Wikipedia:Featured article review/Scotland national football team/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 16:42, 25 September 2008 [1].

---

Scotland national football team

Review commentary

Notified: Kanaye, HisSpaceResearch, user: The Rambling Man, Matt Lewis, Matt Lunker, WP Scotland, WP Football and article talk page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domiy (talk • contribs) 05:37, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

After seeing this article as a Featured Article for the past few months, I can't help but to get a few things out of my mind. Some language and layout issues are at hand here, ones which I think have been generously ignored somehow. As much of a secondary fan of Scotland as I am, I must point out some of these things. There are numerous cases of POV, grammar and others! Its a shock seeing this as a Featured Article after thoroughly reading it. This also further arouses the possibility that it obviously hasn't been stable, a clear FA criteria!

• "with Archie Gemmill scoring a famous goal.". Dead straight POV from my experience. It may be brilliant, it may be well known and one of the best in the history of the sport (hypothetically), but famous is a clear POV issue. I've seen numerous articles that have been bashed to death over POV, and coincidentally enough it has been predominantly for the word 'famous'.

• The same goes for "Gemmill's yer mawfamous goal". I tried to find a definition of 'mawfamous' and had absolutely no luck. Again, strangely enough, when I typed it into google the only link that came up was the Scotland national football team, with a quote from that caption being shown in the preview. Its potential to say then that this is one of the only articles/pieces of writings on the entire internet that contains the word 'mawfamous'. On top of POV, its not even a word. Don't even get me started on 'yer'. ENGLISH PEOPLE, USE ENGLISH!

• Possible POV is also evident in "Scotland's fiercest rivals". While there may not be as much strictness on this (as it is somewhat true), the word 'fiercest' is still a blatant issue of POV. Also, the way it is worded sounds like Scotland have numerous rivals in football. A more appropriate wording would be something like "England are Scotland's traditional rivals" or something similar.

• "The encounters against England were particularly fierce and a fierce rivalry quickly developed." Again, not only POV but somewhat badly worded. The same word is used twice almost right after the first one. Trying to read it makes it sound confusing and again, a clear utterance of constant POV. You may be able to get away with some light POV words in some extreme cases, but using a potential POV within the same statement is pushing it further.

• "and were thrashed 7–0 by Uruguay" I've seen this pointed out like a firework in the sky numerous times before as well. Thrashed is not really predominant wording, although I must admit it does describe the context of the defeat well in this situation, it still can be challenged as non encyclopedic wording!

• "daunting encounter" can also be challenged on grounds of POV. Difficult, tense, tensional would be good to use, but daunting?

• "This joke ultimately led to the conception of the Unofficial Football World Championships". Joke is also somewhat not appropriate for an encyclopedia. Joke can mean many things, and it doesnt really strongly fit into the category of fans claiming a team to be unofficial champions. Better words are more appropriate for this statement methinks. Replace joke with anything else.

• "...beating England 2-1 at Wembley Stadium.[11] after the match Scotland fans infamously invaded the pitch, ripping up the turf and breaking a crossbar.[20]" You forgot a capital letter at the end of the sentence! It should be 'After'.

• Again, while such may sound suitable sometimes, I have seen a lot of articles being teared up for POV, again predominantly with the description of "... continued to play impressively". Come to think of it, thats clear POV to me.

• "They beat New Zealand 5–2, drawing with the USSR 2–2 and losing 4–1 to a magical Brazilian team which included Socrates , Zico , Eder and Falcao.[29]".

Are you serious? I dont know if this was in here when this article was promoted, but it surely wont pass now or maybe even ever! First of all, on the smaller of issues, it should be written in consistent prose. If they beat New Zealand, they wouldnt 'beating' or 'drawing' against USSR, they would 'draw' to USSR. So basically, It should read - "They beat New Zealand 5–2, drew with the USSR 2–2 and lost 4–1...".

Furthermore, a magical Brazilian side? Thats Clear POV without excuse! Brazil may be good, and their team may have been world beaters, but stating that they were a magical side in an encyclopedia is insane! If in any case it was accepted, I dont know how it got by the fact that there is an unnecessary space after each comma. It, should, be, listed, like, this -- not , like , this!

• "Scotland qualified for their fifth consecutive World Cup in 1990 by finishing second in their qualifying group, beating out France, but the results in the Finals in Italy were poor. Drawn in a group with Costa Rica, Sweden, and Brazil, the Scots inexplicably lost 1–0 to Costa Rica in a major upset. While they recovered to beat Sweden 2–1 in their second game, they lost to Brazil in their third match 1–0 and once again Scotland was out in the first round.". Not even a single reference within an entire paragraph explaining an entire tournament! Provide references to this stanza! You cannot explain the process of an entire tournament without a single reference!

• "Scotland made their UEFA European Championship debut at the 1992 European Championship.[32] Scotland qualified for the tournament by a narrow margin." Confusing prose. Using Scotland right after the first use is confusing, clear breach of the prose criteria. It can easily be written as '...made their UEFA European Championship debut at the 1992 European Championship, qualifying for the tournament by a narrow margin.[32]

• "Scotland failed to qualify for the FIFA World Cup in 1994 which was played in the United States finishing fourth in their qualifying group behind Italy, Switzerland, and Portugal with a record of 4 wins, 3 draws and 3 losses. This prompted the resignation of Andy Roxburgh, who had managed the team since 1986." REFERENCES! WHERE ARE THE REFERENCES!

• "The Scottish team have become famous for their travelling support". Considering its a statement based on the fans, this is a clear POV breach. Can just as easily use 'renowned' to make it sound more pro etc. Domiy (talk) 08:44, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions at WP:FAR to complete the notifications and post them back to here; as a sample, see Wikipedia:Featured article review/Bank of China (Hong Kong). Also, Jmorrison230582, your interruptions of the FAR declaration make it hard to read; refactoring might help. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:47, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I think this article needs semi-protection because it will always attract low-level vandalism, either good natured by Scotland fans or sometimes by England fans. I have rewritten both the intro and the section to state that it Archie Gemmill's goal is one of the best goals scored in the World Cup, for which there is several reliable sources in support. In relation to "yermaw", that was one of two edits last night that look like vandalism which have been reverted. I have rewritten the sentence re "traditional rivals" as you suggested. I have also rewritten two sentences re the 1977 match. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:49, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Image comments

The Image:Archie gemill1978.jpgdoes not have any FU rationale and I feel it fails WP:NFCC#8

The copyrighted Image:SFAShirtLogo.svg is used represent the team in preference to the free Image:Flag of Scotland.svg, as is used by FIFA and UEFA to represent the team, I am unconvinced that this use meets WP:NFCC#1 Fasach Nua (talk) 09:51, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

comment The infobox lists World and Euro Cup, surely for a team like Scotland the BHC would be of more improtance, it was the primary copmpetition for 70 years, and the other competitions have only been of interest for 60, this seems like recentism Fasach Nua (talk) 10:27, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments in reply to Fasach Nua: I have added a rationale to the Archie Gemmill goal and limited it to only his page. I think it passes point 8 for his article because it is by far the most significant moment in his career. In relation to the logo, this is consistent with all other national team articles. A flag of a nation doesn't necessarily represent the national team - indeed, in the context of Scotland, you could get some people arguing that the Union Flag is the primary flag of Scotland and should be used instead. For example, Flower of Scotland was only adopted as the team's official anthem in the 1990s. In relation to the point about the BHC, the infobox template limits the information to the world cup and the regional tournament (in this case the Euros). I don't think it is just recentism to suggest that the World and Euro tournaments are more important either, because the three tournaments ran concurrently for over 30 years and the BHC died because it didn't hold as much interest as the other tournaments. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 10:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The flag of Scotland is good enough for FIFA & UEFA and is an official emblem of the team, unlike the Union Flag, the issue is why is it good enough for FIFA/UEFA to represent the team but not good enough for Wikipedia, I sympathise with you over other soccer articles having logos, but WP:WAX really isnt a good argument for an FA. Fasach Nua (talk) 10:48, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I can see what you are saying there. Television broadcasts normally use a flag to represent a team in score captions rather than the logo of the national association (or federation). I also think, however, that there are weaknesses in using national flags. Some players who have very tenuous connections with a nation end up playing for that national football team (eg Tony Cascarino). The logo does more directly represent the team concerned. The Scotland team is selected, organised and operated by employees of the Scottish Football Association, not the Scottish Government or some other public body, and the same is true of every other national team. FIFA regularly take strong measures against Governments that interfere in the operations of national teams. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:20, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The flag is not just used by the Scottish government to represent Scotland, but also by FIFA and UEFA to represent the Scottish football team. If it is acceptable for FIFA and UEfA, why is it unacceptable here? Fasach Nua (talk) 12:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment to Fasach Nua We've been over this. This isnt why I nominated this article for review. Clearly, you have been proved wrong and diminished over this more times than anyone keeps count. Images of the flag are not sufficient in relation to the national sporting teams of that country. I'm not going to go on about this, I'm sure you've heard it all before. They are all relevant arguments. Not so much that it is OK to use copyrighted images, but clearly there is no other alternative that can symbolize the same information as the logos do. Take a look at the non-free content review page where you mentioned this, that should solve all your inquiries. You can't just go around WP stating things that have already been proved incapable and incorrect. Let the logo's go, once again, they are the only thing that symbolize the national football team. There are more important issues at hand here, this is one we can cross of the list. Domiy (talk) 11:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Support Featured article removal candidacy due to inappropriate use of images (criteria 3), I had hoped someone would try and justify why the standards of WP are different than either of those used by FIFA or UEFA, but alas not Fasach Nua (talk) 12:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Just because you didn't have it in mind does not mean that it is not worth discussing. I particularly would like to thank Fasach Nua for bringing this up. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Oh dont get the wrong idea. The majority of things are definately worth discussing. Thats why Fasach Nua has had so many discussions about replacing the logo's with national flags. He has raised discussions about it numerous times, and myself and others have been happy to expand on it. Please try to understand that a verdict has already been reached on this. The discussions have resulted in numerous debates which have ended badly for Fasach Nua. The larger poertion of Wikipedians clearly voiced the fact that national flags are not acceptable and shouldnt be used. Its almost considered an offense to bring up a discussion that has already been proven wrong. This logo issue has had discussions on so many pages its not even funny anymore. And any replies that Fasach Nua receives are clearly a waste of time as he doesnt even bother reading them. Tell me now that this is still worth a discussion Ottava Rima! Domiy (talk) 03:19, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Consensus changes, and its never a bad thing to always discuss. Don't think of a complaint as over, or a decision set in stone. At an FAR, nothing is a waste of time, unless it is just back and forth complaining about important points that would help people figure out how to make this page an FA again. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:35, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Further comments on the article:

• "Scotland have qualified for several major tournaments, but have never progressed beyond the first stage of a tournament." Again, using the same word twice so often is difficult to read and sounds too constant. I suggest ending this sentence at 'stage' or you could even replace tournament with 'such'.

• "The team have achieved some famous results". Again, 'famous' is POV in this context. Sometimes even stating notable or memorable is considered downright POV, but personally I dont think so. I wouldnt mind seeing 'notable' instead of famous.

• "again.[37]." - Unnecessary full stop after the reference number.

• "Some matches, particularly friendly games, are occasionally played at a venue belonging to a Scottish Premier League team." Mentioning such a subject and then not proving further detail is diminishing. Which team is it? Don't neglect some clear facts, especially if you have already mentioned them! Might as well expand on it and finish of the statement, a lot of users would want to know which venue it is and which team it is used by!

And my initial points still stand until further fixed up! Domiy (talk) 11:24, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe I have rewritten the article to address your concerns. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:39, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I was the nominator when this article passed FAC (good job I'm active in the Football WikiProject and saw the message there, as I was not notified of this FAR). I've barely looked at it since, but it does get a fair amount of drive-by editing. I'd imagine many of the points raised can be resolved by restoring parts of the promoted version. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
  • 1. (numbers refer to Domiy's bullet points above) In the body the text referring to the goal is reference in a manner which would justify using "famous" as a summary (summary, after all, is the purpose of the lead). Unless things have changed since I last visited FAC, references from the body do not need to be referenced a second time when the information appears in the lead.
  • 3. The reference used for this in the body is entitled "A history of fierce football rivalry"...
  • 4. Sentence from promoted version restored.
  • 6. "Tense" has a completely different meaning to "daunting", and would be unsuitable as a replacement. I'd disagree about it being POV. The context makes it clear that the opponents had just become world champions. Facing the world champions can cause the courage of a team to be affected. I could put "potentially daunting" I suppose.
  • 7. It was originally said in a joking manner. It was not until years later that the "Unofficial Football World Championship" used it as their inspiration.
  • 9. Reworded.
  • Most others fixed by Jmorrison. In almost all cases, the issues were not present in the promoted version, it is drive-by editing which has caused them.
  • Fasach Nua's objection over football association logos has been raised at several different venues in the past, without gaining much support (Wikipedia:Fair use review#These Logos is one example). The football association badge is the primary form of self-identification used by the team, being the emblem borne on their shirts etc. Thus provided WP:LOGO is being followed, I see no problem. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:43, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The use of the logos is still subject to WP:NFCC in addition to the logo guidelines. NFCC#1 states "...if one of acceptable quality is available; "acceptable quality" means a quality sufficient to serve the encyclopedic purpose", WP:NFCC#8 states "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic.". The issue is why is what is acceptable for organisations like FIFA and UEFA unacceptable for an organisation like Wikipedia, and how much does the use of this logo increase the readers understanding of the concept of a national football team. I have raised the issue at WP:FUR and with little support from editors, but no-one has justified the use of logos in these articles in terms of policy, but meerly attempted to shout down the topic on because they didnt like the idea of it and wouldn't tolerate a discussion. In my opinion the primary means of identification is the highly visible flag flown at every match as demanded by FIFA, and the blue shirts worn for a century, not some 10cmx10cm piece of embroidery that is hardly visible from a distance, Italy are called the "Azuri", not the red white and blues, Northern Ireland are "the green and white army", not the gold cross, The Republic of Ireland are "the boys in green" not the tricolours, France are called "Les Bleus", ,not the chickens, Belgium are the "Diables Rouges" not the belgian flags, Spain are called the "La Furia Roja", not the bulls, The netherlands are "Oranje" not the lions, it is clear from the fans point of view that the colour of the kit seems to be the primary means of identification, not whatever the current incarnation of the badgge is. Fasach Nua (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

England are called the Three Lions though. And in some of the cases you mention the flag doesn't represent any better than the logo, most obviously with Italy - green, white & red tricolour, but called the Blues (Azzurri). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 19:50, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Indeed England and Wales are the two exceptions, but the badge is definietly the minority view as the primary means of identification. As for "the flag doesn't represent any better than the logo", given the choice of two equal options, I would choose the free alternative per WP:NFCC#1 Fasach Nua (talk) 19:55, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The likely outcome here is that we will agree to disagree. Nicknames are just that, not the primary means of identification. The nickname "Tartan Army" refers to the fans more than the team. The Scotland team use the FA crest to identify themselves, just look at their website, or try the Google Images test. Of course there's always the fact that if removed from the infobox, the crest could quite justifiably pop up again when it is discussed in the section about the colours and crest. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:02, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Final comments

The article looks and sounds MUCH better now. Please note that even though reliable news stories may call something 'famous', its still no excuse to use it in an encyclopedia. Reliable sources gain attention for their creative, if not biased language, all the time. Its how they earn recognition. A lot of reliable sites will call a goal or a team famous, but it is still POV even with references. You should search for alternatives as much as possible, although it's not much of a problem now as I see such has already been done. 'Famous' is only in there a couple of times on my estimated count, thats good to know. Please note that it can give away POV so you should be wary of it.

Other than that, I like the way it is written now. Well done. If possible however, I would change one last thing. In the final paragraph of the lead section, you start the sentence and paragraph with 'England'. This can give away the wrong idea, most sentences, especially in the lead, should restrain from subjecting another article. I would start the sentence with 'Scotland' first and then go from there to stating the rivalry. This would be much better and appropriate.

If that's done, then I will have no more objections. Please also note that FA criteria requires the article to be stable. I've seen a lot of things being changed and added even before this review was bought up. If your worried about vandalism, then I suggest you request protection for some time. Otherwise, there are many bots you can use to restore previous versions in case of vandalism. Well done again btw, hope the Croatian team makes it to FA soon :) Domiy (talk) 23:31, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

• Not yet. Some citations are not fully formatted, missing publishers or accessdates. There's still a citation needed tag. There are problems with WP:MOSDATE#Precise language, example: "The following players have been selected to play for Scotland in the last calendar year."
• Further, the review should not be closed until image issues are addressed. This statement to Fasach Nua:

• Clearly, you have been proved wrong and diminished over this more times than anyone keeps count.

• is neither correct, helpful, nor civil. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:18, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough about some image issues which were raised, they have been resolved now. The picture of Archie Gemmill has been replaced as have some other issues been fixed. Fasach Nua comments may sound uncivil but you have no idea how unfair he has been in some reviews. He has clearly been proven wrong by numerous users who disagree fully with this logo argument!. Domiy (talk) 05:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

He has also been proven right and backed up by other image reviewers many times; the uncivil commentary directed at one reviewer should stop. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:06, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

He has NOT been proven right. I admit that some small amount of people did agree with his argument, but the larger portion of users clearly went against it based on the countless arguments that national flags of the country are not sufficient to represent the national sporting team of a country. Look at the provided links and you will see how, as per some Wikipedia rights and responsibilites etc, it is innapropriate to use the flags. Domiy (talk) 04:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Domiy, I believe your comment may be viewed as disrespectful. Please try to understand that. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Also note Fasach Nua that FIFA and UEFA very rarely use national flags to represent the football teams. This is commonly only seen on foreign broadcasting channels which have little to do with FIFA or UEFA. But the official programs of the governing football bodies will most times just use the abbreviations such as 'CRO', 'SCO', 'ITA', 'SER', 'GER' and etc. Also, the official websites represent the nations with the logo's as well, so I would think more thoroughly on the situation before you go around proclaiming that "the national flags are good enough for FIFA and UEFA". Domiy (talk) 04:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

"rarely" is a very subjective term, it is a FIFA regulation that any international soccer international that it recognises must have the flags of the nations involved flown from the stadium. In my opinion every international is not rare. I had not made any such proclomation as you have stated, but meerly echoed the position of FIFA. Fasach Nua (talk) 10:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Fasach Nua - you could have easily bought this up initially when you argue this logo point. Your main problem is that you are not being specific enough. First of all, provide a link to the FIFA regulation which ensures that national flags are displayed from the stadium. Without a source, your very weak argument is even weaker (believe it or not). Secondly, this isn't even a sufficient reason. Every sport has a similar rule. Its all about national distinction. The flags above the stadium are never seen and they are merely a case to recognise the national stadium which the team plays at. This regulation (if it even exists) most likely aroused from the times of soome sanctioned national teams playing seperately when they were still a part of another state (like Croatia's case with Yugoslavia). lThis has nothing to do with national flags vs logos. The bottom line is that FIFA and UEFA formally recognise and represent national teams with their respective logos. If national flags were "good enough for FIFA and UEFA" then why did they even create the logos in the first place huh? Its blatantly obvious for so many more reasons that national flags are simply not a good enough replacement, again based on the fact that national logos were created for a reason!!! Domiy (talk) 05:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

The regulation is at [2] article 22 & 33, I'm sure there is a better reference, but I dont have time to look for it. I dont know why they created logos, I think two of the first four nations to play association football, Ireland & Wales didnt have flags at the time, indeed 120 years ago the union flag was used for soccer internationals. Fasach Nua (talk) 07:55, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

120 years ago? EXACTLY! FIFA and UEFA weren't in existence 120 years ago, so this has nothing to do with them. You yourself have just said that you do not know why the logos were created, clearly proving you haven't sufficient knowledge on the topic/issue and the denominations within it to prolong or even discuss such an argument at this level and rate. I'll tell you why logos were created. They were created to formally represent the national teams of the sport. At any FIFA or UEFA press conference, the national associations or teams themselves will be represented formally with the logos. If the national flags were "good enough for them" then they would also make it easier for everyone else and simply just use the nations flag instead. However, the flags are clearly not good enough for them as they continue to use the logo instead. Wikipedia aims to deliver a thorough encyclopedia with as much realistic and similar information as possible. Using the national flags would be blatantly a violation of such Wikipedia objectives. Also, I'm sure Wikipedia has personal regulations which ensure the articles do not diminish the people or subjects. Believe it or not, some players wouldn't want to be represented by a flag. There have been many cases where players have said they are happy to play for a national team for different reasons rather than them being from that nation themselves. For example, a lot of players in the Croatian team are from Bosnia or Germany. They may still want to be considered Bosnians or Germans but maintain performances in Croatia's national team because it is easier/more aspiring etc. This is especially specific in a case that some Serbian players have played for Croatia and vice-versa. Representing a national team with their nation's flag is not specific enough and can clearly cause personal issues which goes against Wikipedia's common objectives! Domiy (talk) 09:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Teams are represented by many things anthems, shirts, logos, and flags. The issue is, "is the use of the FIFA sanctioned emblem for a team sufficient for encylopedic purposes per WP:NFCC?", and I think it is.

I was unaware that wikpedia had aims beyond that of supporting the aims of the wikimedia foundation, to which the use of non-free content is the antithesis. If there is is any suplimentry material that this is in conflict with, then perhaps you could post a link to it, however, I see no issues surrounding "personal regulations", indeed flags are used quite widely on soccer articles, to indicate match scores and club articles nationality. Fasach Nua (talk) 09:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Listen to your terminology. Yes, national flags are used in soccer articles such as news stories. I have no doubt that you have formed the basis of this image and logo argument simply by watching too much TV as the expression goes. Of course, its not exactly TV that you have gotten too much of, its the simple media tendency. Yes, some statistic and other minor information sites do use national flags because it is simply easier. But on a formal encyclopedia like WP, we must go by the actual standards of displaying information in a specific manner. You yourself opposed the Croatia national football team FA for a second time on the grounds of 'too confusing' because of your other bizarre argument. I knew you were solely just being deliberately annoying, but that oppose comment has come back to bite you now. You said that you thought the article was too confusing as there was no reference to the former national teams being the same as the current national teams. OK, lets call that confusion. What should we then call representing an article subject with a different image which is only concisely related? By this of course I mean using the national flag to represent the national football team. People will look at the lead/main image and immediately arouse confusion - Where did all the logos go? I thought national teams were represented with logos! What does this flag have to do with the national sporting team? Am I on the right article? Why are they representing Croatia's football team with Croatia's national flag? are all questions that can and most likely will arouse. So I'm sorry Fasach Nua, since you were able to oppose something on the grounds of confusion, then so am I. Hence, I am opposing your argument on logo removal due to the obvious confusion it will cause. After all, in specific terms of WP, national flags actually have very little to do with national football teams. They are run by a different association (the nation is run by a government or president, whereas the national teams are run by FIFA and UEFA). On top of that, they are not the nation themselves but rather the team representing that nation in a sport. As per Wikipedia:BLP, personal issues are clearly present. If logos were created to represent national associations of the sport, then it is still very sufficient to use them on the national team page. As I said, flags are used to represent a nation that abides by the law of that country. For example, the flag of Croatia represents the nation of Croatia as the nation of Croatia abides and it governed by Croatian laws. Therefore it is sufficient that the football team of Croatia is governed by the laws and organization of the Croatian football federation, hence the display of logos. I'd hate to say this, but it seems that every argument you bring forward is just as easily shut down as the next one. I think you should build a bridge and get over this issue which is clearly wrong. Domiy (talk) 10:52, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

When I say articles, I mean Wikipedia article, flags are used here, and I don’t see how this is a violation of Wikipedia:BLP. As for your argument about the flag being that of the state, it is true of most teams use the same flag as the state, however if you consider Northern Ireland, the flag used by the team, it is not the flag of the state, so the national FAs are free to choose the flag themselves, and don’t have to use that of the state, it is simply the flag most FAs choose to use. Fasach Nua (talk) 18:22, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

From an outsider's point of view, I fully understand that we should use free content whenever possible. If using a flag is a better option, then that's what should be done. A logo is not worth losing a featured article over. At the same time, I think it's ironic that Manchester United is being used as an example when that page has three non-free logos on it. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:33, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thats what I noticed immediately! Its another thing to note about you Fasach Nua. You seem to only arouse this logo argument on pages that you solely choose...and it seems to be ones you have personal issues with. Other than that, please note that club articles differ significantly from national team articles. The whole presentation of the page is different, and relevancy of information is greatly impacted. Lets stick to national team pages. You say you dont think that it violates BLP? I just gave you a perfect example which you may not have really gotten. Croatia and Serbia used to be a part of Yugoslavia. They fought a difficult war which is still remembered today. Without getting too much into history, the two nations have their differences at the very least. However, some players have played for the opposite national team. It comes down to a variety of factors in the end. So a Croatian player may play for Serbia for whatever footballing reason, but rest assured he would still want to be called Croatian. Likewise, Eduardo da silva was born in Brazil but plays for Croatia. I'm sure he still likes to be considered a Brazilian, he just plays for Croatia because he spent his teen years there. It keeps going, I can pull examples from all over the globe. It stands heavily that it violates BLP. Some players take this very seriously when it comes to nationalities. Using flags is just asking for more personal issues on what is supposed to be a non-biased and accurate encyclopedia! Assuming every player is Croatian and would want to be called Croatian is clearly a biased action. Same goes for all other national teams. Domiy (talk) 03:57, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Prose Comments:

I've noticed that the paragraph in the lead section still starts with 'England'. This is a really bad idea, it even confuses me sometimes no matter how many times I read it. A lead section paragraph starting with a different national team subject is VERY BAD! Start this paragraph differently! Domiy (talk) 05:26, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Oppose removal, Support keeping this aricle! My issues have been fixed up now, and I would hate to be responible for an actually worthy article to be removed from FA because of some other unfair and NA arguments! I would just quickly reccomend filling in the citation tag required and fixing up the references very quickly. Other than that, I personally see no other issues. (how does it feel to see that an article is being treated in a 'possibly invisible' biased manner now? Taste of your own medicine is good for you.) Domiy (talk) 04:20, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I formatted the references myself. There are actually two cite tags, including one for their nickname in the infobox. Giants2008 (17-14) 21:27, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Struck citation formatting, it looks good. I still see some WP:MOSDATE#Precise language needs; perhaps another runthrough to check that all statements avoid words like "Current" and state timeframes or dates. For example, I saw something about a record holder ... as of when? Also, image licensing still needs sorting; we may need to ask other image people to look in here since the civility issues persist. And the remaining citation needed tags. Also, I'm not sure that blockquote is done correctly; pls review WP:MOS on that (I think we're supposed to avoid pull quotes). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:35, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

I've had a run through checking for "currently"s and the like. For the record-holders, the closest currently active players are so far behind the records that there is little danger of the information becoming outdated in the next few years. More image people taking a look would be useful. I don't regard it as an issue (per my comment above), but I'd like to get a range of opinions (preferably without an overbearing adversarial tone). Oldelpaso (talk) 16:56, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I've just noticed that guidelines at WP:NONFREE explicitly cite team and corporate logos as acceptable use. Oldelpaso (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

A guideline is just that, a guideline, the underlying policy is what is important. Most team logos do not have a free alternative to represent them, this would apply to nearly all subnational sports teams, which would constitue ~99% of the teams wikipedia has articles for. However unlike subnational teams, national teams do have alternative free emblems! Fasach Nua (talk) 13:28, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

The logo is principally that of the FA not the team. Interestinly in most sports teams articles the organisation and team are treated as one entity, however national FAs have a responsibility beyond running a national team, and it is difficult to treat the two in one article. Fasach Nua (talk) 15:00, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

national FAs have a responsibility beyond running a national team Such as? I presume you mean countries where the FA also runs the league. This does not apply in Scotland. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 15:54, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Further to my comment above, the Scottish Football Association has a logo which is specific to the team, which is different from the logo of the organisation itself. Therefore it is clear that the logo shown on the article specifically represents the Scotland national football team and nothing else. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:55, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Clearly I don't see the difference between this article and the Croatia national football team. Rightfully, if the latter article has failed 3 times now, this one should also rightfully have failed or be removed right now due to the fact that it has similar or even worse issues than Croatia. It uses similar references and was using a clearly copyrighted image. Really, until these two articles are at the same rating level, I won't stop thinking that WP or in particular this review project is largely based on preference which leads to biased comments. Domiy (talk) 10:57, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

FARC commentary

Suggested FA criteria concerns are prose (1a), layout (2), POV (1d), and images (3). Marskell (talk) 10:48, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Summary of the image issue (criteria 3)

The Scotland team can be represented in a number of ways including, blue shirts, Saltire, and corporate logo. The logo is copyrighted, however it is the primary symbol used by Scottish FA to represent the team and it is the one symbol which has an exclusivity of relationship with the team, although it also used for the womens’ and U21 squads. The Saltire is a generic symbol of Scotland, but is the primary symbol used by FIFA and UEFA to identify the team, and is freely licensed.

The requirement of the WP:NFCC is to use a free image that is "acceptable for encyclopaedic purposes" in preference to copyrighted image, if possible. Fasach Nua (talk) 15:25, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

FIFA and UEFA both have their own copyrighted logos displayed on their page, and on other articles. They can easily also be replaced with the flags of the countries which founded them or currently own them. Even you must agree that the amount of confusion that would cause is almost dangerous. We're trying to make an encyclopedia here! Please note that as per WP:BLP and others, the use of anything else besides the actual logo of the team is of great confusion and can arouse large personal issues. Some players intend to play for a national team simply based on aspirations or standards of ability, so in technicality, a foreigner (there are many of them) is still the nationality of his original birthplace. Do we really want to assume biased responsibility and represent these players as a nationality that that they may not be? Furthermore, Saltire or national flags don't convey the same information as the logo. They are not "acceptable" replacements and therefore this copyrighted logo, under a fair use rationale etc, is rightfully the only thing that can be displayed on the page. If it was removed, then the article would be excluding a major information factor which is part of the FA criteria. The same goes for all other national team pages. And just on one last quick note, has anyone noticed 'Today's Featured Article'? The Calgary Flames also use a copyrighted logo on their article page. Same case goes for them. By your standards Fasach Nua, this is also easily replaceable. But by appropriate standards, no other image can convey the same information! Domiy (talk) 22:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Who uses the national flags of the founding nations of FIFA and UEFA to represent them? I have never seen this done before!

I really dont accpet your WP:BLP argument in the slightest, if a player makes the choice to play for a team and governing body represent that team with an emblem, then I see no problem what so ever in representing this team with the emblem used by the governing body.

The removal of the logo does cost information, the question is, is this information significant, and I dont feel that it is.

You raise an interesting point regarding the Calgary flames, what would you replace their logo with? Fasach Nua (talk) 11:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Well believe it or not, your replacing logos with flags argument is just as extreme and inappropriate! I don't have as much as an issue with you over image copyright, I just go by the basic terms and regulations. I said the Calgary flames could be replaced with something by your standards. Of course, please note that your standards are viewed as extremely inappropriate. Using flags to convey the same info as logos doesn't work. It's so extreme that you may as well pull it on any copyrighted logo page on WP. Speaking from your major copyright issue point of view, the Calgary flames logo could be replaced with a picture of a burning fire. It is a flame, and it burns rapidly as a sign of the team's spirit and strength. That's perfectly acceptable so as per the image copyright issues, the logo should be replaced on this FA. Please note that this is speaking from your conveyed perspective. But from the perspective of a normal and fair user, it is definitely not appropriate to use a burning flame. Same goes for using flags over national logos. The information loss is significant. The logo's symbolise the specific national team including the country it represents, the sport it represents it in, and on top of all, the association it is governed by. Only one of those are present in the use of national flags, which is the basic one of conveying which country the team represents. I dont see why national pages need to lose the immediate information of what sport they compete in and what association they come from just because you have majorly extreme copyright concerns. Domiy (talk) 11:58, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

I dont agree with the opinions you have assigned to me, and I would prefer it if I was given the courtesy of being allowed to state my own opinions, rather than having them stated for me. Fasach Nua (talk) 12:05, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

For what its worth, I do apologize. I knew immediately that my points came across harsh and somewhat extreme myself. Please note that in some peoples perspective, your points do actually sound this crazy, whether you intend it or not. But overall, I'm sure we can both come to an agreement. I'm sure you can see now that the logo really does symbolise a significant amount of specific information that would be greatly lost if it was replaced with something so simple as the national flag. Again, the fact that it is a football team, representing the nation, and governed by a particular association is all evident in the logo. The image only conveys one of these pieces of information to a much lesser extent when you think about the already established style on WP. I would want nothing more than for us to reach an agreement on this so every FA or FAR doesn't turn into a massive circling debate. Domiy (talk) 12:44, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Altered comments - further review needed Supporting removal! - I just finished adding major fixups to the Croatia team article as per opposing suggestions from its last FAC. My main concern are the references. I now agree, publisher names should be listed in full. This included FIFA, UEFA, BBC etc. The full domain names should be listed just as this article has done. Do this consistently throughout the references. RSSSF etc shouldn't be seen! And I'm somewhat concerned at the references reliability. Why exactly is The Scotsman reliable? Similarly, Planet World Cup is NOT reliable at all. Also, current refs 59 and 61 are dead links! What makes 'Hampden Scotland's National Stadium' a reliable source anyway? Some sources lack author or even publisher information, I have opened a few references and already seen author names listed on the page, yet it is not given in the references. Some data is in the wrong field as well. Chick Young is the author of the page, the publisher is BBC. This has to be filled out properly. It goes on like this. References need a major fixup to reach good standards!

• "From 1872 to 1954 and 1954 to 1958 the Scotland national team was appointed by a selection committee. Andy Beattie was manager for six matches in 1954 when Scotland competed at their first World Cup. After the tournament the selection committee resumed their duties, continuing until the appointment of Matt Busby in 1958." -- Needs to be sourced.

• Supporter section is very brief. A lot if good info is mentioned but not expanded upon. This section is way too short considering the facts available!

• Nothing about the Supporters and Stadium info in the lead section. These seem to be very important for national team pages, especially in Scotland's case. The lead should be expanded to include such info. Domiy (talk) 06:29, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
  • Sources: The Scotsman is a national newspaper at the quality end of the market. Planet world cup refs replaced with RSSSF. Calling Hampden the national stadium is not in the least controversial, and I don't see that using Hampden's official website as a source for ought to be a problem. In any case I've replaced it with a ref from the Scottish tourist board. Domain names do not need to be listed in full, this appears nowhere in WP:CITE. These leaves adding author info for the occasional ref, a minor issue which I believe is nice to have but not mandatory provided the specific article can be found easily.
  • Citation for managers - added (and to answer the next question, the author is someone who has written several books on Scottish football history).
  • The supporters section was slightly longer, but concerns about OR were raised, which leaves it between the devil and the deep blue sea. I certainly wouldn't want to tip the balance between giving an good overview and going into the realms of trivia. Tartan Army exists as an article, and as a summary style section I don't think anything of real importance is missing. Do you have any examples of what you think is missing?
  • Lead edited. Oldelpaso (talk) 08:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad you were able to come to fix this up so quickly, but your argument on author information is a zilch in my opinion. Author info is pretty much mandatory when available. It helps the readers/researchers identify who's work it is, which can be of extreme convenience in some cases. Overall, despite how simple or easy to find the article may be, author information is still needed to acknowledge the creator of your source and for some other reasons. Also, to ensure that the article does meet top standards, I think you should get into listing the full domain name. BBC, FIFA, UEFA etc is common, but it would be very much more specific and professional to list the full names. I did it on my national team article and it really does expand the references to more specific acknowledgment. A quick tip for this is to paste the entire article in Microsoft Word and use the 'Replace' tool to fill in such information. If not that, then ensure that the sources from FIFA.com and UEFA.com actually have the '.com' at the end of the publisher field. Some references simply state the publishers as FIFA or UEFA, which is not the exact specific case. This can give the idea or claim that the info is actually from the official board of the governing bodies, which is rarely the case. These websites still have their own authors which deliver news stories so it has to be properly filled out. Fill in the '.com' at the end!.....And just one last quick thing, have you tried putting that long quote in the last section in an actual quote box? I think it may look better. Domiy (talk) 09:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that Domiy's understanding of reliable sources is grounded in WP:V; questioning The Scotsman as a reliable source is surprising. Also, it is unusual to spell out something as common as BBC in citations (I have asked on FACs for acronyms of sports terms to be defined on first occurrence in the article text for those not familiar with the jargon). I have glanced at the citations several times (haven't examined each one in detail), and I believe they're fine in terms of reliability. If Domiy has concerns about a cited statement, perhaps he will post here each statement he challenges and the source; I'll be glad to check them all. A read of Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches may be helpful. Yes, authors are needed and citations are incomplete: see this sample edit. I think that once the image issue is resolved and citations are completed, this should be close to a Keep. If agreement can't be reached on the image, perhaps you all will consult Elcobbola (talk · contribs), but I find he often agrees with Fasach Nua. Also, Domiy, I don't find it helpful to hold this article to the standard of an article that hasn't passed FAC twice because of sourcing and image issues, particularly when the citations on that article are not yet formatted correctly (see WP:ITALICS among others). Finally, I have fixed the blockquote at the end of the article that I have inquired about several times in the FAC; pls see Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Quotations. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:22, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

All right, I went ahead and looked at two sections, to get ahead of the game here. Yes, there are problems in the sourcing and citatons: there are dead links, missing citations on direct quotes, I found a non-reliable source, there are incorrect links (I changed one, one I can't find), a press release was misidentified, incorrect dates, incorrect WP:ITALICS on newspapers and periodicals, and missing date and author info. This was in only two sections.

As an example of a problem with reliable sources:

• Gallacher holds the record for goals scored in one match; he scored five goals in a 7–3 defeat of Northern Ireland in February 1929.

is cited to http://www.londonhearts.com/scotland/misc/hattricksbydate.html, a fan club hobby site, not a reliable source for identifying a record holder. So, my apologies to Domiy, who as partly right (although The Scotsman is a reliable source); at any rate, Domiy, it's not necessary to holler your declaration each time you change it at FAR. FAR is a deliberative process, with the goal that articles will be improved, so hollering to have an article removed isn't necessary. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:21, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The claim re Gallacher scoring five goals against Northern Ireland should perhaps be removed, because the SFA states that Gallacher scored four goals. It credits the goal scored in the 51st minute to Alex James.[3] Jmorrison230582 (talk) 06:31, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Deadlinks should be sorted now. That quote added very little at all, being more relevant to Smith than the national team, so I removed it. I've also removed the contradicted Gallacher "record". Oldelpaso (talk) 09:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm just enforcing the need for author info. It seems that the article editors have gained a personal idea that author name is not needed if it is a common or already known article. Rubbish! First of all, such can never be assumed. Secondly, author information is part of the reference template which helps identify the creator of the source. I'm just saying that the author information should be included where possible and all other citation issues be fixed up. Thats all! Lets not get into flaming debates again. I still maintain that article comments are indeed biased at times, whether it be for one reason or another. Thats why I intend to crack down on articles which passed FAC a long time ago (when it was very, VERY lenient). This is one of many. So, until the present issues are addressed, I'll be making sure this article gets the same treatment as mine did. Specifically, I had some reliable sources challenged as 'unreliable' as well. And the idea of spelling out abbreviations in full came from FAC anyway! I was told to get rid of things like BBC, UEFA, FIFA etc and put the full domain name. Despite how uncommon this is, I was cracked heavily and asked to do it like such. I personally do feel its much better this way now anyway. Domiy (talk) 06:41, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Interjection; I reviewed those FACs, and I cannot locate where you were told to spell out common, widely known acronyms like BBC in the citations. If I missed that, please point it out on my talk page. Spelling out jargon acronyms (sports acronyms not known to all readers) is a separate matter. I have never seen someone ask for CNN or BBC to be spelled out; if they did, I'd ignore it unless there was strong consensus in favor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Once again, please stop hollering. See WP:TALK regarding the excess markup in your posts; bolding unnecessarily at FAC and FAR just makes it harder for the person closing the nomination to sort bolded declarations. This article will be judged on its merits, not against another FAC. Work is progressing. Yes, when authors and publication dates are available, they should be included. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The toolbox shows one iffy link and one article that is a dab link. Pls check. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Fixed the dab link myself. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

There are still issues in the sourcing; for example, I just found all of this on a quick glance. These are samples only; please check them all. What makes keep-the-faith.net a reliable source? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:49, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Keep the Faith isn't a reliable source; it is a Celtic fan site. I have replaced the reference to the results with a link to the RSSSF page on the 1954 World Cup. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 14:55, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Can we get an update here? How do people feel about it now? Marskell (talk) 11:05, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Updated comments - still a few issues I think diminish the article.

• First of all, the abbreviations issue is yet to be resolved. Sandy asked for evidence and I gave him evidence in which another user formally declared that abbreviations such as 'FIFA', 'UEFA', 'BBC' etc need to be spelled out in full. I'm sure Sandy can back this up (look on his talk page). Similarly, the links from FIFA.com and UEFA.com still only list the publisher as 'FIFA' or 'UEFA'. That '.com' at the end makes a big difference. If you merely list the name of the governing football bodies as the publishers, then this can be interpreted very badly. Somebody can easily think that the source is like an official statement or release by the governing associations themselves; this is hardly the case. These domains have their own authors who merely publish stories for them, they are not representing the view or the decisions by the associations of FIFA or UEFA themselves (unless specifically stated, in which case it is still a source from a published story, therefore you must include the '.com' at the end to acknowledge such and avoid confusion).

• Why doesn't this article have a list of top scorers and top cap winners? I know this is almost always slightly restated in the 'Records' section of team pages, but a comprehensive list of cap winners and goalscorers is really needed, otherwise the article would clearly be neglecting major facts/information, which is against the criteria.

• I was never sure about the layout/order of this article. The Supporters section is least important as it has very little to do with the actual national team, but alas it is always still worth mentioning. However, it appears before the actual player or manager list. I think you should really reconsider the order of sections here. And the Supporters image of the Tartan Army kind of clashes with the other section and really messes up the distinct headings. Perhaps you could consider cropping the photo or even displaying it in a smaller size if this is acceptable (I don't do image issues on Wikipedia).

• Current ref 76 says "Cardiff City is a Welsh club that plays in the English Football League.". I have one question...Is this necessary? When identifying club nationalities, you should go by the country it actually participates in. Cardiff may be in Wales, but their team plays in England. Therefore, the players who play for Cardiff city play in the English Premiere League, not the Welsh league. Yet you have displayed the Welsh flag. I understand what you are trying to achieve with this ref/footnote, but it could be done better. I think you should put the English flag next to Cardiff City and then have the footnote saying that they are actually a club based in/from Wales, but play in England instead. This avoids confusion. Domiy (talk) 22:07, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

• Update, everything I have raised has been addressed. I don't know football (soccer), so without opining on content, everything looks to be in order. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:01, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

With the greatest deal of respect Sandy, please don't risk another flaming war of tension. You have every right to state that the article looks fine; from the majority of perspectives that is actually the case. However, I believe my issues need at least to be discussed or fixed up before any further action is taken. No pressure, just a swift reminder to you :-)Domiy (talk) 01:25, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

ho hum. Please read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote, which is Marskell's job anyway, and he does it quite well. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:44, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I am going to keep this now. First, because it seems quite clean and well sourced and second to bring an end to the trolling. I would have liked to have had more opinions from those knowledgeable about football, but I don't see how anyone can put up with this verbiage. Marskell (talk) 16:34, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

Not yet! I have provided evidence which recommends/requires that abbreviations be spelled out in full. Please do not let another clear problem pass blindly before your eyes. Until this is at the very least discussed, this FARC cannot be closed. National football team pages on WP are consistently very bad quality. Hats off to this page as it is by far the best of such on WP, however, it lacks the most basic information which every other article has; a list/table of top scorers and appearances. This is amongst the most important things on football articles. You have asked for football related opinions and you have received them, if they seem extreme to you then that's because you don't know about football yourself. The layout issues can probably be passed easily, but the remaining points are extremely vital. If this closes early then I will be prompt to simply nominate it again due to outstanding problems. Domiy (talk) 00:10, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think having a large number of lists in an article is a good thing; Domiy, please read WP:EMBED for more details on that. It doesn't mean that there shouldn't be lists in articles, but diligence is required. Having 10 or more lists instead of prose is not that appealing to the reader (something to note for the Croatia article). There are still a few unformatted references, but overall I'm leaning keep on this one. I can always work on this myself if need be. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:41, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

As noted above by Marskell, Raul654's delegate at FAR, this FAR is closed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:45, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.