Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/State Route 74 (New York – Vermont)

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:39, 20 January 2009 [1].

State Route 74 (New York – Vermont)[edit]

Nominator(s): Mitch32(Go Syracuse) and DurovaCharge!

We're nominating this article for featured article because after several months of working, this article, (formerly New York State Route 74), is now a great co-nom and we believe it meets criteria. We're open to all comments. Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 00:03, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:15, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This article did not go through a successful ACR - I am reviewing it here:

  • Lead: At Lake Champlain comma
  • "The highway has a short concurrency with 22A " - SR 22A?
  • 1.1 - Route 74 intersects with the north–south U.S. Route 9 shortly after the northbound ramps of the Adirondack Northway, then meets Stowell Road before crossing the Schroon River. - run-on
  • "Shortly afterward" comma
  • "After leaving Eagle Lake" comma
  • "NY 74 intersects with New York State Route 9N and New York State Route 22 in the hamlet. The latter of the two highways becomes concurrent with 74." - combine sentences (now is a run-on - use a semicolon)
  • "The highway passes the entrance to Fort Ticonderoga shortly before passing the Ticonderoga Amtrak station, then terminates at a ferry landing by Lake Champlain at the state border." - run-on
  • 1.2 - last 2 cites could be combined.
  • At 0.49 miles (0.79 km), Route 74 intersects with Route 73, then encounters Barnum Hill Road shortly afterward. - run-on. "before encountering"?
  • VT then turns to the northeast at Smith Street and enters a patch of forest. - VT 74?
  • Early history - Minerva split from Crown Point in March 1817, then another municipal reorganization in 1840 implemented further reductions to the land area of Crown Point. - then -> before?
  • Perhaps current USD conversions should be given for the dollar amounts? - not addressed
  • 3.1 - Shoreham center - you mean town center?
  • Might be nice to add some links to section 4.
  • --Rschen7754 (T C) 07:40, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There's nothing wrong with forgoing a comma after an introductory "Shortly afterward" or "After leaving Eagle Lake". Some people want a comma, which is their stylistic choice; some people don't, which is theirs. I've had nothing to do with the editing of this article but I'd tend to skip the comma. Morenoodles (talk) 06:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done, Rschen.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 15:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Finished.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 22:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize for the delay. I hope to address this within 48 hours. --Rschen7754 (T C) 03:15, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done, once again, Rschen.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 14:48, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support meets FAC and USRD standards. --Rschen7754 (T C) 19:14, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I'm not happy with the way the article treats the reader like an ignoramus or amnesiac. It starts New York State Route 74 and Vermont Route 74 are state highways running through Essex County, New York and Addison County, Vermont in the United States (my emphasis). Do the writers, or do those who opine in these FAC affairs, seriously propose that there are people who are likely to be sufficiently interested in "State Route 74 (New York–Vermont)" to want to read an article about it but who wouldn't realize that it was in the U.S.? Pull the other one! (If this is done in deference to some rule of "MOS", it shows that MOS badly needs fixing.) Morenoodles (talk) 06:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LEAD? --Rschen7754 (T C) 07:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This very sensibly does not mandate specification of nation(s). It says It should establish the context in which the topic is being considered. The context is here established as New York and Vermont. People know where these are. Morenoodles (talk) 07:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia's readers are not exclusively from the United States, so that clarification provides necessary context for foreign readers. –Juliancolton Happy Holidays 15:02, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've removed it temporarily until the decision is made to keep it.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 15:05, 26 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
On the whole I'd leave it in. How ignorant would one have to be to think, for example, that Vermont might be in Canada? Perhaps not very. Johnbod (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, not very. But these "foreign" readers are expected to be interested in a "State Route" yet think that Vermont might be in Canada (or Mexico)? I think not. (Incidentally, I'm "foreign".) Morenoodles (talk) 09:27, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Per WP:DASH, en dash in title should be spaced, as "New York" has an internal space in it. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:14, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 20:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose on criterion 3 File:New York and Vermont Route 74 map.png - This image needs to list the source for the map information more specifically. It needs to be specific enough that a reader could find the information off-wiki, if they wanted to. Awadewit (talk) 22:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finished.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 22:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose stricken. Awadewit (talk) 22:41, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Support Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • Does "United States" really need to be linked? WP:OVERLINK advocates against linking well-known geographical locations, and most (if not all) readers know what and where the United States is. done
  • "It passes the entrance to Fort Ticonderoga along its 20.44 mi (32.89 km) route." I think it says somewhere in MOS that units should be spelled out in full on their first appearance. done
  • "Multiple realignments have also occurred on the corresponding Vermont highway" Passive voice seems unnecessary, why not: "The corresponding Vermont highway has also been realigned multiple times." done
  • "eastward out of Schroon." "out of"-->from, maybe? done
  • "Cotters Pond is a small landmark located beyond a few mountains and hills on the southern side of Route 74 near the end of Paradox Lake." Rather out of the blue, is there no further description? done (There are little sources for that)
  • "The highway then terminates at a ferry landing by Lake Champlain at the state border.[5]" done
  • "1.1 inches (2.8 cm) steel cables"-->1.1-inch (2.8 cm) steel cables... done
  • "At 0.49 miles (0.79 km), Route 74 intersects with Route 73" Do you mean "After" instead of "At"? done
  • "European-descended settlement" Don't understand, do you mean those of European descent (no need to change)? done
  • "by selling a total of 600 shares" done
  • "The stretch from North Hudson to Tawahus is currently designated as County Route 84" "Currently" is implied by the present tense. done
  • "Spring 2014." Why the capitalization? Is there any way to disambiguate these seasons? Spring means different things in different part of the world—and nothing in other parts. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:19, 1 January 2009 (UTC) done[reply]
  • "It extends 20.44-mile" Not an adjective here, try "It extends 20.44 miles..." done
  • "Due to extensive designation reassignments during the twentieth century the entire length of the present highway consists of renamed segments from other New York state highways." A comma for readability would be preferable here, perhaps after "century"? done
  • "Funding will come entirely from state sources and run an estimated cost of $8.6 million." done
  • Image captions that are nominal groups should not have a period (full stop) at the end, for example: "NY 74 reference marker approaching its eastern terminus." done
  • "sixteen ton tugboat"-->sixteen-ton tugboat done
  • "After 0.49-mile (0.79 km) "-->After 0.49 miles (0.79 km)... done
All done. Thanks for the check.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 18:06, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am only weakly supporting because while the article is mostly good, it could use with some polishing by someone new to the article, as evidenced by these issues from three small-to-medium sized paragraphs:
  • "The Ticonderoga–Larrabees Point Ferry is the oldest and southernmost ferry on Lake Champlain and is one of the last remaining cable ferries in North America." I don't see where this fact is in the source.
    • I still can't find it. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:35, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Found it, half the sentence wasn't in it. The part about the Lake Champlain one is in the source.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 16:38, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The seven minute passage" Hyphenate "seven-minute".
  • "The United States Coast Guard inspects the ferry because Lake Champlain is a federal waterway.[7]" I don't see how this is really relevant to an article about a road.
  • "The current ferry barge is powered by a sixteen-ton tugboat built in 1979 that can hold up to 18 cars and has been in operation since 1959." Logical flow is off here, sounds like the tugboat was built in 1979 but has been in operation since 1959. Is it really that important to know when the tugboat was built?
  • "Route 74 intersects with Route 73 before encountering Barnum Hill Road shortly afterward. " Why is "afterward" necessary? You already said that the intersection with Route 73 is before the encounter with Barnum Hill Road.
  • "Within central Shoreham" Comma after this phrase.
  • "As VT 74 leaves the densely populated portion of Shoreham" Comma after here also. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
All done.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 02:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Disappointed.

  • Yes, "United States" is still linked after Dabomb's comment. done
  • Spell out "mile", I suggest. done
  • Why insist on the bolding? The readers will lose the sense of the point you're making, so why make it? The appearance is slightly messy. done
  • The lead is just so boring. I'm sorry to be negative, but it's just full of numbers and letter symbols and does zilch, niente, zero, null, to interest the reader. It's a structural problem. The infoblot at the top doesn't help: it just makes things busier, and the map is so small (without clicking on it) that it adds little meaning. How nice it would be to have the first real pic at the top instead—or even that interesting historical map.
  • "Larabees Point Ferry history" is a clunky subtitle. "Repaving plans" seems hardly worth a new section—it takes five seconds to read. done
  • On many displays the pic will overlap with the table. done
  • It does warm up as you persist reading through, but the opening is very disappointing. I think these highway articles are being churned out to a certain formula that does not serve some of the individual topics well. Tony (talk) 15:59, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not opposing; just disappointed to see a FA factory churning out large quantities. Has anyone taken stock of the program? I wonder whether it's time to be choosier about which highways you work up to FA nomination, on the basis of historical, social, geographical and technical interest. Otherwise, they become a little thin for "our very best work". I have in mind that there might be a slightly more international flavour to the WikiProject, rather than concentrating exclusively on US highways. Spot check on one little bit:
    • "approximately one for every ten miles completed highway"—"of" is missing.
    • "The turnpike management raised funds by selling 600 shares valued at $25 each. $20,000 was also readied for properties along the highway." Remove "varied"; what does "readied" mean here? Tony (talk) 13:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done again.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 14:30, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit polysyllabic, no? (My favorite nugget: "extensive designation reassignments", which I think means "many name changes".) And are formalize and upgrade happy as intransitive verbs (in the start)? Morenoodles (talk) 09:33, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read The area's first municipality was the town of Crown Point, which originally included considerable portions of thinly populated land that later developed into separate townships. The first of these divisions occurred on March 20, 1804 with the establishment of the town of Schroon. I'll admit that I'm not familiar with US naming (as I was recently reminded by the way the humble Wasilla -- no university, no cathedral, not much obvious spark(le) to its cultural life -- was solemnly called a "city"). However, I thought that "municipality" was no more than a grand term for "town" in the legal sense of the latter. A "town" that "originally included considerable portions of thinly populated land" is not a town as I normally understand "town" and surely it must only be a town in the legal sense. Let's provisionally -- just here, not in the article -- write town with this legal sense as "Town", with a capital T. So now we have The area's first Town was the Town of Crown Point.... I don't see how this differs from The area's first Town was Crown Point.... This entity became more populated and bits of it split off as townships. The first time this happened was with the establishment on one day of the town of Schroon. Now, what I think of as a normal town, like Witney or Kremnica, became established over centuries; one-day establishments surely refer to a legal process. OK, but if so then this is actually the Town of Schroon. But it's also a "township". Yet "township" has a certain legalistic air to it: how can something be both a township and a Town? All in all I'm very confused by all of this. And I wonder how much is necessary; I mean, what matters is roughly how many people were roughly where, and what their settlements were popularly called, not boundaries and incorporations. Or anyway so I'd have thought. Morenoodles (talk) 10:41, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In New York State, towns are minor civil divisions and do often contain considerable rural territory in addition to one or more compact settlements. In other words, towns = townships as a general rule in New York and are legally municipalities. The term township is not really used locally. Although you do have a point that some of this municipal information is probably unnecessary detail for this article and can be streamlined. --Polaron | Talk 14:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What Polaron said. In New York State (unlike most of the U.S.), township is a level of local government between village and county: one township may include several villages. So township has a specific legal meaning in that state, while municipality is more of an umbrella term when referring to local governmental bodies. DurovaCharge! 20:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I stand corrected. But I'm still a bit bewildered: In this context (as opposed to an article on the demographic and governmental history of the area) this kind of thing seems rather nitpicky (as Polaron too seems to think). And a correct understanding of it seems to assume a degree of familiarity with the area that I think would only be shared by people who knew Vermont was in the US. Morenoodles (talk) 08:23, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I think that this article meets the criteria for a Featured Article. Sam Blab 15:06, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Additional image review: File:Eagle Lake Adirondacks New York.jpg was uploaded by Urban (who has many uploads deleted), claims to be GFDL but lists "Copyright: © Jared C. Benedict." The source is also not pointing to the page where the image resides (the photo gallery has 64 main pages). Benedict is a user here (User:Redjar), who have uploaded some of his photos under CC. It is possible that he may not have released this Eagle Lake photo under GFDL or for public use, and I have notified him of this.[2] Jappalang (talk) 01:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well. I don't think it matters. I removed the image as a precaution.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 01:33, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No problems then. Jappalang (talk) 01:37, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question: Is it usual to not talk about the geography and/or demography of the road? Forex, by looking at the 1836 map, it looks as if the highway goes through some hills. That's not stated anywhere in the article. I've got a similar question about what surrounds the road -- is it a built-up area or rural? I can infer some of that from the maps, but it's not stated anywhere in the article. Again, I'm not familiar with road wikiproject style, but those questions occurred to me as I read, and answering them might make the article more useful for a reader. Other than that, it looks like a good article. It made me interested enough to read the whole thing, after all! :) JKBrooks85 (talk) 11:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With an 1836 map,no, but with the current day info, yes. I did write about that, I did a lot of that in the Route description.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:50, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments
  • Due to extensive designation reassignments during the twentieth century, the entire length of the present highway consists of renamed segments from other New York state highways. - "twentieth century" → "Twentieth Century"?
    • Why? Such a change introduces yet more unneeded pomposity. For if "extensive designation reassignments", phrase I brought up weeks ago, means something other than "much renaming", I don't know what it means. Morenoodles (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not done on condition that no one agrees here.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's only a change in capitalization... –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 14:08, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
But I have never seen "twentieth century" capitalized when used as a chronological item. See 20th century. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The starting interchange has a view of local landmark Severance Hill, which reaches an altitude of 1,600 feet (490 m). - Original research, not supported by given source.
Reworded.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The highway passes the entrance to Fort Ticonderoga and the Ticonderoga Amtrak station. The highway terminates at a ferry landing by Lake Champlain at the state border. - Avoid starting consecutive sentences with the same thing.
  • The current ferry barge, in operation since 1959, is powered by a sixteen-ton tugboat built in 1979 that can hold up to 18 cars.[7] The seasonal ferry is half a mile long and operates from May through October.[8][9] The seven-minute passage operates during daylight hours.[7] - Redundant sentence structure. I suggest: "In operation since 1959, the current ferry barge is powered by a sixteen-ton tugboat built in 1979 that can hold up to 18 cars.[7] The seasonal ferry is half a mile long and operates during daylight hours from May through October.[8][9]" The bit about how long it takes is pretty trivial, IMO.
    • Lots of operation in that; how about The current ferry barge, in use since 1959, is powered by a sixteen-ton tugboat built in 1979 that can hold up to 18 cars. The seasonal ferry, taking seven minutes to go half a mile, runs in daylight hours from May through October. But far more worrisome is the assertion that the tugboat holds cars and is followed by a barge. In the land of the automotively free, what can be in that barge? Isn't it the barge that holds the cars? Morenoodles (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not done, again because of disagreements.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article as a whole needs a check of comma usage. Commas are often a personal preference, but in some sentences, such as "Through this stretch the highway winds through forests and occasional farmland", the lack of a comma is confusing.
  • Two toll gates were erected specifically for use on the highway, and the charter allowed for additional toll gates at a spacing of approximately one for every ten miles of completed highway. The turnpike management raised funds by selling 600 shares valued at $25 each. - Remove "specifically".
    • Well, yes. Feel free to go ahead and remove it. Morenoodles (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • $20,000 was also set aside for properties along the highway. - Is this 1832 USD, or 2009 USD?
Done.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • On the Vermont side, the road connecting Larrabees Point to the main north-south highways in the area was designated in the mid-1920s as Vermont Route F-9. - "North-south" needs an en dash.
    • More importantly, "named" instead of "designated as". Morenoodles (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The project is in preliminary development. Construction is expected to begin in early 2013 and reach completion about a year later. - Choppy prose. Is it possible to merge these sentences?
Done.Mitch32(Go Syracuse)
  • According to its website, the ferry operated informally from 1759 and in an organized way from 1799. - "According to its website" would imply that other sources contradict it; is this so?
    • I don't read it this way. Instead, I read it as a subtle warning, pitched about right, of sub-optimal sourcing. Morenoodles (talk) 06:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good otherwise. The article has definitely improved since its last FAC. –Juliancolton Tropical Cyclone 18:58, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Final disagreement, so not done either.Mitch32(Go Syracuse) 11:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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