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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was archived by Giants2008 via FACBot (talk) 00:25, 11 May 2020 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of North Carolina militia units in the American Revolution[edit]

List of North Carolina militia units in the American Revolution (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): User:G._Moore Talk to G Moore 01:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:G._Moore is nominating this for a featured list because it is a comprehensive look at North Carolina militia units during the American Revolution. It contains an introduction and sortable list of the units and their first commander. It will be of interest to readers of the history of the American Revolution and early North Carolina history. G._Moore (talk · contribs) Talk to G Moore 01:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:09, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
*Oppose - note 6: "References are contained in the individual brigade or regiment pages, as well as biography pages, where they have been created". Unfortunately it doesn't work like that, the references need to be in this article. There's quite a few issues with style, links, etc, which I will set out later, but the lack of refs is the big one. The article will never pass WP:FLC with a note that essentially says "you need to look in other articles to find the sources"...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 17:47, 15 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Additional comments
    • "The following is a comprehensive list of known North Carolina militia units in the American Revolution that fought against the British" - FLs do not start with "this is a list", so find a way to create a better opening
    • "The size of brigades [....] were commanded" - grammar issue here
    • "In 1775, the Rowan County regiment was split on October 22, 1775" - don't need both "in 1775" and the exact date
    • There seems to be no coherent order to the table - it isn't alphabetical, it isn't by date of formation. What is it based on?
    • "Col Thomas Witmell, Thomas" - huh? There's a few like this.....
    • As mentioned above, the lack of references in the article is a 100% deal breaker. And to add to that, at least some of the content isn't even referenced in the relevant article, as the note claims. At random I clicked on the link for Cumberland County Regiment and the article it took me to doesn't contain a reference to support the fact that Rutherford was its commander...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:33, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References and sort order

  • The units, dates, and commanders all come from the references listed in the bibliography, e.g. Conner, Crow, Lewis, etc.. There are more detailed references in the linked articles when they exist. I was struggling with the right way to reference a long list. Does every entry in the list have to have its own reference? I used a combination of all the references in the bibliography to develop the list.
  • The table can be sorted by each of the columns. I was not sure what the initial order needed to be if the table can be sorted--some units changed Brigade during the war. The units are currently in the order of the units they were subordinated to.

User:G._Moore User talk:G._Moore 13:13, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)

  • "Does every entry in the list have to have its own reference?" - yes, it does. It should be completely clear what the source of each specific piece of information in the article is. So if the name, dates and commander of a specific unit are all sourced to one particular book, then that needs to be indicated on that row of the table.
  • While it is true that the table can be sorted on any of the columns, it should be presented in a logical fashion when readers first arrive on the article, not just at random. In this example I would personally suggest that the date of formation is the most logical order for initial sorting. I don't understand what you mean when you say "The units are currently in the order of the units they were subordinated to", because the values in the subordination column are not grouped together - "North Carolina Militia", for example, is dotted all over the table...........
  • HTH -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:22, 16 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • BTW you don't need to put a name (Lewis, NCPedia, etc) for each ref to go against. Just do it like the first row (which I have just edited) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:50, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • BTW what makes Lewis (carolana.com) a reliable source? It just seems to be some random guy's personal website...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:53, 18 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • He has a book that documents his research and has put all of the information in the database that is online. I have compared his results to all of the other sources and have found it most accurate. He actually used some 50,000 sources to compile the information. I added an intro to the bibliography about the work that has been done. Whenever I see a discrepancy, I send him a note and he corrects it based on the original sources. William S. Powell, a state historian in North Carolina, has produced an encyclopedia of NC history, much of what is now online in a cite called NCPEDIA. Together, these have been my guides to NC Revolutionary History. I found that having this in WikiPedia was really nice because it links to the other info in Wikipedia on NC and the Revolution. Let me know if there is anything else that I should do to the list. User:G._Moore User talk:G._Moore
      • I don't think that note above the bibliography is needed, and referring to the "heroic efforts" of historians definitely doesn't conform to WP:NPOV..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • I took out the non-NPOV wording. I think the intro for the bibliography does add to the historical perspective on how we know about these units. It was not just a matter of copying from muster rolls and Tables of Organization. I asked J.D. Lewis to review the page. I put his comments on the Talk page. Is there anything more to do on this FL nomination? User:G._Moore talk 18:21, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:SPS "Anyone can create a personal web page, self-publish a book, or claim to be an expert. That is why self-published material such as books, patents, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, personal or group blogs, content farms, internet forum postings, and social media postings are largely not acceptable as sources. Self-published expert sources may be considered reliable when produced by an established expert on the subject matter, whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications." Has Mr Lewis been published on the subject (by independent outlets - his books listed in the bibliography are self-published)? Has he been cited in others' publications? Trying to establish if he is regarded as an established expert on this subject rather than simply an avid amateur....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:04, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
J.D. Lewis's works are cited in the following journals, bibliographies, books, historical societies, public education curricula, and South Carolina County governments. His books are also available via Google books:
  • "The Battle of Moores Creek Bridge". Journal of the American Revolution. January 6, 2014.
  • "Evolution of Marion's Brigade after the Fall of Charleston" (PDF). Francis Marion Symposium. 2018.
  • "St. Joseph the resting place of Revolutionary soldier". News Press Now.com. November 17, 2019.
  • Whitney, Frank (2015). Jean Ternant and the Age of Revolutions: A Soldier and Diplomat (1751-1833 ... ISBN 978-1-4766-6213-8.
  • "National Humanities Center, America in Class, Primary Sources in the American Revolution".
  • "Francis Marion Trails".
  • "Annual Francis Marion Symposium". 2014.
  • Smith, Claiborne T. (1979). "Alston Philip". NCPedia.
  • "Lesson Plan: Overview, Into the Wild: Settling the South Carolina Backcountry". Teaching American History in the South.
  • "Swamp Fox Research Hub". seeking liberty.org.
  • "A Roadside Guide to Chester County, South Carolina Association of Counties" (PDF). 2019.

G._Moore (talk · contribs) 22:02, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:08, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments on the notes

-- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:17, 19 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from zmbro
  • There you go. Under "view history", there's a link that says "fix dead links" which will take you to the IABot which tags and fixes dead links. There's also an optional button that says "add archives to all non-dead references" which you click. It makes it much easier to do it manually. HTH :-) – zmbro (talk) 15:28, 22 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry what I meant by that was you spell out "thirty-five" but then use numbers for "37" a few sentences later. I just meant either spell it out or use numbers for both. My bad.
  • Is there a template box that can be added?
  • "Rumple, Jethro Rev (1881). A History of Rowan County." This is a book and will need much more than author year & title
  • "Connor, Robert D.W. (1916). Revolutionary Leaders of North Carolina (PDF). Greensboro: North Carolina State Normal & Industrial College." This is in both "references" and "bibliography"
  • Not sure if "carolana.com" is an RS (same with "beaufortartist.blogspot.com" on ref 67 since it's a blog)

What I've found so far. Lots of problems but seems do-able. – zmbro (talk) 16:53, 21 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

    • See note above. The carolana.com website is a database based on the books that J.D. Lewis wrote on the North Carolina militia. He lists the sources used in the database, also. It is considered by the researchers of the North and South Carolina Revolutionary War history a Reputable Source. Carteret County during the American Revolution 1765-1785,
    • I am still trying to find a more direct link to the book, Carteret County during the American Revolution 1765-1785, by Jean Bruyere Kell

This has been quite the learning experience. I will take a look at it again tomorrow and see if everything is fixed. Thanks everyone for your help and kind advice. G._Moore (talk · contribs) 05:53, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Took a final look at everything this morning and added: a few links, description of places were the units fought with existing ref; image of MG Smallwood (2nd NC Militia commander, sorry no images of John Ashe, Sr. the 1st cc, he died in 1781); summary of table. Can't think of anything more to add or fix. G._Moore (talk · contribs) 16:03, 23 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If there are no more unresolved issues, what is the process for making this a Featured List? G._Moore (talk · contribs) 03:51, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I added publishers for all the Bibliographi references and inline citations that were books. G._Moore 19:33, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support from Chidgk1

A few minor things:

Done. G. Moore 22:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am not familiar with US history: " .... the head of the Council of Safety which oversaw resistance to British rule." implies there was more than one Council of Safety or should there be a comma after Council of Safety?
There was a Council/Committee of Safety at the Provincial level. and each county in North Carolina had a Committees of Safety. See Committees of safety (American Revolution) and Rowan County Committee of Safety
  • "....arranging representation in the executive body." so by "the executive body" you mean the council? If so maybe change to "... in the council".
Done. G. Moore 22:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't understand "organised" in "The North Carolina Provincial Congress authorized 35 existing county militias to be organized on September 9, 1775.". Perhaps "called-up"?
The wording comes from the Provincial Congress minutes. The militia were only county entities until the Congress acted to organize them in the interim government. Again, I think this is what is stated in the minutes of the Congress. G. Moore 22:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not recognise the meaning of "subordination" but figured it out from the context - I cannot think of the proper word though.
Subordination is a common term used in the military to show the hierarchy of units. G. Moore 23:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suppose LTC means Lieutenant colonel - maybe I missed the link.
It is a common abbreviation for a US Army Lieutenant Colonel. I linked Lieutenant Colonel, the first time it occurred and added the abbreviation in parenthesis. G. Moore 22:43, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you have time could you point out my mistakes in Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of active coal fired power stations in Turkey/archive1 Chidgk1 (talk) 17:32, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I will take a look at it. Going through a Featured List review is one of the most instructive things that I have done in Wikipedia. G. Moore 23:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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