Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Suicidal Tour/archive1

Suicidal Tour

Featured article candidates/Suicidal Tour/archive1

Nominator(s): – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a tour undertaken by a Brazilian football club which quickly spiraled into chaos, becoming more and more unbelievable as it goes on. My first FAC! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:21, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from PMC

Within the week, badger me if I forget. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well, slow night at work, so here we are. Please don't be freaked out by the number of comments, I write down everything that comes to mind when reading FACs. Suggested re-phrasings are always suggestions, feel free to do your own thing. If sources don't have info that I'm asking about, don't worry about it. Finally, I'm always open to discussion or disagreement - you're the one who knows the content, and FAC reviewers aren't infallible. And away we go!

Lead

"looking to raise funds in friendly matches" - phrasing a bit odd here. Maybe "playing friendly matches to raise funds" or "playing friendly matches as a fundraiser"?
Picked the first phrasing.
Nice use of "who knows what the truth is" footnote :)
Thanks! :)
Sentence two is so, so long. Can it be split?
Split into two, let me know if it needs to be split further.
"misfortune, danger, and tragedy" - this feels a bit like over-egging the pudding. Can we pick one?
Went with misfortune.
Might link Nazism in Brazil since otherwise it's likely to be confusing (or maybe Brazil in World War II)
Went with Brazil in World War II.

Natal

Any details about what the financial crisis was or why it was happening? (Was it related to WW2?)
Added.
Link North Region again
Done.
For the ignorant among us, how would playing exhibition matches make them money?
I assume it was through ticket revenue, but none of the sources actually spell it out.
There's nothing more funny yet annoying than running into a situation like that, where every source is like "obviously everyone will know what a blorbo is, I don't have to explain" and then it turns no one knows what the damn blorbo is because no one explained it
Recommend linking Brazil in World War II and maybe noting that German U-boats were patrolling the area, because many people might not realize they were
Linked.
Actually, the above three suggestions might fit well in a "Background" section (and you could give some brief background on the team)
Created the background section.
Looking good! (years ago I got taught to do Background sections and I've found it's such a help with setting up the rest of the prose)
Is Santa Cruz from Pernambuco? I assume yes, but it's not clear - they could just be visiting there. Good fodder for the background section
Yes. Added to background section.
"local state's team" - no link I guess?
Nope, not even an interlanguage link. :(
Might want to clarify that Belem is a city, and add the state
Added the state.
I don't think "by" is needed when you're giving a whole-game score. You don't "win by" 7-2, you win 7-2, and win by 5 points. See what I mean?
Removed the "by"s.
Why is Remo 5 to 3 when everything else is given with a dash? Consistency is important
Dash'd.
Might be worth clarifying that all those teams are based in the city of Belém, as that's not clear from context
Added. Doesn't read too smoothly imo, but it works.
Are there no details in any sourcing about any of these games?
There's some small details about them in modern sources, but definitely not anything substantial. Contemporary sources have some more stuff, but I'm not if in-game details really matter that much here, since the article is more about the overarching story than anything.
Ah, just checking, in case any of them had any disastrous incidents :P

Manaus

Again, might want to clarify that Manaus is a city, and add the state
Done.
Do we know who invited them?
Clarified in background section.
Was the head of delegation a player also, or like a coach?
Clarified in background section.
I know we don't always link countries, but I think Peru and Guyana are reasonably relevant links here
Done.
Link Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Brazil)
Done.
I know the answer is likely WW2, but why were clubs not supposed to leave?
Added.
"Under the possibility of being suspended for 90 days" - phrasing a bit awkward here
- Suspended from what?
  I don't know, none of the sources elaborate on what the "suspension" would be.
- If they can be suspended for leaving, it's not really a request not to leave, is it?
  Clarified, hopefully.
- I might suggest moving the suspension to the previous sentence, or rewording a bit
  Reworded.
"relapsed from the dysentery" - "had a relapse of dysentery" is more correct
Done.
Are first names known for King and Papeira? If so, please include them on first mention; if not, maybe footnote it (if a roster is known, it might be worth putting one in a table in Background)
I couldn't find Papeira's first name anywhere. Including only King's name is kind of awkward in my opinion, so I'd rather not add it. Added the roster.
Fair. You may want to footnote somewhere about names being unknown/the one-word-nickname tradition thing
Done.
"both having disobeyed previous medical orders" about what?
Added.
To be fair I'm not sure I could restrain myself from eating eggs and lobster either
"but all maritime travel was prohibited by the Brazilian government" - since when? they were boating before, no?
Added date.

Belém

"Defender Pedrinho" first name thing again
- @Premeditated Chaos: - just jumping in here to point out that Brazilian footballers are generally known by a single name e.g. Pelé, Cafu, Dunga, Tarciso, etc -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:12, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  - Often, but not always, but I'll leave that to Hilst to confirm if that was the case at this time. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 11:21, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I believe so, since the majority of the players in the earlier 1938 World Cup squad are listed by a single name. – Hilst (talk | contribs) 00:49, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did Pedrinho still get to play in the game?
I'm not sure if he did play against Remo, but he did play against Paisandu on the 9th. Added.
"was also a club director, and was interested in the player's abilities." - so... he was going to arrest him then seduce him into joining his own team?
Correct!
- I'm dying to know how he thought that was going to go, loooool
"Sidinho, who had defected to the club a week earlier" - who is Sidinho? What is "the club" that he defected to?
Added him to the roster at the top (confusingly, there's two players named Sidinho, and sources don't agree on how to spell their names...). "To the club" is a typo, it should've just been "defected the club". Rewrote the whole sentence.
"The club then played..." I would flip the clauses in this sentence and remove "then"
Done? I'll be honest, I'm not happy with either version
- Fair, I think it works better this way but if you want to change it another way it won't affect my support
"before the end of the game" could tighten to "during the game"; similarly "After the end of the match" could be tightened to "After the match"
Done.
commemorated - I think you might want commiserated instead
Done.
"the Taça Cidade de Recife" - the what
Translated "taça" to "trophy".
- Sure, but what's the trophy for? I thought these were largely exhibition matches?
  Clarified.
"starting the journey back" via? And if by boat, when did the government stop prohibiting maritime travel? (or are we riverboating here)
Via boat. No idea when they started allowing it again.
Is it possible to try to track this down? It's just that it sort of presents a thread that can be pulled on. If you can't find it, that's fine.
No dice.
Were the trophies valuable in and of themselves?
Probably? Since they went out of their way to hide them, they probably had some value, but I can't verify it.
"boat was retained" - I think you want detained
I think either one works, see wikt:reter#Portuguese.
Sure but we're not writing in Portuguese; "retain" in English lacks implication of legal matters that "detain" has.
Done.
for the Campeonato Pernambucano - context? Even if you just say "the state championship, the Campeonato Pernambucano"
Done.

Okay! Overall I think this is a well-researched and interesting article. It could use some polishing to get to the FA level, but it's definitely doable and I look forward to seeing it get there. No rush on responses. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:49, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Premeditated Chaos: I've addressed all of your comments. Thank you for checking my article! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hilst:, responses to a few things above, anything not commented on looks fine to me. The question about the value of the trophies has no response - possibly missed? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh my god, I have no idea how I missed that. Sorry! Unless I've missed something else, @Premeditated Chaos, it's done! sorry for the pings too lmao – Hilst (talk | contribs) 20:32, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. I'm a support :) ♠PMC♠ (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Joeyquism

Committing to a review in the next couple of days. Congratulations on the successful GAN for this, and welcome to FAC! joeyquism (talk) 01:33, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Link football in the lead, so we know exactly which sport we are talking about
Done.
In the lead you have "friendly match" (unlinked) but in the body you have "exhibition match" (linked).
Swapped the links and renamed the second instance to friendly.
Both should be linked -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:23, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Done.
"including a lack of funds, the threat of Nazi attacks and deaths" => "including a lack of funds, the threat of Nazi attacks, and deaths"
Done.
Link the club again in the body (and also show full name, like in the lead)
Done.
"where they beat Transviário Esporte Clube 7–2, Tuna Luso 3–1" => "where they beat Transviário Esporte Clube 7–2 and Tuna Luso 3–1"
Done.
"drew with the Pará state team 3–3, 4–4 with Paysandu" => "drew 3–3 with the Pará state team and 4–4 with Paysandu"
Done.
"While the team's delegation intended for the matches in Belém to be the last ones of the excursion" => "Although the team's delegation intended for the matches in Belém to be the last ones of the excursion"
Done.
"they lost their first game in Amazonas to Olímpico by 3–2" => "they lost their first game in Amazonas 3–2 to Olímpico"
Done.
"the head of delegation and six players" => "the head of the delegation and six players"
Done.
"Defender Pedrinho was sent an arrest warrant" - I am pretty sure that arrest warrants are not sent to the suspect. Maybe "An arrest warrant was issued for defender Pedrinho"
Fixed.
"being accused of "doing evil to a 17-year-old girl"" => "as he was accused of "doing evil to a 17-year-old girl""
Done.
"It turned out that the police officer who ordered his arrest was also a club director" - which club?
No idea, none of the sources mention it by name.
"Santa Cruz entering the field before a game in Belém." - this doesn't need a full stop
Removed.
Do we really need the exact time of King's death and (particularly) funeral? If you feel we do, I think they should be shown using the 12-hour clock i.e. 2.35am and 4.00pm
Removed the funeral time. I believe the 24-hour format is more appropriate here, since that's the one that is used in Brazil.
"At 16:30,[16] before the end of the game" => "At 4.30pm,[16] before the end of the game"
See above.
"but had to return to São Luís due a thunderstorm" => "but had to return to São Luís due to a thunderstorm"
Fixed.
"The players then decided to go to Teresina, Piauí, via train" => "The players then decided to go to Teresina, Piauí, by train"
Done.
"Papeira's briefcase was given to his family, but King's briefcase could not be returned" - just a guess as I can't read the source but I suspect they were suitcases rather than briefcases
Done.

-- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: Done all, thanks for commenting! – Hilst (talk | contribs) 22:24, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild

Recusing to review.

"they played over 25 matches". Is the exact number of matches played not known? Ok, one needs to read the unobtrusive note. Suggest 'they played either 26 or 28 matches'.
Leads are not usually cited, as they are summaries of the main articles, which will be cited.
"and had to subsist off of their football grounds". I don't understand how their grounds (why plural?) helped them financially.
"and the monthly payments from their associates." What associates? I mean, are we even talking people or organisations? And why were they paying money to the club?
"Santa Cruz's directors decided to take a "quick spin" in the North Region". Why the colloquialism and the unattributed quote? 'take a short tour' would be more encyclopedic.
Who or what were "Transviário Esporte Clube"?
"The tour started at the height of World War II". What does at the height of mean. Perhaps 'in the middle of'.
"Due to fears of possible Nazi submarine attacks". Replace "Nazi" with 'German'.
"Afterwards, Santa Cruz traveled to" → 'Afterwards, the delegation traveled to'.

"Although the team's delegation intended for the matches in Belém". Suggest deleting "for".
"The club left for Manaus on 25 January". I suggest you stick with "delegation" throughout.
In the first paragraph of the Manaus section I suggest that you make it clear that they were travelling up the Amazon River.
"both having disobeyed the medical orders." What were the medical orders, and in what way were they disobeyed?
"Santa Cruz intended to return ..." This reads oddly. Firstly, in what way is the football club synonymous with the delegation; secondly, I don't see how a football club is capable of intentionality, this is usually reserved for people.
A map of Brazil showing the key places mentioned would greatly help.
"An arrest warrant was sent for defender Pedrinho". What do you mean by "was sent for"?
"the police officer who ordered his arrest was also a club director". Of which club? Santa Cruz?
"Santa Cruz suffered their first casualty shortly thereafter". Suggest 'Santa Cruz suffered their first casualty shortly after'.
"being accompanied by a large crowd." Suggest deleting "being".
"Due to King's death, Cidinho, who had defected from Santa Cruz a week earlier, returned to the club." Who was Cidinho, why did he "defect", what does "defect" mean here, and why did King's death cause him to return?
"A minute of silence was held before the match." It would be more usual to say 'A minute of silence was observed before the match.'
What is "the Cidade do Recife trophy"?
"substituting for an injured teammate." The cook won't have been a teammate of the injured player. Better to say something like 'injured member of the delegation'.
"The players returned to playing football on 2 May". "returned to"? They had just played 26/28 matches.
You state it is disputed whether 26 or 28 matches were played, then list every one. Which two are disputed?

Gog the Mild (talk) 22:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

source review from sawyer777

an interesting topic and it looks like no one's done a source review yet, so i'll do one this weekend probably. ... sawyer * he/they * talk 04:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]