Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/30 Rock (season 3)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 16:02, 31 October 2009 [1].

30 Rock (season 3)[edit]

Nominator(s): Staxringold talkcontribs 19:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

After some heavy re-working it finally matches the proper style of other featured TV season lists, in particular the other two FL 30 Rock seasons. Have reworked this list to save the Featured Topic from removal. Staxringold talkcontribs 19:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • 1. The image in the cast section isn't beneficial. An image of the whole cast would be better if not then none. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2. Some episodes summaries are one or two lines. Please expand to at least three to four.--Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 16:54, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

Resolved comments from Rambo's Revenge (talk · contribs)
  • Did it simulcast anywhere? Canada is quite often good for that. I know nothing of the show, but judging from this, it looks like it was quite popular in Aus. Could you find anything like that for the Reception section? Other DVD region releases give a bit more world perspective. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • This will annoy you. Most of those figure references have gone dead, and according to the tool it happened today! That includes your general reference. Hopefully, archive.org might have them. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd like to see more criticism in the Reception section to give a more neutral POV
  • Mkay. I tried to get a broad scope, but I'll post one or two of the very negative critics from Metacritic. Staxringold talkcontribs 21:25, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the plot summaries are a bit short. For example episode 14 is less than half a line!
  • Yeah, sorry, I told Diaa I'd do this and never got around it (got sucked into other projects). On it! Staxringold talkcontribs 21:25, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As Diaa mentions, a DVD release information table would also be nice
  • It's been argued in the past as okay. It is basically an Australian equivalent of Amazon. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The black text on dark blue background is difficult to read in the infobox
  • In the references the date format needs consistency per MoS
  • For those PDF refs, it is usual to have |format=PDF

Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:09, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More comments
  • Shouldn't be "Eastern Standard Time", because the April episodes would have aired in Eastern Daylight Time. Suggest just puitting Eastern Time.
  • "11:30", is that p.m. or a.m., also put the time zone or just (local time).
  • I think "Season 3" is usually written out season three, there are a couple of these and some will keep the capital "S" as they start sentences. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done.
    • Stax, are you keeping track of these comments? Dabomb87 (talk) 02:16, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yep, I'll get to them (lots of real world stuff coming up, yay writing a thesis and applying to law school). Right now my primary concern is finding replacement refs for the now dead NBC Universal Media Village. The old stories don't seem to be on the new site, and archive.org doesn't have that site archived. Gimme a bit. Staxringold talkcontribs 02:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Round 2 (still opposing on 1c and copyvio)

  • Okay I'm a bit concerned about that edit. Ref 11 says nothing about Moroney being "limelight-craving" and Girard being "playful" it doesn't even mention the characters names. Ditto with James "Toofer" Spurlock later on.
  • Ref 5 dead
  • Ref 19 seems to go to the wrong place
  • Ref 20 doesn't mention 30 Rock.
  • Ref 21 doesn't mention "wise-cracking, trucker hat-wearing, repulsive staff writer Frank Rossitano"
  • There must be a better ref than 22, which is talking about a show that hasn't even existed yet.
  • Ref 24 seems to go to the wrong place
  • I'm not as worried about the recurring characters references not mentioning there character names (excluding Leo Spaceman), but it would be nice if possible.
  • Hayek's does, Alda's 2nd one mentions his first name, but I'll dig around a bit. Staxringold talkcontribs 18:20, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ep 11 copyvio of IGN

Rambo's Revenge (talk) 17:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Final round (opposing on 1. Prose)

  • Ep.1: Shouldn't have to read GE
  • Ep.4: "there is more to Gavin than meets the eye" - this isn't a teaser, as an encyclopdia explain what is strange
  • Ep.5: "shocks Jack with his announcement of who the new CEO of GE actually is" - I don't know who the new GE is, but presumably it is relevant to the show so say so, i.e. along the lines of Jack was shocked when he discovered Joe Bloggs had been appointed as the new CEO ..., get my drift?
  • Ep.9 "invites Liz for support" invites to what?
  • Ep.10/12/17/19 you don't italicise TGS here, but you do elsewhere. Be consistent
  • Ep.15 "Liz tries to bring his to his attention." typo
  • Ep.15 "Tracy's contract but hits a snag when Tracy realize..." repetition of Tracy makes for an odd read
  • Problem is if I said he it'd be unclear if it referred to Jack. So I made the first one Tracy Jordan. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:39, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ep.16 you usually follow the characters name with (actor), but you don't for Dennis here. Is there a reason for this?
  • Ep.18 "However following a mix-up the" think it should be However, ... , the blah blah blah
  • Ep.19 "Jack goes shopping for an engagement ring with Liz for Elisa." awkward, goes shopping with Liz for an engagement ...
  • Ep.19 I had to look up what an EMT was. Additionally, if you spell it out you don't need to repeat emergency
  • Ep.20 "Tracy says feels that since" huh
  • Ep.21 "introduces supposed illegitimate" missing word?
  • Ep.22 "but soon discover Milton" discovers?

This all stuck out in my first read through, and I'm pretty bad at prose. I strongly recommend you get a copyeditor. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 10:21, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning support. I'm now in a similar boat to Goodraise, I have looked through this list fairly thoroughly and all my issues have been addressed, but I would be much more comfortable if an external copyediter/reviewer (who is much more prose competent than I) giving this a look. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 21:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ottava for giving the prose a look, I'm much more comfortable in fully supporting now. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 07:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That page is not a true dab, actually. It describes jury duty AND dabs to Jury Duty movies. Staxringold talkcontribs 05:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • But why do readers need to know about the movies? Dabomb87 (talk) 12:26, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment According to the link checker, there are 16 dead links. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:32, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, like was mentioned above NBC Universal Media Village updated their site on October 9th and it killed all the old links. I couldn't find the stories when I last looked, I'm working on it. Staxringold talkcontribs 04:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question Sorry this has taken so long guys, real world stuff. Anyways, would you accept The Futon Critic as an alternate host of the press releases? This, for example, replaces the cite about "upscale" viewers. It's a direct quotation of the press releases, is that acceptable? Staxringold talkcontribs 01:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I personally have no problem with The Futon Critic if it is used for direct press releases, and have used it in a couple of lists I got to FL. This particular press release doesn't actually give a specific viewing figure though, it just says the average for the first 16 episodes. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 10:39, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perfect! If it's been used in FLs before I'll get right on it. That was a bad test case I found quickly last night, I'll re-cite with the exact press releases tonight. Staxringold talkcontribs 14:03, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Goodraise 16:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
*There should be no bold text in the lead.
  • "The third season of 30 Rock ... began on October 30, 2008" - Began to do what?
  • "This season consisted of 22 episodes." - Has that changed?
  • "The third season ... was aired on NBC, terrestrial television network in the United States." - There's some sort of grammar problem here.
  • "The executive producers were series creator Tina Fey, .... and Robert Carlock; Jack Burditt, ... and Ron Weiner acted as co-executive producers." - A period between Robert Carlock and Jack Burditt would do just fine.
  • "the head writer of a fictitious live-sketch-comedy television series titled TGS with Tracy Jordan (commonly known as TGS)." - The sentence is written as if it was the first mention of TGS, yet you are already using the acronym (or rather half of it). This is extremely weird. Either use the abbreviation given above ("TGS") or write the name out ("The Girlie Show with Tracy Jordan (TGS)").
  • "trucker hat–wearing" - Use "-" instead of "–".
  • It's right MOS:DASH. The first is a hyphen, the second is an ndash. They look similar in an edit window, but the ndash is visibly longer when rendered in the article. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Donaghy's full corporate title for the majority of the season is 'Head of East Coast Television and Microwave Oven Programming.'" - Is the period part of the title? If not, move it outside the quotation marks.
  • "When Digital Video Recorder (DVR) viewers are factored into season three's ratings, an average of 1.2 million viewers has been added to each viewership total." - There's some grammar problem with this sentence.
  • "gave the season it an A−" - Strike "the season" or "it".
  • "season 'wildly uneven' and saying 30 Rock was 'merely" - Replace "saying" with "said that".
  • "Primetime Emmy Award" is linked way too often.
  • It is not apparent what source covers the airdates.
  • Then cite that reference after "Original airdate" in the table header. Goodraise 08:05, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The season was released on DVD by Universal Studios on September 22, 2009 in the United States and Canada after it had completed an initial broadcast run on NBC and is scheduled for Australian release on November 11, 2009." - This is a weird construct. Perhaps split it into multiple sentences?
  • "In addition to the episodes" - Add a comma right here.
  • The usage of serial comma is inconsistent throughout the article.
  • "[T]he DVD set included unaired scenes, featurettes, and audio commentary" has the serial comma. "Rachel Yamagata, Talib Kweli and Norah Jones" doesn't. Goodraise 16:17, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further examples: "Kenneth is unhappy with the new page uniforms so Tracy decides to cheer him up with the help of Night Court cast members Harry Anderson, Markie Post and Charlie Robinson." and "Tina Fey is an executive producer, a writer and lead actress." (Stopped searching after finding these two.) Goodraise 08:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The table in the DVD release section lacks visual appeal.
  • The release date thing bothers me too, but the problem is with an odd number of columns but only 2 release dates you can't divide it very easily. Any ideas? Maybe make the release date table a separate table so it can just get split into 2 cols? Staxringold talkcontribs 16:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps you could cover the release dates in prose? Goodraise 08:31, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is covered in the prose, but the style from other lists is for it to be in table. How does this version look (with the dates in a separate table)? Staxringold talkcontribs 13:12, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The other lists aren't up for review here. (Since the table has been completely turned to prose by Cornucopia (talk · contribs), I will strike this item now.) Goodraise 14:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The general references should be formated like references, not like external links.
  • Reference 22 misuses the work parameter of {{cite web}}.
  • The date format is inconsistent (example: reference 25).
  • Reference 38 title needs to be title-cased.
  • Reference 44 misses a publisher (only website name given).
  • A publisher is always an entity (company, person, government, institution, ...). In this case that would appear to be "Guardian News and Media Limited 2009". Goodraise 16:21, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it is okay as is. Strictly the website is the work, and Guardian Media Group is the publisher. However I recall that it shouldn't go in the work field because websites shouldn't be italicised, therefore (personally) I'd just leave it as is, but feel free to shout me down anybody. Additionally we don't usually require a publisher when the work is know and linked. Rambo's Revenge (talk) 16:50, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • That websites shouldn't be italicised is a widespread preference among editors, but not prescribed by the MOS. Personally, I find it an extremely bad practice to stuff information into template parameters that weren't intended to hold that information. As for whether a publisher is required, I always demand it. Knowing the publisher of a source is key information in determining whether the source is reliable. Goodraise 08:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fair-use rational of the infobox image is not convincing.
  • Yes, it's free, but it's not public domain. This comment I'm writing right now is free. That doesn't mean you can do with it whatever you please. It's protected by the CC-BY-SA 3.0 and the GFDL. If you copy it to some other place (like for example another page on Wikipedia) without sufficient attribution for either license, then you're violating my copyright. The bare minimum attribution is a hyperlink or an URL to the page where you got the text. Goodraise 17:05, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The most imporant issue I see is the overly short episode summaries.
  • Above allegations of copyright violations are also troubling.
  • Well, if you say so. (I wasn't the one who brought it up...) Goodraise 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Because of all these issues, I have to oppose this nomination. Goodraise 10:53, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "This season consists of 22 episodes." - Referring to the season like this isn't very elegant. Perhaps you could incorporate the episode count into one of the earlier sentences. Goodraise 16:27, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Better. Not great, but better. Goodraise 07:45, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The third season was produced by Broadway Video, Little Stranger, and NBC Universal, and was aired on NBC." - No comma before the second "and". Goodraise 17:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference 8 title needs to be title-cased. Goodraise 07:17, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "8.7 million viewers, and was the highest" - No comma here. Goodraise 08:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "aired on May 14, 2009, and was viewed" - No comma after "2009". Goodraise 08:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Metacritic gave the pilot a Metascore—a weighted average based on the impression of 17 critical reviews—of 84%." - The number of reviews should not be part of the definition of "Metascore". Also, why is "Metascore" capitalized?
  • I'll remove the review count (although it seems like that's useful information), but Metascore is capitalized as a proper and specific noun. Like why you'd capitalize Viagra (using a random link from another list I've been working on). Staxringold talkcontribs 16:01, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't mean you should remove the count, just that it shouldn't be placed as part of the definition. The way you had it worded originally made it sound as if a weighted average based on the impression of 16 critical reviews would not be a Metascore. As for the capitalization and the Viagra comparasion, "Viagra" is the name of a widely used drug, while "Metascore" is just what Metacritic calls their weighted averages. Personally, I'd avoid the term altogether. Goodraise 08:47, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • How does "Metacritic gave 30 Rock an 84% rating, a weighted average of 17 other reviews" sound? Staxringold talkcontribs 13:03, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I struck my oppose for now. Will give a new vote after I give the article another review pass. Goodraise 18:30, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sources seem fine. Licensing and alt text of images are acceptable. As a whole, the list seems to meet the criteria. However, that I've found so many issues (see my hidden comments), while prose isn't exactly my speciality, leaves me concerned that the list may not meet criteria 1. I would cautiously support this nomination, if it wasn't for that last unresolved comment of mine. Goodraise 16:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC) but I'd really like to hear the opinion of someone better with prose. Goodraise 18:13, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Headshot of a woman in purple speaking into a microphone.
Salma Hayek appeared in six episodes as Jack's mother's nurse, Elisa

I have made some changes to the list based on my experiences, although I hope I haven't created any conflicts with the requests of others. Here are some things you could consider:

  • The lead should summmarise the entire article; however, it seems to mainly concern the awards. I think the awards should only have a small mention, rather than an entire paragraph. I'll be happy to rewrite the lead if need be.
  • Any help you could provide would be appreciated. What would you add, some basic plot summary? Staxringold talkcontribs 15:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I rewrote some of the lead, but the second paragraph is slim. I haven't seen this season yet, so yeah, I would suggest adding some basic plot summary. Maybe mention the main storylines running throughout the season of several characters. That should be enough. Corn.u.co.pia • Disc.us.sion 00:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A production section is not needed, in case you were wondering.
  • I dislike the image of Fey in the crew section as it forces the blank space. That same image of Fey is also plastered on practically every 30 Rock article on Wikipedia. I suggest removing it, and changing things up a bit by adding an image of Salma Hayek or Alan Alda, or any other actor; just anyone who is recognised by this season.
  • I had this Hayek image in the cast section originally but it was removed per eailer comments. If you think it works better I'll replace the Fey with it. Staxringold talkcontribs 15:02, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure what the other reviewers have said, but I dislike the DVD table, and its position. You could convert all the info to prose, like I did here, and then put it into a distribution section with the international airing.

That's all for now, actally I might fix the last point myself. Corn.u.co.pia • Disc.us.sion 14:06, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Also, is there a problem with adding "universal acclaim"? The ref itself mentions it, so there's no violation of NPOV. Corn.u.co.pia • Disc.us.sion 01:52, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I removed it as it seemed fluffy. I love the show, so I'm amenable to leaving it since it's sourced but *shrug*. Staxringold talkcontribs 01:55, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it's important because it gives context. For all the reader knows, a score of 84% could be common. Corn.u.co.pia • Disc.us.sion 03:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - late to the party, my apologies, will do my best to be constructive.
  • I probably always say this but I do get overwhelmed on these series lists with the ways in which they're represented : title "30 Rock (season 3)", infobox "30 Rock Season 3", DVD caption "30 Rock Season Three DVD Cover", lead "third season". You can probably ignore me I just can't quite get my head around all the different formats...
  • Aha, was the DVD "30 Rock: Season 3" per the lead or "30 Rock Season Three" per the infobox caption?
  • I'm going to go with "30 Rock: Season 3" because that's what the official NBC Universal Store ref lists it as. Amazon and TVShowsonDVD actually have it as "30 Rock - Season 3"
  • Date formats in infobox aren't the same.
  • First line of "Crew" seems a verbatim copy of that in the lead, is it really necessary?
  • I think so, just to get back to the idea of production. Feel free to remove though. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fey isn't relinked in the list of execs but everyone else seems to be...
  • "Series writers who have penned episodes ..." I feel the "have" is redundant perhaps?
  • Shouldn't Hayek's caption have a full stop as it seems to be a complete sentence?
  • "signifying universal acclaim" shouldn't that universal acclaim be in quotes really, as I'm not sure metacritic can claim to represent the universe.
  • Yeah, I wasn't sure on this sentence. Put directly in quotes as you say to make it clear. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "called this decision " prefer the sound of "called the decision".
  • "from network Five" not sure it's a "network Five", I watch it and it's just called "Five" and, as far as I know, it's just a channel.
  • This may have been overlooked in previous FLs or even been discussed and dismissed, but why are we capitalising No. and Code in the table heading?
  • "new page uniforms " forgive me, what is this? As in page-boy/girl uniforms?
  • Reworded. Kenneth is an NBC page. Actually, I had no idea that had it's own article, I'll link it in his character description. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Minor - we call flu 'flu as it's a contraction of influenza...
  • I've never seen it spelled that way ever. Again, change the one mention if you want (but the episode title is definitely "Flu Shot" not "'Flu Shot", so that shouldn't get changed). Staxringold talkcontribs 16:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • " after a diabetes diagnosis. " who gets diagnosed? I'd be specific.
  • Reordered to get away from repetition ("tries to get Tracy to avoid sugary foods after Tracy is diagnosed") or antecedent (Kenneth... Tracy... him) problems. Staxringold talkcontribs 16:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "won't be awkward" we tend to discourage contractions like this.
  • Fixed.
  • I thought inadvertantly was spelt inadvertently?
  • "pink slips" - an Americanism I suspect. Can you link this out to something us non-US readers can cope with?
  • Red 48 accessdate needs to be human-readable like all the others.
  • Not sure you need 30 Rock as a category as you have 30 Rock episodes, but it won't kill us.

The Rambling Man (talk) 15:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support on prose. I don't see any glaring issues, and I do not know much of the FL requirements to support on the rest. I was asked to look through the grammar. It was mechanical but fine (the lengthy lists of names makes it mechanical). Ottava Rima (talk) 01:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. All my comments were addressed and I can't fault anything else. Nice job. :) Corn.u.co.pia • Disc.us.sion 05:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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