Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of World Series of Poker Main Event Champions

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Scorpion0422 19:20, 27 January 2009 [1].

List of World Series of Poker Main Event champions[edit]

On behalf of the Poker Wikiproject I present to you my first attempt at a FL. It is a complete list of the WSOP Main Event Champions. I've done everything that I can see to make it an FL based upon what I see from other lists. I am looking for ideas and ways to improve this if it isn't up to standards, but I believe it is. ---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 06:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24[c]
  • Prose is way too short for this kind of material. I suggest you make the prose at least 1500 characters (this will also allow you to nominate this article for T:TDYK).
  • I haven't read it yet, but in general three paragraphs is plenty for a list (it's not an article, after all). Giggy (talk) 03:09, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As an experienced user with featured lists, I'm sure 1000 characters is way below the minimum of my standards. This is also the WSOP, and all paragraphs can be expanded. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 03:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a more experienced user with less featured list activity (for it is tough to have more - well done) I think we should examine each case on each individual merits rather than having a hard and fast rule. That said I know nothing about the subject. If you have ideas as to how the paragraphs can be expanded I'm sure Balloonman would love to hear them! Giggy (talk) 03:18, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • As an experienced featured list reviewer, I think that that the lead is a perfect overview of the subject, it just needs to summarize the list more—see my comments below. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the lead is a perfect overview" No, no, no, no, no, I just really can't take 1000 characters in a featured list prose. I never supported something less than 10 sentences. Add more of an overview for the WSOP, and that will be fine. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 05:51, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done Expanded significantly.
  • Nicknames are not referenced. I suggest you remove that column.
done I didn't remove them, but I added references. Nicknames in Poker are fairly important. For example, nobody knows Sailor Roberts as Brian Roberts, or Amarillo Slim as Thomas Preston, or Puggy Pearson as Walter Pearson. Similarly, Texas Dolly, the Poker Brat, Jesus, Fossilman, the Prince of Poker are almost synonymous with the player. IMO omitting their nicknames would be negligent in a list of this nature.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 06:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • WSOP logo is non-free used.
done Removed.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 06:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I guarantee you that most of the images have false licenses. I suggest you do an image review.
done See note below.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 06:34, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference column needs to be center aligned (use align=center. examples are in more than half of the FLs edit pages).
done
  • Column headings can be shortened. (ie. Total bracelets --> Bracelets; Tournament Entrants --> Entrants; Tournament Prize (US$) --> Prize (US$)) For the examples I can show you, you can explain it briefly in the key.
done
  • On the Tournament Prize (US$) column, put a "$" before all of the numbers. Also with Lifetime Winnings.
done

More to come... -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 07:02, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks SRE, I'll work on these over the weekend. Please post your other comments as well and I'll see if I can address them.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:32, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I get really pissed when people call me SRE. Call me SREKAL, Annoyomous, or my full username and that's it. :D -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 07:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies... no offense intended.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 17:12, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've uploaded many of the images on commons and I assure you they are not false licenses, many of the images are from lasvegasvegas.com, if you read the bottom of the page it reads "All material © LasVegasVegas.com under the creative commons license unless materials are under existing copyright and said materials are the property of of their respective copyright holders. LasVegasVegas.com expressly disclaims any warranty relating to any content of any pages or any links provided on these pages. Please read our terms and conditions and privacy policy for more information on this site." and this is the link of their terms [2] which states that This work is licensed under a Creative Commons License. The site permits the images from their photographer known as flipchip who allows his images from the site to be licences this way, please read what he has said about it here and here which reads "Thanks for all the positive comments over the years, that's what keeps me coming back. As always, photos on LasVegasVegas.com are covered under a Creative Commons Licensing Agreement requiring only a credit tag line if you use them. I'm a firm believer in paying it forward." I had one administrator on Commons misunderstand the license, and had to take it to have the matter re-reviewed at Commons:Undeletion requests to have the mistake corrected. I've worked hours on end finding freeuse images, most of the time finding nothing at all, there are still five Main Event World Champions that have no images even though they can be found easily on the internet but without freeuse licenses, which is why they are not there. Other images came from Flickr and were searched for using the filters:

  1. Only search within Creative Commons-licensed content
  2. Find content to use commercially
  3. Find content to modify, adapt, or build upon

Such as this image of Jerry Yang [3] Other older images uploaded by User:CryptoDerk who recieved permission so that the images have a GFDL license as seen in this note: "This image is part of the University of Nevada at Las Vegas Special Collections on the World Series of Poker. Permission was given by David Schwartz, coordinator of the Gaming Studies Research Center, to use any materials from this site in accordance with the GFDL."▪◦▪≡SiREX≡Talk 10:54, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note I asked Giggy, who is a 'crat on commons to check out the images, and he says that everything appears kosher.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It took 11 years before the event drew 52 participants in 1982." On the list, it has 104.
comment 104 is correct, the ESPN article that talked about the growth, was in error.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • What cites the column "Entrants"?
Added a link to the WSOP cite for various tournaments. Each event can be found there, I'd rather not have to link each and every single event to a specific page we are on the verge of link excess---especially if I have to have multiple links for each item on the table.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 05:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last two sentences on the first paragraph needs refs.
Added a link to the Harrah's reference, but won't add one for the fact that amateurs and professionals can play if they ante the buy-in. This is basic knowledge of the WSOP and everybody who knows about the WSOP know that this distinguishes the WSOP from other world championship events---in other words, this is so common of knowledge, that it doesn't warrant a source.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 05:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last two sentences on the second paragraph needs refs.
Removed the last sentence about how over half the events are Hold'em, while it is obvious that is the case by looking at the events, I don't think I can find a source that says that. As for the other sentence about counting victories prior to 1976 as bracelets, this is basic knowledge. I mean if you look at the bio for Johnny Moss that is linked in the article, it will show that Johnny Moss has 9 bracelets. 5 of his 9 titles were earned prior to 1976, or before the first bracelet was issued. Calling them bracelets is basic knowledge, asking for a reference to this fact is like asking for a reference that water is compromised of two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 05:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Johnny Chan's second victory in 1988 was featured on the 1998 film Rounders." ref?
Done added ref.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 05:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Phil Hellmuth holds multiple WSOP records, including those for most bracelets (11), WSOP cashes (68) and most WSOP final tables (41)." What does this got to do with the article?
Done Added note that he was the 1989 champion.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The current bracelet winner, Peter Eastgate, is the youngest person to win the Main Event."
    • The current... --> The most recent....
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Could tell how old was he when he won the tournament.
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why do you have to denote players who are dead?
Why is this a bad thing?—Chris! ct 21:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, people often wonder if these players are still alive or dead as many of them are truly legends/poker hall of famers.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Chris, I didn't say it was a bad thing. It's just that the column wasn't related to the article, and I was wondering. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 00:32, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Many poker players have nicknames; sometimes they are better known by their nickname than their real name." sounds like original research.
Removed---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The number of entrants in the Main Event has increased significantly over the years." no need.
Removed---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note that the list is correct as of (date).
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Annette Obrestad note should be noted on her name, not her nickname.
Done moved---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Make the columns on World Series of Poker Europe Main Event the same as the World Series of Poker Main Event table.
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article isn't wikilinked on the Major poker tournaments navbox.
Response Nor should it be, it is not an article on the tournaments, those are already linked, this is a list of winners.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • No categories? Impossible.
Done added---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 21:49, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
-- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 07:20, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support looks good —Chris! ct 03:47, 23 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments by Chrishomingtang

OpposeComments

  • Well, I am pretty much satisfied with the list. But there is one more thing left before I can support. I think the lead should mention that the WSOP is purchased by Harrah's and now held at Rio Casino.—Chris! ct 23:29, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 04:37, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
done Changed all links to PokerPages.com, which actually has a lot more information, but I don't think the coverage is quite as good.
  • Some refs are missing info (eg. publisher and access date) and not format correctly.
done I think I got them all. It was mostly a problem with formatting. Accessed rather than accessdate, Title instead of title. If I missed any let me know.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 09:14, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Almost every items in Notes section have no citation
done References added.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove the nickname column
done See comment above, removing column would not be appropriate here, but added references.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Prose is too short. Consider adding info about who is the first winner, winners with multiple championships or the most recent winner.
Done Expanded significantly---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Further review

  • The "Winnings" and "Prize" columns do not sort correctly
HELP any idea of what I am doing wrong?---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 08:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done figured it out.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 17:10, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Terms used in the list should be consistent
    • N/A or n/a
Done08:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
    • main event or Main Event
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 08:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • WSOP Bracelet or WSOP bracelet
NOTE I did a search on bracelet, and the only time I found it capitalized was in a title of an article and the table header.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 08:04, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Add an emdash to blank cells in the nickname column—Chris! ct 19:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 17:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not done from what I can see—Chris! ct 18:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, now it's done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 19:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed comments related to FLC formatting

P.S. No graphics allowed in FLCs. Remove this message when done please and thank you. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 06:57, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by no graphics?---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 08:49, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Matthewedwards replaced it with the alternate ones. Next time, use {{done-t}} or no graphics at all. This is because graphics will slow down loading time. REMOVE NOW. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 09:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Please remain civil. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 16:42, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I replaced {{done-t}} with "done"'s, becuase we also have to consider template limits. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:11, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For the civil comment, I don't think it was rude in any way to be honest, I just made it bold to make it more clearer. Sorry if you guys have intended it in a wrong way. -- SRE.K.Annoyomous.L.24 review me 08:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. You should add a caption to the lead image. Eklipse (talk) 18:35, 17 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done I had done it before, but the formatting didn't take.
Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC) [reply]
Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)

Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)

  • The lead needs inline citations.
Donecitations added.
  • "Even if the victory occurred before 1976, WSOP championships are now counted as "bracelets"."-->Even WSOP victories that occured before 1976 are now counted as "bracelets".
    • Done Reworded a bit differently, let me know what you think. Giggy (talk) 05:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with the victor receiving a multi-million dollar prize." This kind of sentence construction (noun + -ing) is awkward and ungrammatical. I suggest making it a separate sentence.
  • I echo the comments above about exapanding the lead more. Generally, the lead of a Featured List should provide two main features: an overview of the subject (which you did) and a summary of the list. The summary should include things like how many unique winners there were, who was the first, who was the most recent, who has won the most times, who has earned the most winnings, who won the most bracelets, things like that.
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 07:53, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:ACCESS, the color coding for electees to the Poker Hall of Fame needs an accompanying symbol, such as * or †. See List of Washington Wizards head coaches for an example.
    • Done using a *. Balloonman is welcome to change this if he wants to. Giggy (talk) 05:42, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there a reason that the suits are not provided for the 1971 and 1972 winners?
yes in 71 there was no hand, in 72 the exact cards were not recorded.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 08:05, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The World Series of Poker Europe (WSOPE) is the first expansion effort of World Series of Poker-branded poker tournaments outside of the United States"
  • "outside of Las Vegas."
  • "This made her the youngest person ever to win a WSOP bracelet"-->This made her the youngest person to have won a WSOP bracelet
    • DoneReworded a bit differently, let me know what you think. Giggy (talk) 05:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jamie Gold (2006) is number one on that list. Joe Hachem(2005) is number 3" Make the numbering consistent (number one and number three, or number 1 and number 3). Dabomb87 (talk) 01:16, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could you add an inline citation to this paragraph: "The series culminates with the $10,000 no-limit hold'em "Main Event", which since 2004 has attracted entrants numbering in the thousands. The victor receives a multi-million dollar prize. The winner of World Series of Poker Main Event is considered to be the World Champion of Poker."
    • Done I almost gave up on this, I could find a lot where it called the winner world champion, but nothing that said they were world champion because they won the title... the two are often synonymous. But after looking at about 20 pages, I found one where it explicitly stated that winning the event means winning the title.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 15:12, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved sourcing issues

Sources

  • Newspapers' or magazines' titles in the references should be in italics. If you're using {{cite news}} or {{cite web}}, use the work field for the title of the publication, and the publisher field for the name of the actual company that publishes it.
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 05:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Replaced with WSOP link---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 04:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, the official WSOP website is a good place to find references for each winner. For example, this can be used as reference for Peter Eastgate's profile and this as a general ref.—Chris! ct 21:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Response The WSOP page will give you the players WSOP earnings only, it doesn't include other tournaments such as WPT, EPT, Aussie Millions, US Poker Championships, National Heads Up Champion, or any of the other major tournaments. PokerPages.com won a court case defending their DataBase of Tournament winnings (Other cites, namely the Hendon Mob, were sued for using their data.)---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 05:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, info about other tournaments like WPT are irrelevant for the purpose of this list since this is only about WSOP. And I am not so sure if we need to even worry about getting sue for using the WSOP website as a source since Wikipedia are not a commercial entity.—Chris! ct 06:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That actually makes sense, I'll go through and try to make those changes this evening... which will get rid of most of the Pokerpages entries.---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 17:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloonCSD Survey Results 04:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:38, 21 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Truco

Comments from Truco (talk · contribs)

  • The first WSOP occurred in 1971 was an invitational wherein Benny Binion invited six of the most best known poker players to The Horseshoe Casino. - add " and" before was
  • Participation peaked in 2006, with 8,773 participants. - remove the comma, its not required in this context
  • In 2005, Harrah's Entertainment purchased the rights to the WSOP and have been played at Rio All Suite Hotel and Casino. - this needs rewording to make it clearer that the WSOP is held at the Rio All Suite Hotel
  • The first World Series of Poker was not a freeze-out tournament, but rather an event with a set start and stop time with the winner determined by secret ballot - link/explanation to freeze-out tournament?
  • In 1973, five-card stud was added. - link/explanation to five-card stud per WP:JARGON
  • Since 2007, the WSOP has consisted of 55 events, of which all but the "Main Event" are finished in about a month. - this is in past tense so the are should be "have"
    • Not sure this should be done, the events are still existing. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:55, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yeah, but the tense the sentence is in needs to be consistent throughout, and are is in present tense, "have" says the same thing, its not like "were" is being used. "Have" still says the events are still existing.--TRUCO 01:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • Went ahead and changed it, while they still exist, and presumably that statement will continue to be true, you never know what will happen next year. We can only speak with certainity of past events.---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 01:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The World Series of Poker (WSOP) bracelet is considered the most coveted non-monetary prize a poker player can win. - it is already made known what the acronym means so need to spell it out again
      • Done---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 01:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
        • I'm sorry, I mean't no need to spell it out again.--TRUCO 01:39, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
          • My apologies, I knew what you were asking for, I thought I fixed it, but must have missed it. I knew what you were saying.---Balloonman PoppaBalloon 01:52, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • WSOP victories prior to 1976 are also known as "bracelets". - reword this to "Victories in the WSOP prior to 1976...." because the previous sentence ends in WSOP, which is repetitve
  • The second to last paragraph should be merged with the last paragraph or the paragraph that comes before it because it is not long enough to stand alone as a paragraph
  • The summary paragraph (last one) should state who was the first champion and the most recent one--TRUCO 00:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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