Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Rugby Union World Cup hat-tricks/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by SchroCat via FACBot (talk) 00:26, 4 January 2016 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of Rugby Union World Cup hat-tricks[edit]

List of Rugby Union World Cup hat-tricks (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): NapHit (talk) 19:39, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Following on from the 2015 Rugby World Cup, I've decided to tak it upon myself to improve this list. After cleaning up the list I now believe it meets the criteria and is ready to be scrutinised by the community. One question I do have of reviewers is whether drop goals should be included in the list. Four players have scored a hat-trick of drop goals during RWC matches and I'm not 100% sure whether they should be included. Cheers. NapHit (talk) 19:39, 9 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Parutakupiu (talk) 10:27, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comments: Seeing as the title does not mention a particular type of hat-trick, and there's only four players who scored three drop goals in a RWC match, I guess you could include them in the list. Parutakupiu (talk) 22:20, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Added drop goals now @Parutakupiu:, let me know what you think! NapHit (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

More comments:

  • Are you sure "... over 60 players have scored three tries or drop goals (a hat-trick) in a single match"? Over 60 hat-tricks have been scored, true, but by only 56 players (if I counted right...).
  • I read in the lead about Craig Green scoring the first RWC hat-trick and I'm left wondering if he did that right in 1987 or in later RWCs. Could you add the year after "... New Zealand's 74–13 victory over Fiji."?
  • Why highlight Gallagher in "Including Gallagher, fifteen players have scored more than three tries in a match...", when Craig Greene also did that? Maybe rephrasing to "Besides Greene and Gallagher, fourteen players have scored more than three tries in a match..." or just saying "Sixteen players have scored more than three tries in a match..." .
  • Change the semicolon in "Four players have scored a hat-trick of drop goals; Jannie De Beer..." to a colon.
  • When listing the players who scored hat-tricks in the RWC knockout stages, I think it would be more helpful to have the respective citation tags as close as possible to each player's name, instead of all clumped at the end of the sentence.
  • "Five players have scored multiple World Cup hat-tricks, Savea is the only player to have scored two hat-tricks at the same tournament." → "From the five players that have scored multiple World Cup hat-tricks, Savea is the only to have scored them in the same tournament."
  • The lead image size should be no more than 300px, or preferably upright=1.35.
  • Jannie De Beer's name is not rendering correctly in the table.
  • What does the D5 note mean? It's not explained in the key table. I know it's "five drop goals" but it could also be interpreted as "drop goal hat-trick + five tries" (which should be rendered D,5). I think that now that you've added the drop goal hat-tricks to this list, you should be more cautious with the way you distinguish players that have only try hat-tricks from those that have only drop goal hat-tricks. Particularly the latter, they appear in the list as they always scored both types.
  • In the multiple hat-tricks table, I think it's more informative to list the years in which the hat-tricks were scored than the date of the last one. Especially because there's only one other hat-trick scored by each of those players.
  • Can Ireland be considered a "country" in international rugby union? It's probably wiser to use "By national team" (or just "By team") in the sub-section name, and "Hat-tricks by national team" (or just "Hat-tricks by team") in the table caption.

— Parutakupiu (talk) 01:39, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments @Parutakupiu: much appreciated, I've addressed them all. NapHit (talk) 11:22, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've mildly copyedited the lead, in which I end up undoing one of the changes you introduced per my suggestion. I think the list is ready for promotion, but I'm still a bit unsure about the distinction between players with try hat-tricks and drop-goal hat-tricks. Because as it is, the default is that players that don't have any note are the ones that scored three tries, right? This tends to give higher importance to this sort of hat-tricks over the drop-goal ones, which have actually been less frequent. I think that, for equity, perhaps players with three tries could also have a note T, while those with four, five and six, could have T4, T5 and T6. What do you think, NapHit? Parutakupiu (talk) 16:05, 15 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree it is slightly ambiguous at the moment. Your suggestion is good and I'm open to it, however, I do have an alternative. I could put a note before the table stating: Unless noted, the players scored a hat-trick of tries. Do you think this would work? Or is the T better @Parutakupiu:?
That was actually my second option. I'd put "Unless noted otherwise, the players listed below scored a hat-trick of tries." Parutakupiu (talk) 01:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Done 09:07, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Comments:

  • I think the definition of a hat-trick needs a reference in this case, as I do not think it is very obvious why dopgoals should count
    • I don't think a reference is necessary, the terms of hat-trick are defined in the lead. I also don't see how its not obvious why drop goals would count. If a player scores three in a match it's a hat-trick by default. NapHit (talk) 21:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Currently, the hat-trick article specifically refers only to tries. By your rationale penalty takers would get hat-tricks essentially every game. Right now your definition looks like OR. Nergaal (talk) 21:29, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Added reference which lists all drop goal hat-tricks in RWC. NapHit (talk) 12:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think 4, 5, and 6 should be changed to T4, T5, and T6 to be more clear; maybe change D to D3 for clarity
    • Again, not sure this is necessary, as the key states what the markers refer to, so should it be clear. NapHit (talk) 21:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • You do realize that right now they look like they are references?
        • Done it, as Parutakupiu mentioned this as well. NapHit (talk) 12:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • have colors for D and T entries?
    • I don't see the benefit of this when the D and 4,5,6 etc indicate which is which. NapHit (talk) 21:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "multiple World Cup hat-tricks" => two WC ht
  • the table feels unreferenced
    • It's referenced by the two general refs NapHit (talk) 21:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • No it is not. The the reference refers strictly to tries/drops, not to 2+1 or 1+2 scenarios. And you can easily explicitly put the reference link in the |+ line of the table
        • I think this is a matter of taste, the table is referenced by the general refs, to say otherwise is stupid. A 2+1 scenario would not be a hat-trick, it refers to 3 of one method, there is no reference to anyone that scored 2+1 or 1+2 and it being referred to as a hat-trick. NapHit (talk) 12:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Of the Six Nations and Rugby Championship teams, only Italy have failed to score a hat-trick at the World Cup." maybe something like "All but Italy of of the 10 teams in SN or RB teams"
    • I think it reads fine the way it is NapHit (talk) 21:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Someone not paying attention to rugby would not know that there are 10 teams in the tier 1 competitions, which is what the current sentence is implying
  • rm "Other than the Six Nations and Rugby Championship teams," and add "are the only OTHER teams"
  • "feat in the same match" maybe mention the year it happened
  • not sure about including "two of Ellis's team-mates, Eric Rush and Jeff Wilson, also scored hat-tricks in this game"
    • Don't see anything wrong with it, it's not normal for three players to score three hat-tricks in a single match, so I think it's worth a mention. NapHit (talk) 21:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nergaal (talk) 20:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments @Nergaal:, I've responded to them all. NapHit (talk) 21:24, 30 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Replied further @Nergaal: NapHit (talk) 12:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ref you put in specifically says HT of drop-goals. I think for the sake of clarity it would be much better to split the large table into tries and drop-goals. Also, there is no reference saying that 3 conversions or 3 penalties do not count as hat-tricks. Nergaal (talk) 19:21, 3 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hmmm, I'm not sure splitting the table is a good move. We have the markers indicating which ones were drop goals and there has only been four. I think it should stay as it is. You never here 3 conversions or penalties referred to as hat-tricks, it's just tries and drop goals as they come from open play. Look at any rugby match report where a players has 3 penalties or conversions, they're never referred to as hat-tricks. NapHit (talk) 10:36, 4 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • But a hat-trick of drop goals is extremely rare IMHO compared to a "regular" hat-trick. Nergaal (talk) 22:43, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • I completely agree a hat-trick of drop goals is a rare feat, I just don't think this warrants there being separate tables for each. I think the way it is now works well and allows the reader to sort all hat-tricks together, which is more useful than having two separate tables. NapHit (talk) 19:05, 6 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any more to add @Nergaal:? Have your comments been addressed? NapHit (talk) 22:01, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • At least use a background color for D3 and D5. Nergaal (talk) 01:18, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support although I still have reservation about merging drop goals with tries. Nergaal (talk) 22:08, 18 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As with @Nergaal:, I don't see how 3 drop goals and 3 tries are considered the same thing, but apart from that, I think it's good enough for a FL. Joseph2302 (talk) 22:28, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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