Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Cleveland Indians Opening Day starting pitchers/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 18:38, 27 December 2012 [1].

List of Cleveland Indians Opening Day starting pitchers[edit]

List of Cleveland Indians Opening Day starting pitchers (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Astros4477 (talk) 16:31, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because... I feel it meets FLC and matches similar Featured Lists such as List of Chicago Cubs Opening Day starting pitchers and List of Baltimore Orioles Opening Day starting pitchers. Astros4477 (talk) 16:31, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from NapHit (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "The first game of the new baseball season for a team is played on Opening Day..." for a team is redundant
    •  Fixed--Astros4477 (talk) 21:17, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • This isn't entirely accurate. There's an opening day to the Major League Baseball season, but each team also has its own opening day, and they're not necessarily the same. - Eureka Lott 14:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Would it be more understandable if we said, "The first game of the new baseball season is played on the team's Opening Day?"--Astros4477 (talk) 17:29, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "since they began play as a Major League team in 1901" -> since they became a Major League team in 1901
  • Avoid one sentence paragraphs, merge with it another
  • "when Jairo Asencio gave up a 3-run home run in the top of the 16th inning to give the Blue Jays the win." I have no idea what that means, anyway you can make that understandable to someone who doesn't follow baseball?
    • I have added two links so that if readers don't know what a home run and inning are, they can easily find the info.--Astros4477 (talk) 21:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Doesn't really help. What is a 3 run home run? I really understand how this led to the Blue jays winning. If I'm having an issue understanding this then other readers who are not familiar with baseball will have similar trouble. NapHit (talk) 22:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think I have made it understandable.--Astros4477 (talk) 23:08, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • I still don't understand it. I have no idea what gave up a 3run home run means and how this led to victory. I would just remove this bit altogether and state that the game lasted 16 innings, as I don't think the rest can be explained to a non-baseball fan succinctly. NapHit (talk) 13:51, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • I fear you've managed to take a simple sentence and make it rather awkward. The home run is a basic part of the game, and it doesn't take a big fan to figure out how it works. - Eureka Lott 14:07, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm aware of what a home run is, its the sentence as a whole that makes no sense. I don't understand what a 3run home run means, 3 home runs in a row? Its not clear. What is gave up referring to? Why did the player give it up? To the layman its not clear. Its certainly a simple sentence if you understand baseball jargon, but for someone who doesn't its troublesome, hence why I mentioned it. NapHit (talk) 14:40, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If there are two runners on base when a batter hits a home run, it's a three-run home run. The hitter is credited with batting in three runs: one for himself, plus the two baserunners. - Eureka Lott 14:46, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, so I'm going to assume by giving up a 3run home run, the batter mentioned in the sentence failed to achieve a 3run home run? NapHit (talk) 17:16, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No, in the sentence it says Jairo Asencio (who was the pitcher) gave up a three-run home run meaning that Jairo Asencio gave up a home run when two guys were on base. This batted in three runs, the two guys that were on base and the batter himself. We probably should of mentioned that Jairo Asencio was the pitcher.--Astros4477 (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Right, the length of this discussion should be an indication that the sentence is not adequate to readers who are not familiar to baseball, I would simply just say it was the longest game and they got beat. I don't think you can succinctly explain what all that means in the sentence. NapHit (talk) 19:47, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
 Done--Astros4477 (talk) 19:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove the colouring in the column headers, there's no need for it and it obscures the sort keys
  • Table currently does not meet MOS:DTT. Col and row scopes need to be added
    • I added Col scopes but the align center got messed up when I added row scopes.--Astros4477 (talk) 22:30, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You should {{dagger}} instead of the normal dagger, as the normal one can not be deciphered by screen readers.
  • The final score column should sort by margin of victory not in numerical order
    • I'm not sure I agree with this. It sorts by the Indians score. Most, if not all of the articles sort by that teams score.--Astros4477 (talk) 22:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would expect it to sort by margin not score, be interested to see what other reviewers think. NapHit (talk) 22:36, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images could do with alt text
  • You use different date formats in the references be consistent and use one
  • Avoid using the semi-colon for bolding in references section, as can't be deciphered by screen readers

NapHit (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

NapHit (talk) 13:47, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • The final score column should sort by margin of victory not in numerical order
    • I'm not sure I agree with this. It sorts by the Indians score. Most, if not all of the articles sort by that teams score.--Astros4477 (talk) 22:20, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would expect it to sort by margin not score, be interested to see what other reviewers think. NapHit (talk) 22:36, 31 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • The other similar FLs are all sorted on score rather than margin, so that seems to be the consensus as to how to sort this column. Also, sorting on margin could be confusing, since the margin of victory is not explicitly shown - I doubt that readers who sort on this column would generally expect to see a sort based on margin. Rlendog (talk) 21:55, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from TBrandley (talk) 22:26, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • "Cleveland, Ohio" should be two separate links
  • The key table doesn't meet WP:ACCESS, add scope cols and rows to ensure that one does. Headers for the main parameters on key table should use ! rather than |
    •  Done--Astros4477 (talk) 20:31, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, not done. The key table still doesn't have scope cols and rows. Thus, still doesn't pass WP:ACCESS. The header part is done, though. TBrandley 20:41, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • See comment below.--Astros4477 (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • That doesn't relate to this. The key table doesn't have scope cols and rows, and it still doesn't pass WP:ACCESS. Add them, along with plainrowheaders, as said below. TBrandley 21:42, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            •  Done. I completely read over the first part, my bad.--Astros4477 (talk) 22:11, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The pitchers table has scope cols, but not rows, add rows also for WP:ACCESS
    • The problem with that is, it messes up the align center format.--Astros4477 (talk) 20:26, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, you add scope="row" then right after add align="center" for every one, sadly. TBrandley 20:35, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ok I'm still having problems. I've never dealt with this before so I don't know how to do it. I added |scope="row"|align="center"| plus the year and its not working.--Astros4477 (talk) 20:49, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • You did something incorrect. It should be !scope="row" align="center" without the extra |, rather than |scope="row"|align="center"|, which is incorrect. TBrandley 20:56, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • You're going to have to add plainrowheaders to wikitable once you've completed that to avoid the bold links that will be created as a result of the rowscopes. NapHit (talk) 21:12, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "#" should not be used per WP:POUND
  • "Ref" missing dot period
  • Link MLB.com to MLB in references for WP:UNDERLINK
  • The alt text of the images are not correct. "Alt text is meant for readers who cannot see an image, such as blind readers and readers who use a text or mobile browser. It should summarize an image's purpose, and should not duplicate its caption, if it were to have one, or does." All images do duciplate a possible caption, or actual caption used.
    • I guess I'm confused by that. If its a picture of a man in a car, what else am I going to put besides Bob Feller waving his cap in a car?--Astros4477 (talk) 20:34, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just a note, it is for all images, not just that. Regardless, this shouldn't repeat the caption. Rather than saying "Bob Feller", describe him, say "A man that is waving a cap", or something like that. TBrandley 20:37, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

TBrandley 19:59, 2 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Quick comments
  • To avoid repeat Opening Day, instead of "and being named the Opening Day starter is an honor" perhaps "being named the start that day is an honor".
  • Last two sentences of first para of lead start with "The Indians..." which is made worse by the first sentence of the second para doing similarly. Repetitive prose.
  • Would merge first and second sentence of the second para, the first sentence is tiny.
  • "9 wins and 13 losses at Cleveland Stadium and two wins and four losses at" don't mix those formats mid-sentence.
  • Check image captions, those which are incomplete sentences should not have a period.

The Rambling Man (talk) 18:59, 11 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Bloom6132 (talk) 13:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –

—Bloom6132 (talk) 01:41, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support – meets all 6 criteria. Great work! —Bloom6132 (talk) 13:42, 13 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 22:02, 17 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • No need to link Gaylord Perry twice in the lead.
  • Second word of Final Score should be decapitalized in the table and key.
  • Also, "Champions" should be decapitalized twice in the key.
  • In the Addie Joss alt text, "pitchers" should be "pitcher's".
  • Same for the Stan Coveleski alt text, and a space is needed after the word.
  • MLB could be spelled out in ref 1. Giants2008 (Talk) 03:19, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have fixed all your comments, Sorry it took a couple days, I'm usually good about responding to stuff within a day but I somehow missed this when looking at my watchlist. Thanks!--Astros4477 (talk) 22:22, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Harrias
Just a couple of comments from me, but for the most part this looks like a very good list.
  • Given the contents of WP:NOSYMBOLS and MOS:ITALIC I don't think it is appropriate to use italics to identify the home ball parks.
    • Well given it's that way in all Opening Day starting pitcher lists, I think we should leave it.--Astros4477 (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it worth mentioning somewhere that it also includes those players who were starting pitchers when the team was known as the Bluebirds, Broncos and Naps?
  • For 1976, should the location be "Cleveland Stadium" rather than "Cleveland Indians"? Harrias talk 17:17, 5 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neutral: the first two issues I raised have not been addressed. These aren't sufficiently obstructive for me to oppose the article's promotion, but I don't feel I can lend it my support, given these concerns. Harrias talk 14:52, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know they weren't addressed but we want these articles to be consistent and that's how every other Opening Day starting pitcher Featured List is.--Astros4477 (talk) 15:26, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • There is no guideline stating that these lists need to be consistent in format. I agree with Harrias on both accounts, if consistentcy is implant than I would changing the other lists to the format Harrias suggested. NapHit (talk) 01:41, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'll change the second comment but regarding the first, it makes a huge difference, especially in baseball whether a team is home or away and a reader might not know if they were home or away if they're all the same. I feel it makes it seem more clearer. I don't want to have an issue about this, I just feel it benefits the list more than it hurts it.--Astros4477 (talk) 03:18, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • I agree with Astros4477. Distinguishing home openers from road openers is relevant. At one point this was done via boldface type for the home stadium, but a consensus later developed for these lists that italics is the most appropriate method of accomplishing this. Rlendog (talk) 14:46, 20 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • I don't think Harrias was suggesting that home openers shouldn't be distinguished. What he was referring is that italics is probably not the best way to distinguish them, as those reading wiki on a screen reader may not be aware they are distinguished. I would find out ifusing italics is an accessibility concern, I can't recall if it is or not. As there is little else wrong with the list and I will support once this issue is cleared up.— Preceding unsigned comment added by NapHit (talk • contribs) 04:36, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • Absolutely. I concur that the home openers should be distinguished, but our guidelines suggest that italics are inappropriate to do this. Harrias talk 17:44, 24 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • What do you think is the best way to do it?--Astros4477 (talk) 02:25, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would use colour and the double dagger, that should satisfy the concerns. NapHit (talk) 13:37, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The fourth sentence includes a lot of nice information that seems tangential at best, and at worst completely unimportant for the rest of the article: they might be about the Cleveland Indians, but does any of the information really have any bearing on the Opening Day starting pitchers?
    • I think you mean paragraph. I wasn't sure but this information is in other Opening Day starting pitcher Featured Lists.--Astros4477 (talk) 21:45, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support now that access concerns have been met. Harrias talk 07:45, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I don't vote on ACCESS criteria, so no complaints there. I'd go with italics and a double-dagger, not color, though. I'd also like to see the sentence bit "which includes the Opening Day starting pitchers from the Bluebirds and the Naps" changed to something that references that those were prior names for the team- I assumed that was what you meant, but it wasn't obvious since you'd never mentioned those names prior. The issue is not enough to withhold my support, however. Consider archiving your references so that if Retrosheet or Baseball Reference ever go down or radically change their site you don't lose all of your citations- I can give further instructions if needed. --PresN 04:29, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not too familiar on how to do that but I don't really think that's needed. It's always been stable. Also, I don't think color should be used either, I think there would be too much.--Astros4477 (talk) 05:24, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • As long as you use the double dagger I'm not going to make a fuss.NapHit (talk) 11:46, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree, italics and a double dagger would be sufficient for me. Harrias talk 12:05, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • I have added a double-dagger to the home games. I think all the comments have been addressed.--Astros4477 (talk) 17:45, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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