately as today, but this should be clarified.
    • The precise divisions are unknown. They were certainly together at some points (the opening and conclusion of the parlt, for example, and may have reconvened at various points. Little is known about this for the period; at this stage, the commons did not necessarily even debate as a unit: the burgesses often deliberated separately from the knights for example. It's not until the 1341 parlt that we see two distinctly cohesive houses with separate meeting places. No parliamentary roll for 1327, of course.
  • "reflected an underlying constitutional crisis, of which contemporaries understood." This is ungrammatical.
    • Corrected.
  • " how power was transferred" As above, the crown, not power.
    • "How could a transfer of power between living kings be accomplished in medieval England without violating the underlying assumptions about kingship and government, the elusive 'constitution'?"
  • "The fundamental question was how power was transferred between two living Kings" I am not clear what your point is here. My point, which you agreed with in the lead, is that neither Edward had power at that stage. The question was how to transfer the crown. Dudley Miles (talk) 17:31, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A historian has described how" You should name him or her.
    • Done.
  • "having provided no stable rule in his absence (as would be usual)" What does this mean? I assume that it was usual for a king to appoint a regent when he was absent, but it is not clear.
    • Yes, he could leave the realm, but he would be expected to make provision for its rule in his absence. Added "regent".
  • "Mortimer, making clear that he speaking on behalf of the lords". This is ungrammatical.
    • Well: a word was omitted; bt have simplified to "...speaking on behalf of the lords", which is much easier.
  • There are a lot of grammatical errors. I have picked up some but no doubt I have missed others. The article needs a thorough copy edit.
    • There are very few. But thanks very much indeed for your edits!
  • More to follow. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:40, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further comments
  • "The bishops gave sermons—Hereford" I think it is better to stick to calling him Orleton as some readers (including me) will not remember his diocese.
    • Done
  • "All of which was claimed to be so well known to the common people that it was undeniable." This is ungrammatical.
    • Tweaked
  • "They accused Edward's favourites of tyranny" "They" presumably refers to the articles but it should be spelled out.
    • Yes...I think at first it referred to the rebels, but the articles, of course, did the same
  • "Edward's father had, says Mark Ormrod left him "an impossible task", having started the war without making sufficient success with which to finish it." "making sufficient success" sounds odd to me. Also it is cited to Phillips, not Ormrod.
    • Tweaked
  • "by evil counsel and evil ward" What does evil ward mean?
    • I think counsel is self-explanatory (the ame word is used in the same context today), but I've added a footnote explaining "ward"
  • "A delegation consisting of the Bishops of Ely, Hereford and London, and around 30 laymen[10][73] (including the Earl of Surrey to represent the lords and Trussell representing the knights)." This is ungrammatical.
    • Split and reworked the sentence
  • "acknowledgement of memoranda" What does this mean? memorandum of acknowledgement?
    • Quite
  • "The delegation set back for London on 22 January" set back sounds odd to me.
    • Meh. I think it's OK, but having said that, reworded slightly
  • "Isabella, on the other hand, granted herself an annual income of 20,000 marks" How did she have the power to do this?
    • Because she was the mother and husband of Kings and lover of the de facto ruler of the kingdom? However, tweaked slightly to show that strictly it was a grant, even if at her request.
  • " (those who evaluated them." Missing bracket.
    • Bracketed
  • "This not only included the political—and often lengthy—petitions" These not only?
    • Yeees...again, I think the singular referred to the "business", but tying it to the petitions makes sense
  • "Their problem they faced" "The problem they faced"?
    • Yes
  • "this effectively involved having to rewrite a piece of history in which many people were actively involved and had taken place only two weeks earlier." What history? He had agreed to resign.
    • Only after a convoluted process which was effectively being made up as it went along: [QUOTE]"Edward II's deposers set themselves a much harder task, one that involved recreating an event involving over a dozen people and backdating it by two weeks, while erasing, or at least devaluing, the importance of a memorable ceremony in which over a hundred had participated, including representatives of the community of the realm who were supposed to report these actions back to their communities"[/QUOTE] If you can think of an improved summary of that, please be my guest!
  • "Michael Prestwich as described the latter" has described?
    • Well spotted
  • "the significance of 1327 for the development of separate chambers, in how it "saw the presentation of the first full set of commons' petitions [and] the first comprehensive statute to derive from such petitions"." I am not clear how this is supposed to have contributed to the development of separate chambers. Also, what is meant by "commons' petitions"? Does commons mean commoners? Presumably it does not mean house of commons since this did not yet exist. The petitions described above are by persons and bodies outside parliament, not just individual commoners.
    • There in
  • "No advance of democracy—nor was it intended to be—its purpose was to "unite all classes of the realm against the monarch" of the time" This is ungrammatical.
    • UNgrammatical! Ungrammatical! Tweaked.
  • "Professor Gwyn A. Williams" Why distinguish him as Professor? Other historians you cite are also professors.
    • Just for variety I suppose, but removed now for consistency
  • "Adam uses words that strongly suggest that had this precedent in mind" I think a word is missing.
    • Yes, "he"—inserted
  • "Says Curtis Perry, "contemporaries applied the story [of Edward's deposition] to the political turmoil of the 1620s in conflicting ways:" This is ungrammatical.
    • Well; the wording is fine, but I don't mind tweaking it. Check it.
  • "the impression that Isabella's relationship with Edward was dysfunctional from the start" This quote should be attributed inline. The same applies to other quotes in the notes, which should be attributed in the text, not just the refs.
    • I do not know what this means. If a quote is in the text, it gets attributed. If it is in a footnote it gets attributed. What mean ye?
  • An example: "This is at variance with the impression received from chroniclers writing under Isabella and Mortimer between 1327 and 1330, who tend to give "the impression that Isabella's relationship with Edward was dysfunctional from the start"." This is cited to L. B. St John, but not attributed to him inline as e.g. "This is at variance with the impression received from chroniclers writing under Isabella and Mortimer between 1327 and 1330, who, according to L. B. St John, tend to give "the impression that Isabella's relationship with Edward was dysfunctional from the start". Dudley Miles (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article seems OK in content so far as I can judge with a limited knowledge of the period, but I am concerned at the high number of typos and ungrammatical statements (or in some cases excessively colloquial ones). Dudley Miles (talk) 15:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many thanks again for your review Dudley Miles, we agree on much and disagree on less, although where we do, it is no doubt robustly...incidentally, feel free to be WP:BOLD if you find a great number of errors (I notice you found three earlier). Or just "Oppose" on principle, it's all good. Either way—thanks very much for for your edits as well as this review. Cheers! —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 20:18, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reply above. See also my reply above on the crown being transferred not power - in the main text as well as the lead. I am going on holiday so it may be a week before I comment further. Dudley Miles (talk) 21:19, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Serial Number 54129 I do not wish to oppose as I think the article is close to FA, but there are still a few issues. As I mention above you frequently quote in the notes without attribution to a named historian in the text (see example above). I think it is best to attribute inline in every case but it is not a deal breaker. An additional point which I have just noticed is that I do not think it is correct that he was deposed and his son proclaimed king on 13 January. Both ODNB and Prestwich in Plantagenet Engand pp 216-7 say that on 13 January it was agreed that Edward should be replaced by his son. He was then forced to abdicate on 20 January and the new king officially acceded on 25 January. Dudley Miles (talk) 10:55, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dudley Miles: Thanks! I hope you had a good holiday. Just FYI, I certainly wasn't insisting you oppose ;) just letting you know that it wouldn't ever be taken personally. So, if I can sum up, your sticking points are inline attribution (I'll certainly do that, as I'm fully persuaded as to the benefit) and the transfer of the crown/power (which is certainly a discussion worth having). As to your latter query regarding Prestwich etc: I can probably tweak that, I just haven't got the sources before me atm (I'm now, ironically, also, on holiday for the week). Is that a good summary of your position? —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 11:24, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • On transfer of power or crown, you accepted this in the lead and I was just suggesting that the main text be brought in line with the lead. I have made the change myself in the main text, but you can of course reopen the question. Dudley Miles (talk) 13:11, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes I noticed that. I'm not particularly wedded for or against. My thoughts are basically that a) it's not just the physical crown itself that gets transferred, but the moral and political authority it symbolises, and I think we should be careful not to suggest to the reader that it was as simple a "just" handing over headwear, as it were; and b) that the source refers explicitly to the transfer of power rather than the crown. However: your change is acceptable, as it's still a viable interpretation, if I might think a slightly narrow one. Cheers! Incidentally, I've also provided inline attribution to contemporary scholars' quotes where necessary, as you suggested. Although not to contemporaneous commentary, except where specifically identifiable (e.g., a chronicle). —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 13:49, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I understood that you were going to deal with the succession query when you return from holiday and I was waiting for that. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:32, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Dudley Miles: Well, not necessarily; it's mostly peeing down, yet there is BT extra-fast broadband. Although I note that it's only "extra fast" until c. 17:00. Do you know what I mean?
    Anyway, enough perambulating; wot mean ye, the succession query, specifically? —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 15:25, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You said "As to your latter query regarding Prestwich etc: I can probably tweak that, I just haven't got the sources before me atm (I'm now, ironically, also, on holiday for the week)." Dudley Miles (talk) 19:58, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seen, Dudley Miles; well, obviously I can't say that for a ~week there was no King at all (!!!) but how about a line (or footnote perhaps) noting that "Prestwich has identified gaps in the chronology that point to the uncertainty of the times...[his dates]", or something? Emphasising how the political movers and shakers were effectively forced to make up procedure as they go along. Whilst avoiding WP:OR. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:03, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not clear why you think there cannot be a period with no king, but looking at Prestwich again he says that the new reign formally started on 25 January, as you also say, so your statement that Edward III was proclaimed king on 13 January seems doubtful. Of course, this is subject to the wider range of sources which you have. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:58, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks again, Dudley Miles. But, what is this? My "claims" are "doubtful"? Are you suggesting that I have misused a source either deliberately or through incompetence? In any case, we have an entire section pinpointing the moment the crown changed hands as being 13 January, and all fully sourced. And Prestwich does not, for instance, say that "Edward III became King on the 25th"—that would be far too unambiguous for a medievalist. No: he says, "the new king's reign began formally" on the 25th. In other words he was already considered King, but his reign had not "formally" started. In other words, Edward II was de jure King until the 13th, but not de facto' (clearly, as he was eating venison in Wallingford), whereas Edward III was de facto King from the 13th, and de jure' from the 25th. But I really don't think it needs any more words expended on the thing.
    As for gaps in reigns...I think interregna were alien to the medieval English political culture and the concept of kingship, but that is, certainly, an argument for another day. Probably the day I bring this to FAC. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 13:27, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK you obviously have access to a wider range of sources than I do. I am happy to support now. Dudley Miles (talk) 19:04, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source Review[edit]

Just flagging up that this candidate has received a comprehensive source review at the FQSR workshop which, I believe, fulfils this candidate's FAC requirement for source reviewing. Factotem (talk) 17:20, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support on sourcing. Detailed review at the link above. Factotem (talk) 12:27, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@FAC coordinators: Not sure what's going on with the FQSR workshop these days, but it occurs to me that this FAC page will be an incomplete record unless the source review linked to above is replicated here in full. Is there any way it can be transcluded, or do we just copy and paste? Factotem (talk) 10:28, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Factotem: Fair question of process. Can we maybe just post a diff like: "Source review has passed"? --Laser brain (talk) 20:30, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That link is in userspace. Can we guarantee it will never be deleted? Factotem (talk) 20:50, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi guys, I had a post here yesterday but I realise now I never saved it. Yes, like Andy, I think a link should suffice but I understand the concern about it being in userspace -- Mike, as a thought, would you want us to transfer completed reviews from the workshop to the FACs in question and then blow them away from your userspace, or would you want to preserve the workshop in full? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:39, 28 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That would work -- I was not thinking that the workshop subpage would ever get moved, so it can just stay there, but I see it's a good idea to have a copy of the actual source review here. So perhaps a cut and paste would be the best thing to do? I wouldn't want a FAC to refer to something in user space, even if there's currently no intention of moving it. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:14, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay Mike, I'll copy/paste the SR here (collapsed though, I think, to save space) and perhaps when the workshop is finished you just put some kind of archival banner over the whole thing to preserve (noting the individual reviews get that anyway). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:14, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SR by Factotem
  • Refs list is properly formatted. There are a few without page numbers, but these are web pages which are not numbered, so all good.
Just noticed ref #48 cites Ormrod 2011 with no page number. A search for the quote in Gbooks preview reveals this to be p. 48. Factotem (talk) 10:10, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Now ref #50. Still missing page number. Factotem (talk) 15:42, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done.
  • The location info for Goodman's 1971 edition of The Loyal Conspiracy: The Lords Appellant under Richard II looks wrong. Following the OCLC link to Worldcat indicates that it was published by "Routledge and K. Paul" of London.
Adjusted, many thanks.
Not sure I understand. Why do you need to take/upload a photo to address this? Factotem (talk) 17:25, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
??? Factotem (talk) 15:43, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • I misunderstood your point, apologies.
  • St John's In the Bset Interest of the Queen: Isabella of France, Edward II and the Image of a Functional Assembly Typo.
    • Done.
  • Waugh's Edmund [Edmund of Woodstock], first earl of Kent Has no OCLC or ISBN, but the link shows that there is a doi reference that can be used.
    • As a webpage, I've never before used one.
The {{cite web}} template can take a doi= parameter. Factotem (talk) 18:26, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that; but have no idea what you are talking about.
@Factotem: Many thanks indeed for this; how do you do that then. I know dois are prominent in article refs (even the v old ones?) but no idea how you create one for webpages. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 11:16, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean, but I didn't create the doi ref. It's displayed on the web page that you linked to in the title of the work. It turns out that your title link and the doi ref lead to the same page anyway, so not sure this was such an issue after all. I guess if the ODNB ever change their website, though, and give the page a different URL, the doi should still remain valid. Factotem (talk) 11:21, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Factotem: I filled in the other odnb doi, but impossible to find for the PROME page. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 11:41, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Did you use the Barnes and Noble published edition of Chrimes & Brown's Select Documents of English Constitutional History, 1307-1485 as listed in the bibliography? I ask because there's another edition published in 1961 in London by A & C Black Publishers with different pagination (422, instead of B&N's 398) which could affect ref page numbering.
    • Not sure now; but in any case, Dunham / Wood source this whole sentence.
  • The Worldcat listing for the H.M.S.O. publication Calendar of the close rolls preserved in the Public Record Office indicates that this was originally published in 1898, not 1892 as shown in the article's bibliography.
    • Done
  • Where you list Woodbridge as the publisher location, I think adding Suffolk would be appropriate.
    • Well, I can't find anything on this (again) at Template:Cite book or WP:REF; although I thought it was only usual for US states.
Someone made a similar suggestion at one of my FACs, so I'm just repeating it here. Not sure if it's a major issue. Factotem (talk) 18:28, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • External link checker does not report any problems.
    • Glad I've done something right anyway!  ;)
Actually, I've just discovered that the ext. link checker checked only the archive. The website www-british-history.ac.uk, linked to in the bibliography for Given-Wilson et. al. (2005), is down, and the archive link requires a login. There are 33 refs to this work, so it maybe needs looking into. Unfortunately the Wayback Machine doesn't appear to have archived that page. Factotem (talk) 09:45, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Extremely odd! —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:20, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • You provided one Gbook preview link, for Hartrich's Urban Identity and Political Rebellion: Henry of Lancaster's Revolt, 1328–29 in Ormrod's Fourteenth Century England. I check these because the Gbook previews often link to different editions of the publication to that listed in the article bibliography. This might introduce problems with page numbering in the article's refs if the pagination is different between those editions. This one, however, checks out fine. On a personal note, we're not required to provide Gbook preview links in the bibliography, and I don't, for this reason and the fact that availability varies according to your location.
    • That's very well spotted, cheers, it must have slipped through the net. I'll remove it: you might have noticed that I don't (intentionally) use Gbook links either (as you say, for the very good reasons you gave).
  • Powell & Wallis. Typo in publisher name Factotem (talk) 08:12, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done.
  • Just noticed that there are some cases of date ranges in book titles that are separated by a hyphen. Fryde's The Tyranny and Fall of Edward II 1321-1326 is just one example. I believe these should be unspaced endashes. Factotem (talk) 10:51, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Checking OCLC and ISBN links - I usually click through all OCLC/ISBN/etc. links and verify that Worldcat/Gbooks details these links lead to correspond with the details given in the article bibliography.

  • The OCLC link for Adams & Stephens's Select Documents of English Constitutional History leads directly to the Worldcat listing, but there is no publisher information in that listing. I have found this publication online, and the publisher information is listed there on the title page. Might be worth linking the title in the article's bibliography.
    • Moot now, since I've removed the work, but a good idea.
You've removed it from the bibliography, but there's still a ref (#91) to the work. Factotem (talk) 18:30, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Of course; I confused this with the similarly-titled one by Chrimes and Brown (which is removed). I've added a url link.
  • In the listing for Bradford's A Silent Presence: The English King in Parliament in the Fourteenth Century, you've provided an OCLC ref for the journal Historical Research, but this appears to be a generic reference for the journal as a whole. A search for that specific article gives us a doi reference and an issue number that are missing from the article's bibliography.
    • Yes, I only ever link to the volume rather than the article (and, indeed, assumed it to be accepted practice). This answer applies to a couple more comments, below, of a similar vintage.
Don't see how this is acceptable. Without a specific document reference, you're forcing readers who want to verify the source to search on the title. We are required to provide ISBN references for books so that readers can identify the specific book. Why aren't we required to do the same for journal articles? Factotem (talk) 15:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Factotem: well, either way, I've added dois to the article where possible: This seems the go-to place for that kind of thing. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 11:40, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There appears to be two volumes of Bryant's Parliament: The Biography. You don't specify which. Following the ISBN link provided to Worldcat reveals that that reference relates to Volume 1. None of the five editions listed for that volume are published by Transworld, as indicated in the article's bibliography.
    • Ironically, this is the only source remaining in the article from its original incarnation, so strictly I can't say. But I've added the details regarding the volume number. Worldcat registers Transworld (an imprint of Penguin) here.
      • @Serial Number 54129 and Factotem: Hi there, just to let you know, this was definitely the first volume, and it was the 2015 Black Swan edition. My mistake was because the first edition's publisher is listed as Doubleday, an imprint of Transworld. Thanks, GreyGreenWhy (talk) 21:24, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Many thanks GreyGreenWhy! You can see what a ball-ache content creation can be now, eh  ;) —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 14:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the listing for Dunham & Wood's The Right to Rule in England: Depositions and the Kingdom's Authority, 1327-1485, you've provided an OCLC ref for the journal The American Historical Review, but this appears to be a generic reference for the journal as a whole. A search for that specific article gives us a jstor reference and the issue number 4 that are missing from the article's bibliography.
    • As above.
  • The ISBN reference provided for Forhan & Nederman's Medieval Political Theory: A Reader: The Quest for the Body Politic 1100–1400 appears to relate to the 273-page e-book edition published in 2013. The 1993 edition has a different ISBN number and is only 257 pages. That difference in pagination might impact the page numbering in your refs.
    • It was this one, so the pagination is OK, but I think the refbook generator ascribed a dodgy ISBN to it.
Then bibliography should be amended to show the correct ISBN as given by that Gbooks link. Factotem (talk) 18:34, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done. (Update: see [2].)
  • Similarly, the ISBN number for Fryde's Handbook of British Chronology appears to relate, according to Worldcat, to the 2003 edition, not the 1996 edition you've specified in the bibliography. This is, however, a purely cosmetic issue. I don't consider it to be a problem because at 605 pages, the pagination in both editions is the same.
    • Right!
  • The bibliography entry for National Archives gives an NA reference of SC8, which is a collection. The link you provide appears to be to a specific document with NA ref SC 8/56/2773. I think this should be included in the bibliography. You appear to have used the {{cite web}} template to format this; I wonder if the {{cite archive}} template is more appropriate?
    • That's fantastic, many thanks—I didn't even know it existed! If you could have a look again, considering it's first time usage. And you'll see a slight anomaly with the date; the archives themselves only (cautiously) date it within a ~20 year period, but harv referencing didn't like a date range, so the sfn is forced to just have one year (all things being equal, I chose 1326).
Looks good to me. I didn't have any problem entering a date range and previewing it. Presumably it throws an error when you try and save it. Don't personally have a problem with your solution, and given that there is no need to disambiguate National Archives sources (you only use one), I wouldn't have considered it a problem if the ref was undated. Factotem (talk) 18:42, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A few questions to more experienced reviewers:

That's not relevant to this question, which relates to, for example, Prestwich's book Plantagenet England: 1225–1360, published by Oxford University Press. Given the name of the publisher, I wasn't sure it was necessary to state the location as well, but the template only says it's not necessary when the title shows the location, not the publisher, so it looks like it is expected. Factotem (talk) 17:44, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are 14 entries in the bibliography that do not give publisher information. It looks to me like these are journals. I don't know if it is required to provide publisher info for these, but some info is, at least in the case of Historical Research (publisher of Bradford's A Silent Presence: The English King in Parliament in the Fourteenth Century) available (although which of "Institute of Historical Research", "University of London" and "Wiley-Blackwell" is the correct publisher to credit, I do not know).
    • Again, I don't think I've ever seen a journal referenced with a location. In the case you cite, it's an article within a journal. And, as you point out, a journal can indeed go through many publishers whilst remaining under the ownership of the same body. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 17:17, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a preference for ISBN numbers wherever possible, or is a mix of OCLC and ISBN acceptable? Obviously, there is no option where only an OCLC reference is available, but following the OCLC link for the H.M.S.O. publication Calendar of the close rolls preserved in the Public Record Office to Worldcat reveals that this publication has also been assigned an ISBN number.

I've only reviewed OCLC/ISBN/etc. links down to Fryde, about a quarter way down the bibliography. Don't really intend to do the rest (the above represents about two hours work). Taking a break now, but will come back later with a review of authors and publishers and any observations I may have on their reliability, which is, I think, the last element of the source review yet to be covered.

You're probably right, and a spot check is pretty much what I've done by halting. I try to do a full check because mismatched ISBNs/editions is a common error, and when the pagination is different, that has implications for WP:VERIFY, which is at the core of what we do here. Given that I've found a mismatch in the first quarter, I believe the correct thing for me to do now is suggest that you check the rest to confirm that there are no other errors. Factotem (talk) 17:31, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

When I do source reviews, I generally also do spot checks where I can find sources online, usually via Gbooks previews. I note that this is not really being asked for here, based on the fact that it is considered necessary only for first-time nominators (though I can find nothing in any of FAC documentation that formally states that). I'm tempted to do one here, more out of curiosity than anything else, though having skimmed through the nom's user page, it appears they have worked on only one FA, and the SR for that did not include spot checks. Factotem (talk) 12:10, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot one thing. The very first ref is "Doherty 2013, p. ch. IV.". Firstly, that's mis-formatted; it's either p. or ch., not both. Secondly, it appears that a whole chapter is being referenced. Any reason why this is not narrowed down to a specific page or page range? Finally, a bit of cross-over to image review, but it's still a sourcing issue. What's the source for the data contained in the image showing Mortimer and Isabella's invasion route in 1326? The source should be added to the image's description page over at commons. Factotem (talk) 12:18, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I re-jigged Doherty; it's a whole chapter is because it takes that long to describe the King's and the rebels' progresses across the country. As to Commons: what does one do if one prefers not editing Commons...? —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 17:17, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ask someone else to do it. As I understand it, that information really needs to be sourced in the image description, not the caption. Factotem (talk) 17:26, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Done that for you. Non need for the ref in the image caption now. Factotem (talk) 17:38, 2 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Second tranche[edit]

Checking sources for reliability.

  • My assumption is that university presses are reliable, so I conducted no research of these.
  • I checked all non-university publishers. For names I recognise, such as MacMillan and Routledge, this was very cursory. I spent a little longer on names I did not recognise. These checks were still somewhat brief, but generally did not reveal anything that raised any concerns.
  • Where I could not find anything to satisfy myself that the publisher was reliable, I researched either the author or the work. I found nothing of concern, but it might be useful to list those for which I found such more in-depth research to be necesary:
  • I've not come across Russell & Russell, publishers of Clarke's Medieval Representation and Consent: A Study of Early Parliaments in England and Ireland before, but a review of the work indicates that it is reliable. Incidentally, it would appear that it was originally published in 1936, which can be added to the bibliography listing with the parameter |orig-year=First published 1936.
    • Added, cheers.
  • Similar story with Psychology Press, publishers of Gransden's work, but later editions are published by Routledge, and the author's credentials seem acceptable. BTW, this is the second volume of two, and the book's full title appears to be Historical writing in England / 2. C.1307 to the early sixteenth century.
    • Added volume.
  • Again with Birlinn, publishers of McNamee's The Wars of the Bruces: Scotland, England and Ireland 1306 - 1328, but the work was well received in a review by Ormrod
  • I checked all journals, and found that all but one are published by university presses. Referring to my question above, it would have made the review easier if this information had been included in the bibliography details.
    • Ah!
  • The one non-university published journal, Studies : an Irish quarterly review, is published by The Educational Company of Ireland. I was a bit concerned that this publisher of school textbooks lacked the necessary scholarship, but the source is used only once, to support a non-contentious quote, so see no reason to consider it a problem.
    • Excellent, will bear it in mind for the future though.
  • Of the two websites used as sources:
  • British History Online's about page gave me no cause for concern.
  • I don't normally consider news publishers to be reliable sources for anything other than news, but the BBC's history pages actually seem quite solid to me. You've used this as a source only once but, straying into spot checks here, ref #154 cites the BBC in support of the statement "although [Bryant] suggests Isabella and Roger Mortimer thought it necessary to have parliamentary support". The BBC page supports the assertion that Isabella & Mortimer sought Parliament's support, but makes no mention of Bryant. The statements are also sourced to Bryant, who supports the assertions being made in the article on his own (though I think you need to source it to pp. 66–67, not just 67), so I question the need for that BBC ref. BTW, checking Bryant confirms that you've specified the correct volume of Parliament: The Biography. Your response above to my question about which volume was used concerned me somewhat – it looked a little like a guess. Incidentally, "although" starts the sentence, and needs to be capitalised, or the preceding full stop needs to be a comma.
  • That source can probably be removed, it is not actually supporting anything, just a mistake I made when drafting the original stub. GreyGreenWhy (talk) 21:24, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks both—I've removed the BBC source.

In summary, I didn't find anything to suggest that the sources used are not reliable.

Notwithstanding the single spot check immediately above, I'm still not sure that I will be doing any more. The above represents another two hours of work. Factotem (talk) 10:48, 3 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Third tranche[edit]

To verify comprehensiveness, I usually do a Gbooks search on the relevant topic. I did two searches for this article and checked the first three pages of results for each. The first was for "edward ii", which reveals one potentially authoritative source which does not appear to have been consulted for this article:

  • The Reign of Edward II: New Perspectives by Dodd and Musson. You use Dodd's BBC History article once (unnecessarily, as identified above), and a different chapter in the book, but you don't use the 25-page chapter titled "Parliament and Political Legitimacy" which seems very relevant. Is there a reason why it's not used as a source? I note that in the first two pages Dodds discusses the historiography of the subject, and identifies a number of works that don't appear to have been used in the article, by H. G. Richardson and G. O. Sayles, who appear not to have been consulted at all; three works by G. L. Harris (this author does appear to have been used, but not the three works Dodd mentions); a work by J. G. Edwards (editor of a different work which has been used in the article); what I assume to be a 1981 journal article (Historical Studies 14) by M. Prestwich, though a more recent work by this author has been used; and a biography(?) of Thomas of Lancaster by Maddicott (who does appear in the bibliography with a different and, going by the title, more relevant work).

The rest of the first three pages of results reveal works by Roy Martin Haines, who appears to have solid academic credentials; Susan Higginbotham, who appears to be more of a popular historian; and Stephen Spinks, whose Edward II the Man: A Doomed Inheritance was published 2017, but whose biography also indicates that he is more a popular rather than academic historian. The Gbooks previews for all three don't suggest that they have devoted a great deal of attention to this article's topic.

I've added some material from the Dodd/Musson; but using "Edward II" as a search parameter is a trifle broad, and, in general, such as it provides on this particular niche of his reign, is covered in much more detail by the search you performed subsequently. Stand by though.
I still think you need to respond with something about the other authors I mention above. They were not identified by the Google search, they are identified by Dodds as relevant in a chapter that specifically discusses the subject of this article. It may well be, for example, that the work by G. L. Harris that you have used is all that is necessary, and the other three works by him add nothing new, but I think I need some re-assurance of that, and about the other authors mentioned above, before I could be happy to support the article on sourcing criteria. Factotem (talk) 17:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
{reply|Factotem}} I made a couple tweaks to enable me to incorporate relevant material, my general concern previously was to avoid the impression of giving all available sources equal weight when they may not deserve it (often a concern for older sources), and to avoid unnecessary detail (re: summary style). Having said that, context is always important, so there you have it. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 11:49, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Factotem: previous ping failed. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 11:50, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine. We're required to incorporate all significant aspects of a subject according to their weight in the sources. That does not require us to incorporate every single source. Not knowing the subject myself, all I can do to assure myself that the article is a comprehensive survey of all sources is search for sources and identify those that aren't used. It's perfectly valid to come back and say source X doesn't add anything new, source Y has been discredited, source Z is no longer relevant because of more recent research, etc. etc. Factotem (talk) 12:11, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The second search was for "parliament 1327" which revealed the aforementioned The English Parliament in the Middle Ages by H. G. Richardson and G. O. Sayles and little else.

    • Which is odd, as a similar search of my own using the same string brings up reams of relevant material—much of which I've used.
My bad. I wasn't clear. The search brings up lots of relevant hits, which as you say you have used. When I wrote "and little else", I meant little else to make me concerned that the article was not comprehensive survey of relevant literature. You still need to address why Richardson and Sayles are not used as a source, though. Factotem (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
(see above re. R'son)

Spotchecks (a little more cursory than the 10% I normally aim for, but I can't devote any more time to this).

  • #22 (Ormrod 2011 p. 35), #56 (Ormrod 2011 p. 47), #72 (Phillips 2006 p. 232), #152 (Harriss 1994 p. 14), # 55b (Mortimer 2010 p. 165) OK
  • #27 (Ormrod 2011 p. 41). I don't see any support in the source for the assertion that the commander of royal fleet joined the rebels, only that he permitted safe passage to Isabella.
    • Rephrased it to the more neutral "assisted the rebels".
  • # 46 (Ormrod 2011 p. 524) doesn't support the statement that "Isabella, Mortimer and the lords left Bristol on 31 December..." at all. This is the first page of the chapter "A Fragile Tenure, 1369–1376", so looks to be a complete error in citing.
    • Absolutely, and absolutely bizarre: that's been there since March. In any case, a search of other works doesn't reveal another source, so just merged it into "Isabella, Mortimer and the lords arrived in London on 4 January", which s reliably sourced.
  • # 55a (Mortimer 2010 p. 165). There's a few minor infidelities here. The source states that the question of what to do with Edward II was the last but not least in a list of several key issues discussed, not the main priority. Picky, but the source says only that Roger spent Christmas at Wallingford, not that the issues were discussed "just after Christmas". Finally, I'm not sure the source supports the statement "public trials always bring the danger of a wrong verdict"; it states only that "...if Edward was not found guilty of treason..." before going on to explain the doubt about whether a king could be charged with treason.
    • Three things there. I agree re. it being a priority but not being the main one. As to Christmas: I think my interpretation is acceptable: I drew it from the fact that Mortier was obviously discussing it (with someone) at Christmas (because Mortimer says "his stay was not all seasonal frivolity") and then that "by the end of December...", which suggests it had gone on over (after) Christmas itself. Which, of course, isn't a day—it's a season.

Overall

  • There are still a few issues in the first tranche of comments to be addressed, but there's nothing there to suggest to me any major problems.
  • I don't see any obvious problems with the reliability of sourcing.
  • The most serious issue, which might result in an oppose, is about the comprehensiveness of the sourcing. The lack of use of Dodd's chapter and the works he identifies needs to be addressed, either with a good explanation of why they are not necessary, or by incorporating them into the article.
  • With the exception of ref #46 (Ormrod 2011 p. 524), which looks to be a mistake in citing, I see no significant problems or misrepresentations. There are a few questionable statements, but these are not fundamental to the subject.

That's about as comprehensive a source review as I can manage. Other than responding to responses, I don't intend to devote any more time to this. Factotem (talk) 11:13, 4 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    • @Factotem: Many thanks for this again, that's a lot of man hours put in and I hope not wasted. I've addressed all (or at least most—let me know if I've missed anything fundamental) your points, generally positively. In any case, it's all useful to the article and it's possible progression. Cheers! Take care, —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 14:40, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, you haven't. There are still points I've raised that remain unaddressed, including the very first. Factotem (talk) 15:57, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've bolded issues above that still need to be addressed. Feel free to unbold them yourself when you've done so. I also think the issue of added doi/jstor refs for specific journal articles, rather than relying on OCLC refs for the journal, is a significant issue, but maybe that's something for wider discussion. Factotem (talk) 17:00, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah

All issues resolved. Support on sourcing. Factotem (talk) 12:19, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SC[edit]

Nice article (from a quick skim), and I can only find minor points to pick at so far.

Lead
  • "to France, and joined and probably entered" the double "and" is rather jarring. Perhaps "to France, where she joined and probably entered..."
    • Stolen.
Background
  • Gaveston? I bet he was sick to his stomach...
  • "they led to a further decline in his popularity. This declined..." perhaps a different word for the second "decline"?
    • "Diminished"?
  • "with the exiled Roger Mortimer". As this is the first mention outside the lead, perhaps "with the wealthy exiled nobleman Roger Mortimer"?
    • Stole, again.
  • "Along with Roger Mortimer": drop the "Roger"
    • Have done so; but I call him Roger M. a few more times throughout the course of the thing; do you suggest removing Roger completely except the first usage? The thing is, just to confuse things, there's an Ian Mortimer mentioned later too :) —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 09:50, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Uhhhh... I didn't see the Ian... Best left with both names then - SchroCat (talk) 20:08, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting stuff. Done to the end of Background, more to follow. Cheers. - SchroCat (talk) 22:32, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers SchroCat! —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 12:21, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done to the end of "Proceedings of Monday, 12 January" - one minor tweak made in the preceding text. - SchroCat (talk) 20:26, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Proceedings of Tuesday
  • ”The bishops, too, gave sermons”. I’m not a fan of the “too” - it looks like others also gave sermons
  • ”the power of the word of god”: lower case G in the original?
Articles
  • ”seen the death of his brother)”: I cant see an opening bracket —

More to come soonest – SchroCat (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SchroCat: Ta! FYI, "god" was clearly subliminal atheist propaganda  ;) and the "brother" sentence would work equally well either in or without brackets; I went with the latter—and put an extra bracket in—on the principal, really, that I never actually use them... —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 12:01, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final Batch!
Scholarship
  • You have Claire Valente linked, even though this is the third time you have mentioned her without a link! You've also full named her on the previous two occasions – I think we can do the first time only and surname the last two.
  • The boxed Prestwich quote ("To try to determine precisely") needs a source
  • "its purpose was merely": "merely" should be dropped – it looks like editorialising

I've made a couple of minor tweaks while going through it too.

@SchroCat: You're very kiind, I appreciate your edits too. Cheers! —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 14:55, 12 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Coord notes[edit]

I just tweaked the lead and searched the main body to tweak/trim some words and phrases, as I do when an article looks about ready for promotion. Outstanding points:

  • There are several quotes in the article that I think require inline attribution. One example: Edward II was officially still King, although with his "most beloved consort Isabella queen of England" and his "firstborn son keeper of the kingdom"—in what has been described as a "nominal presidency" -- here I can't tell whether the first two quotes are by Edward himself, or a contemporary, or the author of the source, and I'd rather not have to guess who used the term "nominal presidency". Pls review throughout.
  • There are several duplinks in the article; some might be justified and I wouldn't be holding up promotion over them, but pls review also.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:09, 29 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ian Rose; I think I caught all the quotes needing attribution (they were mostly to contemporaries in one form or another). Also addressed the duplinks, although, considering the length of the article, I've followed the tactic of a link in the lead and then on the first subsequent mention. And many thanks fo your earlier tweaks. Cheers, —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 15:29, 30 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sup, Ian Rose?  :) —54129 05:49, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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