Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Olympic medalists in figure skating/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 22:23, 11 August 2009 [1].

List of Olympic medalists in figure skating[edit]

Nominator(s): Parutakupiu (talk) 15:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

This list is among the biggest and most important lists covered by the WikiProject Olympics, concerning one of the oldest and most popular Olympic sports. Before I gave it a major revamping, the page only displayed the medalist tables. As you can check, it now has a reasonable lead, fully sourced, giving context to the article and the lists; a statistics section, as per similar recently featured lists (e.g. List of Olympic medalists in badminton, List of Olympic medalists in snowboarding); and plenty of correctly licensed images. I believe this lacks little to attain a little star, but it's your call. Parutakupiu (talk) 15:45, 17 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
I'll try to add, but I'm not sure if I can add the best possible, most adequate alt text to each of them. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Eubulides (talk · contribs) is something of an expert on alt text; you might consult him/her on whether the alt text is adequate. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:36, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I just did so. Thanks. Parutakupiu (talk) 21:50, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Alt text added (and approved by User:Eubulides). Parutakupiu (talk) 22:28, 19 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No need to link United Kingdom or France.
    • Links removed.
  • "who entered in four consecutive " Prefer "competed" to "entered".
    • Word replaced.
  • "having collected a total of four medals"
    • Removed.
  • "He is also the only man to win three successive singles gold medals"-->He is the only man to have won three consecutive singles gold medals
    • Rephrased.
  • "at both Summer and Winter Olympics."-->at both the Summer and Winter Olympics.
    • Done.
  • Put User:Splarka/dabfinder.js into your monobook.js. It will identify dabs as well redirects that need to be fixed, and there are plenty of the latter in this article.
    • I added the script a few weeks ago, but can't seem to make it work...
      • That's because you just copied the script. Put importScript('User:Splarka/dabfinder.js'); in your monobook and it should work. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:26, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Fixed the majority of the redirects. There's one that exists because it's the singular form of the article's name, but it has to be used this way; and another created by a template. Parutakupiu (talk) 19:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • There should be em dashes in the blank cells of the "Medals per year" table. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I tested adding em dashes to the blank cells but that messes a bit with the sorting function.

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:00, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • The first general ref needs to be formatted (publisher, accessdate).
    • Done.
  • We shouldn't be using Encyclopædia Britannica (ref 6) or other tertiary sources, except for overview statements. Dabomb87 (talk) 02:40, 23 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Truco
Comments from Truco (talk · contribs)
General
  • Dabs and external links check out fine.
Lead
  • Figure skating was first contested as an Olympic sport at the 1908 Summer Olympics, in London, United Kingdom. -- Is the link to the UK really needed?
  • Removed.
  • It was featured a second time at the Antwerp Games,[2] after which it was permanently transferred to the program of the Winter Olympic Games, first held in 1924 in Chamonix, France. -- Maybe adding a link to the 1924 Winter Olympics?
  • Link added.
  • Swedish figure skater Gilles Grafström—who entered in four consecutive Olympics, from the 1920 Summer Games to the 1932 Winter Games—is the overall medal leader in the sport, having collected a total of four medals. -- Links to the respective games?
  • Added link for 1932 Games; the 1920 Games already have a link in "Antwerp Games".
  • Three other active National Olympic Committees (NOCs) own 20 medals: Austria, Russia and Canada. -- Why not link to the other countries at the Olympics?
  • They already exist in earlier instances.
Medals per year
  • Not that you have to do this, but how about adding "0s" or "dashes" for the empty cells?
  • "0s" don't mess with the sorting but they fill too much the table, almost obscuring the main figures. Dashes don't have that visual impact, but they do mess a bit with the sorting function.
  • You could always do it like this {{sort|0|—}}, that way it looks like "—" but sorts like "0" and you get the best of both options. MPJ-DK (talk) 08:35, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yeah, thought about that too. It is the best shot, despite the table script getting huge by adding hundreds of those. I'll see if I can use AutoWikiBrowser for that. Thanks. Parutakupiu (talk) 15:20, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • You don't necessarily have to do it. I've seen previous lists fly without it, so its your choice. Just let us know what you are planning to do.--Truco 503 16:04, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I added en-dashes and removed the table sorting, to become consistent with other similar articles. Parutakupiu (talk) 00:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I like it =)--Truco 503 17:47, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
References
  • Support -- Previous issues resolved/clarified; list now meets WP:WIAFL. --Truco 503 17:47, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Giants2008 (17–14) 23:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "Since 1964, Russian figure skaters—representing the Soviet Union, the Unified Team, or Russia—have always won a gold medal in the pairs event, a record that still stands." What record is this referring to? Is it a record for most consecutive golds won by a country? If it's just a performance record, I think the last part could be dropped. It's pretty clear that the streak is active.
    • You're right; rephrased that one.
  • This caught my eye in a photo caption: "reached the Olympic title". A pair cannot "reach" a title, despite what the sportswriters may say.
    • Reworded that portion of the caption.
  • Any photos of ice dancing pairs? The rest of it is so well-illustrated that it would be nice to see a photo of ice dancers, if one is avaliable.
    • Well, the photo that contains the caption you've addressed above is of an ice dancing pair. I really wanted to have a photo of Torvill & Dean, but it's incredible that there's no single photo that can be used freely in Wikipedia...
  • Medals per year: Bolding in tables is discouraged in the Manual of Style. I think it wants us to use italics instead. Giants2008 (17–14) 22:49, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • It's getting hard to find a consensual format for this table... Previously, it didn't have the boldfaced numbers because the highest medal count per year were explicit by sorting each column. The issue pointed out was that sortable tables were not present in similar already-featured lists, so I decided to remove the sorting option to give way for consistency. I now think that all those other lists should've had the sortable table in the first place, since they all use boldface as well. I honestly don't find it a good way to emphasize numerical data, so I kind of agree with the guidelines there. Concerning your suggestion, I don't think italics will do the job either. In my personal opinion, these tables should be sortable and have en-dashes sorted as "0", so that sorting is not messed up, even it means adding hundreds of {{sort|0|–}} to the table's empty cells. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:39, 26 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I would rather see a table that conforms to our guidelines, even if a particular WikiProject prefers a different format, but I see there are differing opinions here. If I see a good argument on the opposite side, I am willing to go along with the present table. Giants2008 (17–14) 22:15, 30 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've brought this subject to the WikiProject with the intention of discussing and reaching consensus over a definitive format, but I haven't had any replies, so I'm not positive I can address this issue in reasonable time. Parutakupiu (talk) 11:22, 3 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • Any thoughts from any other reviewers watching this FLC? Giants2008 (17–14) 18:14, 4 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
            • I think the sortable version offers far more options and looks better than the bolding/italics. The problem comes when you come to deciding where thinks should sort. Regards, Woody (talk) 09:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Now that the one table has had a format agreed upon by all, I think the standards are met. The red links don't bother me that much, and they can easily be made blue if consensus requires it. Giants2008 (17–14) 23:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for the moment.

  • Links, in the first column, you have a lot of redlink "details", most of these can be easily made blue. Take 2002 in the pairs for example, I found [[]].
    • It is a the long-term goal of the Olympics WikiProject to create articles for those red links in the same fashion as the ones created for the most recent Games, which will serve as template for the older Games. Besides, those links are formatted so that they give rise to an adequately named article concerning that exact event, not pointing to sections in a a broader article. They are useful red links as per WP:RED, imo.
  • For the medals per year table, what does the colour signify? Can we have a key? Also, per WP:ACCESSIBILITY/WP:COLOUR colour shouldn't be "the only way used to convey important information."
    • I added a small text before the table explaining the significance of the dashes and the colored cells. Is is enough?
      • No it isn't. You still have a large number of cells that are completely empty apart from some colour. To some colour blind people or people using screen readers etc they will just be empty cells with nothing to signify why. Generally tables should not have empty cells. Woody (talk) 10:00, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Filled each shaded cell with a character that is explained in a key I added above the table. Parutakupiu (talk) 20:37, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apart from those, it does look good. Images are appropriate and licensed, sources look good, the lead looks good. Regards, Woody (talk) 09:17, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Everything else looks great, but please remove the xs from the Medals per year table. They make the table look very full, cluttered, and ugly and are out of line with all other medalist lists. Keep the key, but even for those who can't see the colors, an empty cell represents nonparticipation because there are only gray empties and no white empties. Reywas92Talk 18:54, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this assessment. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Whilst I do agree that it does look a bit cluttered, generally you should not have empty cells in a table. A coloured background does not count as filling a table for all of the accessibility reasons mentioned. By your reasoning there is no need to have the gray in the table at all given that empty cells are their own indicators. That others have failed to live up to guidelines and policies in the past does not mean that you shouldn't abide by them in the future. Regards, Woody (talk) 19:31, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I really don't know where people got the idea in the first place that tables shouldn't have empty cells. They look just fine to me. And you're right, you don't even need the gray, though I do think it's appropriate. Otherwise those should be the ones with the dashes and no medals is a zero (But don't take that as a suggestion!!) How about at least something smaller and less ugly and cluttering than an x, then, like a small dot? It's just really unnecessary. Reywas92Talk 19:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I've been further from removing the table altogether. It's giving more problems than what it's worth, at least to this specific article. I'm feeling a bit like the guy whose arms are being pulled to opposite sides. Please, what layout do you think can solve all your concerns? Do I keep the gray cells with the "x"? Do I replace it with a more discrete character? Do I remove the color altogether and display information with another character? Parutakupiu (talk) 22:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I suppose this does place you in an awkward position, my apologies for that. The colour is up to you: it doesn't have to be there, I don't mind if it is or if it isn't. I will say that I think it isn't much use when you already have a symbol in the table. I don't particularly mind what symbol you have in there: if you think there is a less intrusive one, try it out. Regards, Woody (talk) 09:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to apologize, it comes with being a reviewer. The problem is that there isn't any guideline regarding table presentation, more specifically whether empty cells should exist or not... One thing you're right: color becomes accessory when info is also conveyed by another way.Parutakupiu (talk) 09:48, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well I think the color is a lot easier to see than the cluttered extra symbols, even for those who can't see it because it's empty. Help:Table says "For empty cells, use the non-breaking space   as content to ensure that the cells are displayed." From that I see that there's nothing wrong with having empty cells. However I think with updates over the years it is unnecessary to have the space - they always show up fine for a wikitable. And please don't remove the useful table. Reywas92Talk 14:18, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support For the redlinked "details", I believe they're secondary links and can stay red. Good thing is that all medalists are blue. As for the gray cells, I'll leave it to the nominator/main contributor to decide what to do; though, I'd prefer the way it is now...with those x's.--Crzycheetah 01:50, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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