Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Zaian War/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 10:01, 19 April 2013 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Zaian War[edit]

Zaian War (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Dumelow (talk) 11:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I am renominating this article after its previous FAC was closed due to lack of participation (with no opposes). You can find the previous nomination here. I tend to be quite busy during the week but will try to answer any queries as soon as possible, at the weekend if necessary, so please bear with me. Many thanks - Dumelow (talk) 11:05, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support on prose per standard disclaimer, as previously. - Dank (push to talk) 16:21, 29 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I can't find anything wrong with this article at all. Thomas85753 17:13, 31 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • On comprehensiveness and prose, Support Comments - taking a look now...will jot notes below. a nice read. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:42, 1 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Naturally an enemy of the French following their deposing ... - I'd say "Naturally" is redundant here. It also threw me - it took me a couple of reads to take the sentence in.
Removed - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
the "most powerful religious personality of the south east". - the quotation marks are jarring to read - re-write without the quote marks.
I think I prefer to leave the quote in here as it is directly attributed to de Segonzac in the same sentence - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I see your point and that is a good reason. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
doing so would "finish him off definitively" and cut the Zaian off from support of other tribes - re-write without the quote marks.
Again because I have directly attributed this in the same sentence I prefer to leave the quote - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
as preceding. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
After suffering some sniping attacks in Teguet, - Maybe "After suffering some casualties from sniping attacks in Teguet," or "After enduring/withstanding some sniping attacks in Teguet," (suffering attacks sounds weird)
Replaced with "endured" - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The columns suffered repeated, strong attacks by Zaian tribesmen that day - as preceding...
Replaced with "experienced" - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
owing to their "extraordinary stubbornness and tenacity" - re-write without the quote marks.
Removed quote - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
stating that the "fate of Morocco will be determined in Lorraine". - re-write without the quote marks.
Once more I prefer to leave the quote here as it is a direct statement from the French government of the time and is attributed - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
''Henrys determined to "strike hard and fast" to prevent the "Laverdure disaster" j - re-write without the quote marks (x2)
Removed quotes - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
He imposed a "war penalty" - I don't think this needs quotation marks
Removed - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
without risking "an extremely painful mountain war" - here "painful" is quite a vivid adjective not really captured by another word, I'd reword this to "without risking "an extremely painful" mountain conflict '" - or somesuch.
Reworded - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lyautey returned to his former position in Morocco at the end of May and immediately decided on a new strategy, concentrating his forces in the Moulouya Valley, convinced that the submission of the tribes in this area would lead to the collapse of the Zaian resistance - long sentence - split please
Split sentence - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
to have "almost annihilated" his foe re-write without the quote marks...."have nearly wiped out his foe??
Reworded - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise looking fairly good and from what I can make out, on target for prose and comprehensiveness requirements. I did wonder whether a further sentence at the bottom on their being peace until independence (if this is the case) was warranted, thus settling the place of the conflict in Moroccan history? Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:48, 2 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review and edits, I have edited the article and commented above. With regards to the three quotes that I left I believe they are warranted but am open to further discussion on the matter. I will have a look at the sources to see if I can find something about peace in the area. I believe Morocco as a whole was fairly peaceful until the riots during the campaign for independence in the 50s but it is possible that there was some local trouble in the Atlas mountains - Dumelow (talk) 08:28, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added a little to the end about continued resistance to French rule culminating in independence - Dumelow (talk) 09:09, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Good - I think that last tiny bit really cements it in Morocco's timeline for the reader, and really works well to give the article a conclusion. Casliber (talk · contribs) 09:54, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

  • Can we get a map that shows where Taza and Khenifra are in Morocco, as well as the Middle Atlas?
I will have a look round and see if I can find something on commons later today or else create something - Dumelow (talk) 08:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have created a map that shows almost all the locations mentioned in the article and replaced the map in the infobox - Dumelow (talk) 12:14, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Date ranges in captions, etc., require a ndash.
I got the one in the caption, I think the others have already been done (I can't tell the difference between a hyphen and an n-dash myself but a ctrl-f search shows no hyphens in date ranges for me now) - Dumelow (talk) 08:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • The license of File:Sureda glaoui painting.jpg needs to be filled out properly
Think I got the missing parameters - Dumelow (talk) 08:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other images appropriately licensed.
  • Lyautey overlinked
I could only find three links to Lyautey (in the lede, main body and infobox), have I missed one? - Dumelow (talk) 08:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If it's linked in the lede, I don't link it in the main body, but maybe that's just me.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should there be a plural s here? markets were closed to the Zaian. This is a recurring problem, or is there something that I'm missing about this?
You would be correct. I think I must have assumed that it didn't pluralise but a check of the sources reveals it does, I have fixed this - Dumelow (talk) 08:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Henri Gouraud, I have tried to clarfiy this in the article. Thanks for your review - Dumelow (talk) 08:15, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Everything has been resolved to my satisfaction.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Support. This is really excellent. It's beautifully written, engaging, thoughtfully illustrated, and well researched. Clearly a lot of effort has gone into this. I made a few very minor copy-edits, but the article clearly deserves its star. I had just a couple of queries:

  • Any idea why the remaining forces were ordered to withdraw to coastal enclaves rather than just remaining where they were or joining the rest on the Western Front?
They were more easily defensible, I have added this to the sentence - Dumelow (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • 20 battalions of legionnaires (mainly German and Austrian)? It seems odd that German and Austrian nationals would be serving in French forces while their nations were at war with France
Germans historically made up a significant portion of the foreign legion - it was around 34% German in 1904. Though this had dropped to 16% by the start of the war (and to 12% for 1914-18) the French were left with a significant component of their best light infantry unit who might be reluctant to fight against the country of their birth. The French government did not expect their German and Austrian soldiers to fight on the western front and so they were kept in the colonies, mostly North Africa (though German and Austrian soldiers who had earnt naturalisation through long service or were Français par le sang versé (by spilled blood) did fight against their former countries). As a result the legion forces for much of the Zaian war had a majority German/Austrian presence. I have added a footnote that tries to clarify this - Dumelow (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:45, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review. I have commented above and will try to get around to your image queries later or maybe on Saturday, cheers - Dumelow (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, that clarifies things. The footnote about the Germans and Austrians is particularly interesting. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:40, 11 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images are fine (queries below are resolved)
    • File:Bundesarchiv Bild 102-00721, Marokko, Fremdenlegion.jpg: I'd be somehwhat sceptical that the German Federal Archives would own a photo of the French Foreign Legion, especially if they don't know who the author is. It's likely that the author of a photo taken in 1920 has been deceased for 70+ years and the copyright would have expired, but Commons is inconsistent on that, and the prevailing opinion seems to be that we can only make this assumption when the image is >100 years old.
I was under the impression that the German Federal Archives had checked they owned the license to each image before releasing them? I would think that if they cannot identify the author then no-one else can, as they are unable to ascertain to do so by reasonable means they would be able to claim Template:Anonymous-EU, I think. [I know very little about image copyrights so might well be wrong] - Dumelow (talk) 07:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I asked about this on Commons and apparently the Archives acquired the estate of the original copyright holder, which would indeed give them the ability to release it as CC-By-SA. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:30, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent news, thanks for looking into that HJ - Dumelow (talk) 19:08, 15 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No idea I'm afraid. The author is not identified in the original publication and I haven't been able to find them by searching the net - Dumelow (talk) 07:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • More information on File:German POWs in morocco WWI.jpg would be nice so its copyright status outside the US can be properly evaluated, but again, it's locally uploaded and PD in the US, so it's fine for enwiki's purposes.
According to the source page it was printed by the Schmitt brothers. I searched about a bit and they seem to be Philippe and George Schmitt who had a postcard business in Rabat at this time. I could find no birth/death dates or, indeed, proof that they took every photo themselves so cannot prove it is PD enough for commons - Dumelow (talk) 07:51, 13 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 23:45, 10 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

Switched the one cite template to citation and standardised to "Frank Cass", cheers - Dumelow (talk) 16:25, 14 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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