Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sonic the Hedgehog 2/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 12 May 2023 [1].

Sonic the Hedgehog 2[edit]

Nominator(s): JOEBRO64 17:34, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This 1992 Sega Genesis game needs no introduction, but I'll do my best to try: while Sonic the Hedgehog's success proved that Sega could compete with the behemoth that was Nintendo, Sonic the Hedgehog 2 proved that success wasn't a fluke. It established Sonic as a major franchise and made the Blue Blur an industry icon. It wasn't all fun and games behind the scenes, though—development was rife with cultural clashes between the Japanese Sonic Team alumni led by Yuji Naka and Mark Cerny's American Sega Technical Institute staff. Despite considerable reductions in scope, Sonic 2 shipped on time and is still widely considered one of Sonic's best outings.

I began rewriting this article all the way back in 2020 but finally got around to finishing it recently. I believe it's the most comprehensive resource for the game on the internet and it's been a while since Sonic's paid FAC a visit—I hope you enjoy the article! JOEBRO64 17:34, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Given the number of non-free screenshots, each will need a stronger justification. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:47, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: added alt text and strengthened the FURs—if it needs more work just let me know. JOEBRO64 16:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator note[edit]

This has been open for three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it will have to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4[edit]

This is my first time participating in a featured article review, so please tell me if I seem to have missed anything or if anyone would like clarification on any of my comments. I have not made any major edits to this article, only corrected a typo I found while reading it, and ran it through IA bot. I am a fan of the Sonic franchise, however, and have made edits to other Sonic related articles. That probably doesn't matter, but I figure it doesn't hurt to note.

Overall, I do not see any major issues. The prose is generally well written, the overview is comprehensive, interesting, and well-organized, and the sources all appear to be of high quality. I only have minor trifles concerning some of the writing and context supplied:

  • "Sonic 2 features twice as many unique level tropes..." Not everyone may know what a 'level trope' is, so perhaps word that more clearly. Maybe "level gimmick" or "level feature"?
  • "Cerny was not surprised, as marketing executives controlled what games developers created and did not understand game development." I think this statement needs to be qualified in its context, specifically, what aspect of game development did Cerny believe the executives to not understand. Reading the paragraph surrounding this, it seems the conflict was that Sega management did not understand how much time the game would take? Whatever the case, I think this needs clarification.
    • I've changed it to "Cerny... believed the marketing executives who controlled game development did not understand the process"—let me know if this is better JOEBRO64 13:56, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Early in development, STI implemented a routine whereby Sonic was hurt if he ran into a wall at full speed, but removed it in later builds." Potentially unclear what "routine" means in this context. Perhaps make it instead say "In early builds, Sonic would take damage if he ran into a wall at full speed, but STI later removed this feature."
    • I've actually straight-up removed it. I don't think it's terribly important and the developers don't provide any justification behind the idea so I think we can live without it JOEBRO64 13:56, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • He didn't actually take damage, though, he just bounced back and took a second to get back up. Not that it matters. -BRAINULATOR9 (TALK) 01:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sega of America objected to the name "Miles Prower", so he was given the nickname Tails as a compromise." I personally feel this bit could do with a little extra context as to what about Miles' name was objectionable, if this is known- I assume they believed Americans would not understand or like the pun.
    • I've expanded with a bit more detail from the source. JOEBRO64 13:56, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Critics consider it an improvement over the first Sonic the Hedgehog, saying it features greater level diversity and design, better graphics, and quality-of-life improvements" Unfamiliar readers may not know what "quality-of-life" means. I would suggest wikilinking this text to wikt:quality of life to clarify.

These are all minor issues, however. Considering the general high quality of the article otherwise, this has Strong Support from me for a promotion to FA. silvia (BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4) (inquire within) 04:59, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@BlankpopsiclesilviaASHs4: thank you for the review! I've addressed all your comments JOEBRO64 13:56, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Axem Titanium[edit]

I have nits and where better to pick them than at FAC? Axem Titanium (talk) 01:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Lead
    • "Archeology" doesn't appear in ref [175]. Can you pick a different term that's more supported? Is there a Wikipedia article you can link to for this concept?
      • Changed to "research". Can't think of an article to link to, unfortunately—the closest would be The Cutting Room Floor, which isn't explicitly named in the cited ref, or debug mode, which is related but not a 100% match. (I think an "unused video game content" could be a viable potential article that could be linked, but it doesn't exist) JOEBRO64 01:43, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gameplay
    • "By default, the single-player controls both Sonic and Tails simultaneously" - Trying to keep the wikilink to single-player intact without piping leads to this unnatural construction. Can you reword?
      • I've changed it to "In the default single-player game mode, the player controls Sonic and Tails simultaneously"—is this any better? JOEBRO64 01:43, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "populate acts" - not sure I agree with the usage of "populate" here for non-person objects
    • "Knuckles the Echidna in Sonic the Hedgehog 2" - Is this the official title of a product? I don't see it in the ref.
      • Yeah, it is. I've added a ref for clarification—slipped through the cracks. JOEBRO64 01:43, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Knuckles in Sonic 2" - Following the above, the entire subhead is italicized, when only the title portion should be
      • per above, Knuckles in Sonic 2 is the official title JOEBRO64 01:43, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Development
    • Explain who Yuji Naka is before saying he quit. I don't understand why it's relevant that he quit without this context.
    • "Cerny said that this did not create "much of a creative loss"" - I don't understand what this quote means. Creative loss of talent? Loss of ideas? Need a bit more context to understand the quote, and it might be better to just reword away from a direct quote.
      • He's referring to ideas, reworded. JOEBRO64 01:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "visa problems" - change to immigration problems. Not everyone knows what a visa is without a wikilink.
    • "maximum possible speed" - Was this a hardware limitation? There must be some cap based on something
      • Clarified. For whatever reason, the Sonic 1 devs applied a cap that prevents players from obtaining Sonic's fastest speed while running. They removed it in Sonic 2 to make the gameplay faster. JOEBRO64 01:28, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Relevant links: YouTube demonstration, forum thread. Presumably, this was a bug. 01:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
    • "Tails was implemented using an artificial intelligence routine that allowed him to mimic Sonic's movements, becoming playable with a second controller" - The dependent clause "becoming..." is disconnected from the main sentence. Use a semicolon or start a new sentence.
      • I've just removed it entirely since it's mentioned in Gameplay already. JOEBRO64 01:28, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "While Yamaguchi was assisted by Jina Ishiwatari, he worked mostly alone." - What is the purpose of this sentence? Ishiwatari isn't brought up for the rest of the article. The two clauses also conflict with each other. Is he assisted or did he work alone? If you want to keep the mention of Ishiwatari, maybe describe what she did in more detail, separate from Yamaguchi.
      • I've removed her since she's not mentioned elsewhere. JOEBRO64 01:28, 20 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reception
    • Can you find any contemporary Japanese reviews? Would help globalize the section.
    • "though CVG and GamePro respectively" - awkward attempt at parallel construction, please split.
    • "GamePro writing they challenged" - missing a preposition in here
    • "the Genesis' theoretical inability of scaling" - this is impenetrable jargon, consider just excising the entire clause starting with "GamePro writing" since it seems like a very minor point
    • "considered" and "praised" are a bit overused in the Reception section; try varying up the word choice a little.
  • Post-release
    • "Aftermath" is a pretty ominous-sounding section title. Since this section discusses the next steps for the development teams, maybe try something that's more descriptive of that?
      • I've just removed the first subheading entirely, I don't think it's entirely necessary JOEBRO64 14:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Wikilink pinball
      • It's already wikilinked in development JOEBRO64 14:13, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Emulated versions of Sonic 2 ... " - the list is slightly out of chronological order
    • "offered the remake free" - offered the remake for free
  • Legacy
    • Can you avoid the phrase "fourth generation of video game consoles" in articles not specifically about that? The naming is a contentious topic on Wikipedia and you can easily write around it using the phrase "16-bit era", as that article notes it's better known by.
    • "originating the concept of the "street date"" - This feels like it can't be true. This has to be exaggeration on the part of tech executives who want to pat themselves on the back. At the very least, please make it more clear that Sonic 2sday popularized it within the games industry, not necessarily in other industries.
      • I've clarified and added another source to better back the claim. Believe it or not, it's not an exaggeration—it's widely considered the first notable case of a single, unified release date for a video game. At the time, game launches were uncoordinated and varied wildly. (For example, Super Mario Bros. 3 was released in Japan in 1988 but didn't come to the States until 1990.) After the success of Sonic 2sday, coordinated release dates became commonplace JOEBRO64 14:41, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Critics consider it an improvement over the first Sonic the Hedgehog" - This sentence is just repetition from the Reception section, but in reviews of ports. Please make this more clear and maybe find a more interesting observation to make here about the port reviews?
      • Done—changed to "Writing in retrospect, critics said it refined Sonic's formula..." JOEBRO64 14:50, 21 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ref 175 archeology, same note as above

Enjoyable read, seems comprehensive. Willing to support. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:00, 17 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments! I'll address/respond tomorrow. (I was away this past weekend so I won't have time until tomorrow afternoon) JOEBRO64 01:15, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Axem Titanium: I believe I've addressed everything. Let me know if anything else needs work JOEBRO64 14:51, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looks great, I'm satisfied. Support. Axem Titanium (talk) 03:26, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from the Night Watch[edit]

I'll try to get something up in the next few days. Ping me if I don't respond by the 27th. The Night Watch (talk) 19:02, 22 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@The Night Watch: just a nudge JOEBRO64 14:33, 28 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Very sorry about that. Let me work on this right now. The Night Watch (talk) 01:47, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lead section is well done, good job on that.
  • "Continues to receive acclaim." I think something moreso along the lines of "Retrospective reviews have given it similar acclaim, and consider it one of the greatest video games of all time." helps highlight a closer meaning to what the passage is trying to say.
  • "and most levels end after two acts rather than three." It says earlier in the paragraph that acts are the names for the levels. Do you mean zones?
  • I'm a bit confused why there is a wikilink to level design in Knuckles in Sonic 2. The wikilink leads to an article saying that level design is a discipline of game development, and not what the article is trying to say meaning the actual layout of the levels.
  • I've removed the wikilink JOEBRO64 03:21, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the development, Cerny left STI; he said that he left as development concluded" During the development of what exactly? If it is just the game, it should be just "During development", not "During the development." Adding a the may be potentially confusing.
  • "Most cuts were made to the Americans' designs, and many Americans were furious when they learned their work had been cut." —> "Most cuts were made to the Americans' designs, and many were furious when they learned their work had been removed."
  • "Meanwhile, Cerny worked with Sony Interactive Entertainment and helped create the PlayStation franchises Crash Bandicoot and Spyro the Dragon." The wikilink for the Spyro franchise should be just to Spyro, and not the first game in the series.
That’s really all from me. Another excellent Sonic article. I'll take another quick look once these points are addressed. The Night Watch (talk) 04:26, 29 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Support The Night Watch (talk) 22:57, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      Thanks! The only thing I didn't change was the "continues to receive acclaim" as I personally think it's fine as it stands and is the most concise way to express that statement, but otherwise implemented all your suggested changes. JOEBRO64 02:23, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review by Cukie Gherkin[edit]

I've reviewed all sources in the Gameplay section and found that they are accessible, reliable, and accurate to what the text is saying. Will update as I go along. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:19, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I reviewed everything except Game Players Sega Guide. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:22, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukie Gherkin: thanks for taking the time to do this! Most of the magazines cited can be found on Internet Archive or RetroCDN to assist with checking. For the Retro Gamer articles, I can shoot you an email with the PDFs if you'd like JOEBRO64 16:34, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'll go over the online sources first and then I'll give you a list of sources I couldn't access myself. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:49, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've checked through the Design section, taking a break now. Here are the sources I need assistance checking:

  • “Game Players Sega Guide”
  • “Game Informer 124”
  • “Retro Gamer 175”
  • “Sega Magazine 1997”
  • “Playing at the Next Level: A History of American Sega Games “
  • “Backstage with Sonic the Hedgehog 2 “
  • “ Console Wars: Sega, Nintendo, and the Battle That Defined a Generation” - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 17:10, 4 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished the Development section to the best of my ability. I've tried to find some of the above print sources in archive.org, but with no luck. I also couldn't check these:

  • ファンタシースター ~31年めの原点~ [Phantasy Star ~ 31st Year Origin ~]
  • "Interview with Masato Nakamura", Sonic the Hedgehog 1 & 2 Soundtrack - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 04:09, 5 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've finished the Sales section.

  • "Sega vs. Nintendo: The Rematch"
  • Mega. No. 10. (I don't even know if it's available or not, I can't narrow it down lol)
  • "Official Gallup UK Mega Drive Sales Chart". Mega. No. 6.
  • "Top 20: The Charts". Mega. No. 7

Sorry about that, busy couple of days. Gonna get back to it now. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, "a lot of 2s" is so confusing to my tiny brain. I get the gist of it, but I wonder if the quote is needed or if the gist can stand on its own. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All right, I've finished with the source review. I can't speak to what the sources say in the above-mentioned list due to limited access. However, I'm confident that, of all the sources I've checked, none of them have any disparities between them and what the article claims they say, and the citations are all formatted accurately. The article is also well-written, and the images are appropriately handled. Assuming that the print sources are accurate, I'm willing to Support this article being approved for featured article status. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 16:45, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Cukie Gherkin: Thank you for taking the time to do this! I really appreciate it. I can still email you a sample of the print references for a spotcheck, if you'd like JOEBRO64 02:32, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments[edit]

  • There are a number of p./pp. errors. Eg cites 30, 31 and others.
    • Fixed. When I was writing the article, I was working from translations provided by an author of a Mega Drive interview compilation; since the original sources were in Japanese, I forgot to go back to the PDFs to correct the page numbers after I finished writing. I've done that now. JOEBRO64 01:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are a lot of cases where "p." needs replacing with 'pp.'. Eg cites 89, 92, 93, 97, 99, 100, 102. There are others.
Ah, misunderstood—I've addressed this. JOEBRO64 22:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • What rationale are you using for including publisher location or not for books?
    • I add the location for every print reference. I might've missed a few when I was transferring references from older versions of the article to the current one. I'll take a look and get 'em sorted out tomorrow. JOEBRO64 02:30, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Resolved JOEBRO64 00:36, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks.
  • Skid & Brody: are the first names of either of these authors known?
    • Did some checking—Skid was the pseudonym of Dave Halverson according to a Hardcore Gaming 101 article [2]. (In case there are any questions, there is consensus that HG101 is reliable at WP:VG/S and the author of this article is a published author who's written for other reliable sources.) Couldn't find out who Brody was unfortunately. JOEBRO64 01:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It now needs moving into alphabetical order.
Done JOEBRO64 22:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 20:21, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: I've responded to everything above, let me know if you have any other concerns. JOEBRO64 01:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A couple of comebacks above. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:04, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Sorry for the delay, it's all done JOEBRO64 22:53, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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