Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Gwen Stefani discography/archive1
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- The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page. The closing editor's comments were: 15 days, 4 support, 0 oppose. Promote. --MarcK 23:25, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I gave up working on the article awhile ago when I couldn't find any sales figures for her second album. I've searched since then but haven't turned up any, so I'm convinced that had any reliable sources published them, I would have found it by now and I may as well bring the article here. The United World Chart does indicate that it has sold at least 2 million copies, but the reference won't be useful once the album leaves the chart, so I haven't included it. If the reviewers disagree, I wouldn't object to adding it. ShadowHalo 23:37, 30 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I just discovered that with all the time I spent searching articles, I missed the fact that Media Traffic has an archive of its charts. The 2 million sales figure is in there now and sourced to a permanent version of the chart. ShadowHalo 00:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comments
- Have you considered using a Wayback Machine link, if any?
- As it's a discography of stuff she did, these two tribute albums clearly do not belong. If you want them linked, do it in a "See also" section.
- Circeus 00:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The Wayback Machine hasn't archived the page since March, before the album reached 2 million. I've renamed "Tribute albums" to "See also" and simplified it to a bulleted list. ShadowHalo 00:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- There are pages archeived after March. There is a page for May 24 which clearly shows that The Sweet Escape has sales of 2 million+ User:Luxurious.gaurav
- The Wayback Machine hasn't archived the page since March, before the album reached 2 million. I've renamed "Tribute albums" to "See also" and simplified it to a bulleted list. ShadowHalo 00:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
CommentI don't know the guidelines on discographies, but shouldn't there be a list of songs which those two albums contain? I mean the track listings. For the misc. songs, shouldn't the table contain the producers' names and the length of the songs, like, in this article? --Crzycheetah 02:38, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]- The large majority of the discographies I've seen don't include any of those things since WP:MUSTARD recommends using summary style. Entire track listings seem excessive, and song lengths don't really add to one's understanding of the discography and releases since a song's length has little obvious impact. I'd say that the producer probably isn't a necessary thing to include either, not nearly as important as the performer, though if other disagree, it wouldn't be hard to find. ShadowHalo 03:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- When I am reading the Gwen Stefani discography, I want to know what songs she sang and how many songs she had. That's what discography means to me. Since this list lacks several songs of Stefani, I
opposeon the basis of it failing 1(b) ("Comprehensive" means that the list covers the defined scope by including every member of a set). It definitely does not include every member of a set. --Crzycheetah 23:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]- A discography is not a list of songs. The discography article defines it as a "study and listing of sound recordings", Wiktionary as a "collection of the releases of a musical act", and Webster as a "list of recordings". The article does include every member of the set since the set is of all of the releases, not of all of the songs. To be considered one of Wikipedia's best works, the article must conform to WP:MUSTARD, the standards of WPP:MUSIC, which clearly states that the article should be in summary style. ShadowHalo 00:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Having the list of songs does not break WP:SUMMARY. It will still be in summary style.
- I have another concern, I read above that you worked very hard to find a source for the sales figure for "The Sweet Escape" album, but this link does not show that it sold 2 million copies. It just shows the "79.000" figure which looks like a weekly increase, but not a total. And then there is a red triangle next to the name, which I assume may be a symbol of 2 million for that site. If so, then you need to point that out in the references for other readers.--Crzycheetah 01:59, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I assumed that the archive included that note about the triangle. You're right that it doesn't, so I've added a note to the citation linking to the note at the current version of the page. You and I obviously disagree on how WP:SUMMARY applies to discographies. Would you be willing to take the discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music and go by whatever consensus emerges there since it's an issue that applies to more issues than just this article? ShadowHalo 02:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for adding that note. No, I am not going to go and start a discussion there. I am not as sure as I was before about this issue. I believe some time in future that rule (listing all songs) is going to come, though. I am going to
abstain, for now. I really think that it can be more useful and more comprehensive than that, but I don't have any more suggestions. --Crzycheetah 06:02, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply] - I found one suggestion that you may like it. What if the {{hidden}} template is used to show/hide the contents of the albums? It's an attempt to show the contents of the album without actually going to the album's page and come back to this one.--Crzycheetah 17:32, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Any attempt to introduce track listings in such articles is entirely inappropriate and verges on indiscriminate information. The Beatles discography is ridiculously long and thoroughly hard to read; An attempt to turn Red Hot Chili Peppers discography or Celine Dion discography (which is so long it was split in two) into a similar format would make the page simply unusable. If you insist on something similar, what you want is a List of Gwen Stephani songs (or tracks), not a discography. Most importantly, it (totally unnecessarily, at that.) duplicates information. Circeus 19:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Just because they produce too many songs should not harm their disco pages. If it's too long to read, just split it, rather than not to list some info.--Crzycheetah 23:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Any attempt to introduce track listings in such articles is entirely inappropriate and verges on indiscriminate information. The Beatles discography is ridiculously long and thoroughly hard to read; An attempt to turn Red Hot Chili Peppers discography or Celine Dion discography (which is so long it was split in two) into a similar format would make the page simply unusable. If you insist on something similar, what you want is a List of Gwen Stephani songs (or tracks), not a discography. Most importantly, it (totally unnecessarily, at that.) duplicates information. Circeus 19:18, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for adding that note. No, I am not going to go and start a discussion there. I am not as sure as I was before about this issue. I believe some time in future that rule (listing all songs) is going to come, though. I am going to
- I assumed that the archive included that note about the triangle. You're right that it doesn't, so I've added a note to the citation linking to the note at the current version of the page. You and I obviously disagree on how WP:SUMMARY applies to discographies. Would you be willing to take the discussion to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music and go by whatever consensus emerges there since it's an issue that applies to more issues than just this article? ShadowHalo 02:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A discography is not a list of songs. The discography article defines it as a "study and listing of sound recordings", Wiktionary as a "collection of the releases of a musical act", and Webster as a "list of recordings". The article does include every member of the set since the set is of all of the releases, not of all of the songs. To be considered one of Wikipedia's best works, the article must conform to WP:MUSTARD, the standards of WPP:MUSIC, which clearly states that the article should be in summary style. ShadowHalo 00:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- When I am reading the Gwen Stefani discography, I want to know what songs she sang and how many songs she had. That's what discography means to me. Since this list lacks several songs of Stefani, I
- [outdent] It works for me. The information is by default hidden, so it doesn't mess up the layout of the page much since there are only two albums, unlike The Beatles discography, which is simply unreadable. 17Drew 23:48, 11 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you for adding the track listings. I support.--Crzycheetah 18:09, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The large majority of the discographies I've seen don't include any of those things since WP:MUSTARD recommends using summary style. Entire track listings seem excessive, and song lengths don't really add to one's understanding of the discography and releases since a song's length has little obvious impact. I'd say that the producer probably isn't a necessary thing to include either, not nearly as important as the performer, though if other disagree, it wouldn't be hard to find. ShadowHalo 03:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose- I think it should include the Video clips, if the Goldfrapp and Sophie Ellix-Bextor discographies are anything to go by.
- Unreleased song should be dated: "as of July 2007 [...]"
- It's not a Video, it's A DVD. A note indicating its scope would probably be a good idea.
- Circeus 05:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added the music videos. I didn't include the mvdbase reference since the director should be referenced to the video itself (when broadcast, the director is included in a caption at the beginning and end of the video). I also only included the videos where she's the main artist; I can add her three guest appearances if you think it'd be a good idea. I've added the note too. "Video" seems like a more appropriate title since a DVD is just a format. For example, the singles are identified as singles and not by their formats (gramophone, CD, digital, etc.), so video releases should probably use the same standard. I'm not sure what you mean by scope; are you referring to what the video contains (e.g. "Contains a live performance of Stefani in Anaheim, California on the Harajuku Lovers Tour")? ShadowHalo 06:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I was suggesting "DVD" because, to me, "Video" actually implies "VHS," and because both other featured/candidate discographies used it. And actually, some headers, such as "A-side" DO specify the format.
- The music videos sound fine to me. I don't think it made sense to include videos of songs that are not otherwise included in the discography.
- As for the note, that would be quite fine. Circeus 06:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I've added the music videos. I didn't include the mvdbase reference since the director should be referenced to the video itself (when broadcast, the director is included in a caption at the beginning and end of the video). I also only included the videos where she's the main artist; I can add her three guest appearances if you think it'd be a good idea. I've added the note too. "Video" seems like a more appropriate title since a DVD is just a format. For example, the singles are identified as singles and not by their formats (gramophone, CD, digital, etc.), so video releases should probably use the same standard. I'm not sure what you mean by scope; are you referring to what the video contains (e.g. "Contains a live performance of Stefani in Anaheim, California on the Harajuku Lovers Tour")? ShadowHalo 06:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Uneasy
Support. I'm not sure how appropriate is is arguing over the wording of a header. Circeus 06:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]Re-opposeI've been over neglectful in reviewing this.- Chart positions need reliable sourcing. All of them.
- Links should point to the precise chart article, if it exists, not country article.
- Circeus 18:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- All of the chart positions are already well-sourced. The reference for each song is easily identifiable in the References section since inline citations are not required and would look distracting, especially in a table of numbers. I've corrected the link targets. ShadowHalo 22:47, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- *is an idiot* I need to better look at stuff >.<
supportCirceus 23:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Support -It is a real good list article. Never saw any other list article which is so well sourced and maintained. List article are often taken for granted and never maintained. User: Luxurious.gaurav
- Support This list should serve as model for discographies on Wikipedia. Tompw (talk) (review) 23:06, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I definitely disagree. Track listing on all Discographies? That's way overdoing it. Circeus 23:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The track listings are in a show/hide box, which I think is the best way of doing it. Anyway, 17Drew's right - this is beside the point. Tompw (talk) (review) 12:38, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Neutral I do not believe there is any good reason to encourage the inclusion of any sort of track listing in these articles. Circeus 23:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Well, this really isn't the place to decide whether or not track listings should be included. That's a discussion that applies to way more than just this discography, so I've begun a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music#Track listings in discographies. 17Drew 01:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I definitely disagree. Track listing on all Discographies? That's way overdoing it. Circeus 23:28, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Why is the Maximum Gwen Stefani album not listed? link --Crzycheetah 17:07, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Maximum Gwen Stefani isn't an official release. It's more in the category of a tribute album. If I remember correctly, it's a biography of her. On a similar note, I should mention that the See also section will probably be removed once the AfD on the two tribute albums is closed. 17Drew 18:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Understood, thanks. --Crzycheetah 19:17, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Maximum Gwen Stefani isn't an official release. It's more in the category of a tribute album. If I remember correctly, it's a biography of her. On a similar note, I should mention that the See also section will probably be removed once the AfD on the two tribute albums is closed. 17Drew 18:55, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]