Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of chancellors of Austria/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by PresN via FACBot (talk) 00:27, 16 February 2022 (UTC) [1].[reply]

List of chancellors of Austria[edit]

List of chancellors of Austria (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Colonestarrice (talk) 10:35, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(Re-submission) the reason didn't really change, I just thought I would give it another shot (after more than 2 years). Colonestarrice (talk) 10:35, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comment
  • The {{subst:FLC}} template doesn't seem to be placed on the talk page. And shouldn't this be "archive2"? Even if the first nomination had 'C' capital in 'chancellors'. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 12:48, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I forgot to save the {{subst:FLC}} template, thanks for reminding me. Regarding the page name, I don't know if there are any guidelines or precedents that explain what do to in this case, so I'm just going to leave the decision to the FLC pundits. Colonestarrice (talk) 14:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review (MOS:DTAB)[edit]

  • Tables need captions, which allow screen reader software to jump straight to named tables without having to read out all of the text before it each time. Visual captions can be added by putting |+ caption_text as the first line of the table code; if that caption would duplicate a nearby section header, you can make it screen-reader-only by putting |+ {{sronly|caption_text}} instead.
  • Tables need column scopes for all column header cells, which in combination with row scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Column scopes can be added by adding !scope=col to each header cell, e.g. ! rowspan=1 | Party becomes !scope=col rowspan=1 | Party. (Also, you don't need rowspans if it's a single cell, only if the number would be bigger than 1)
  • Tables need row scopes on the "primary" column for each row, which in combination with column scopes lets screen reader software accurately determine and read out the headers for each cell of a data table. Row scopes can be added by adding !scope=row to each primary cell, e.g. | style="background-color: {{Social Democratic Party of Austria/meta/color}}; color:white;" | 1 becomes !scope=row style="background-color: {{Social Democratic Party of Austria/meta/color}}; color:white;" | 1.
  • Please see MOS:DTAB for example table code if this isn't clear. --PresN 15:59, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 17:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • The images at the top are not captioned clockwise.
  • "up until" doesn't need up
  • assassination should be lowercase
  • No comma after original
  • "People's and the Social Democratic Party" missing a "Party"
  • The next sentence is a comma splice
  • "Five parties" instead of "The following"
  • Should be an "and" after the final comma of that sentence
  • The First Republic section is lacking the key the Second has...
  • And the key should include what the abbreviations are short for...(give both the German and English there)
  • Since the color signifies party, it should background the party cells, not the number cells
  • Columns should be sortable
  • The party column should be between the election and coalition columns; this isn't the most important content that should be on the far left: that's who the person is!
  • The notes for Renner and Mayr would be more relevant in the Tenure cell
  • The lead says "Arthur Seyss-Inquart was the shortest serving chancellor with 2 days in office." but Walter Breisky's term is a single day.
  • Similar to List of chancellors of Germany, perhaps link the governments like Second Schober government and First Kurz government with the coalitions. Those without articles link to the respective section on the chancellor's article.
  • Refs: Site name is Republic of Austria Parliament not the url.
  • Is there a source for the numbers? E.g. that Karl Renner didn't get one in 1945, making Figl #1? That Kurz's second term is (13) again, so Schallenberg gets #15? That they were restarted for the Second Republic? All reasonable but I don't want this to be OR
  • With that, if Renner isn't numbered, is his photo caption in the lead as being the first correct? (and being a provisional chancellor isn't mentioned in the lead)
  • The "living former chancellors" section should be removed. Both the main table and the statistics table denote the living chancellors, and this is redundant.
  • "Oldest living chancellors" is mere trivia and I don't see the purpose of this, which can also be deduced from the stats table.

Reywas92Talk 17:45, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Partly done.
"The First Republic section is lacking the key the Second has..."
"And the key should include what the abbreviations are short for...(give both the German and English there)"
I've removed the keys completely (except for the "denotes acting" part), as the parties are already included and linked in the table, and their full names are mentioned in the lead.
No, you can't have unexplained abbreviations even if they're linked; these need to be written out somewhere because their full names are not mentioned in the lead because they're German abbreviations but the lead gives English names.
"Is there a source for the numbers? E.g. that Karl Renner didn't get one in 1945, making Figl #1? That Kurz's second term is (13) again, so Schallenberg gets #15? That they were restarted for the Second Republic? All reasonable but I don't want this to be OR"
I'm glad that you addressed that, because someone re-added succession numbers to the table; succession numbers are not used in Austria, this has been discussed multiple times.
"Since the color signifies party, it should background the party cells, not the number cells"
I've restored the original table design without succession numbers; now there is just a plain, colored line, which exists to complement the party cells. I believe adding colored backgrounds to the party cells would be a bit "visually intense", and some readers might not be able spot blue links with a turquoise background.
Agree that that colored line looks nicer and is becoming more standard
"The party column should be between the election and coalition columns; this isn't the most important content that should be on the far left: that's who the person is!"
The color and party columns are very small; I think having them on the left makes orientation easier for readers. But if you insist, I will change it.
Looking through the other leader FLs and more in Europe, while many keep the narrow color column on the left for orientation, the party is consistently to the right, which makes sense because as a list of chancellors, the chancellors themselves should go first. It's seems pretty redundant though, since except for Schober the chancellor's party is always listed first in the government parties. Maybe remove the party column altogether but then bold their party in the government column?
"Similar to List of chancellors of Germany, perhaps link the governments like Second Schober government and First Kurz government with the coalitions. Those without articles link to the respective section on the chancellor's article."
I would like to, but the vast majority of cabinets neither have any articles of their own, nor associated sections on the articles of their leaders (i.e. the chancellors).
"Refs: Site name is Republic of Austria Parliament not the url."
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
The references have "website=www.parlament.gv.at" but you should give the actual name, not url. Better to use "publisher=Republic of Austria Parliament" instead.
– Colonestarrice (talk) 20:08, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
"The lead says "Arthur Seyss-Inquart was the shortest serving chancellor with 2 days in office." but Walter Breisky's term is a single day."
I'm sorry, for some reason the list didn't mention that: Breisky was acting chancellor and thus excluded from the calculation. But if necessary, I can still mention him in the lead.
The background added is good. Though User:Kramler/Kurz is not the 25th chancellor make me wonder if Seyss-Inquart should even count either since the Parliament doesn't include him, maybe skip that stat? Reywas92Talk 15:24, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
– Colonestarrice (talk) 20:21, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Partly done. (I also found a parliament source for Seyss-Inquart.) The colored line supplements the party column, if the column was to be moved somewhere else it would kind of lose its purpose. Pages like list of presidents of the United States also do not put the person on the far-left. I think having the chancellors centre-left, highlights them more than having them on the far-left. Colonestarrice (talk) 08:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Drive-by comment
  • Per MOS:COLORCODING, you can't use just colour to indicate the acting chancellors. You either need to also use a symbol, or maybe in this case actually put (acting) after the dates of office -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 06:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 07:46, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
More comments
  • "Kreisky is known as one of the world's perhaps most successful socialist leaders" => "Kreisky is known as perhaps one of the world's most successful socialist leaders". Also such a bold claim needs a source
  • "Following Dollfuss's Assassination" - assassination is not a proper noun so it should not have a capital A
  • "Arthur Seyss-Inquart was the shortest serving chancellor with only 2 days in office." - Breisky also appears to have served for two days. He may have only been acting, but he still served
  • Actually, didn't Seyss-Inquart serve for three days (11-13 March)......?
  • The name column should sort based on surname, not forename (this applies to both tables)
  • The tenure column does not sort correctly
  • Any reason why the assumed/left office columns in the second table are not sortable whereas all the others are?
  • Ref 57 is a footnote and should be formatted like the other footnotes
  • That's what I got -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I see that you have removed the sortability function from the tenure column altogether. That now means that if you sort the table on a different column it's literally impossible to get back to the original order. Not really ideal....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, but the thing is that the main table was created with the intention of being unsortable; more than half of all columns weren't designed for sorting, and the cells that span more than one row, mess up the whole table once you start sorting anyways. If readers want to sort chancellors by name, birth date, term of office and so on, they can use the statistics table which was made for that exact purpose. Colonestarrice (talk) 09:31, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Well in that case you should make the main table completely unsortable. It doesn't really work to have a table which is essentially a timeline but then if you re-sort in any way you can't get back to showing the timeline in chronological order...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:54, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 11:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The statistics table is not sortable either...while the date of birth properly uses {dts}, assumed office uses {start date}, which sorts numerically by day. Left office does the same. If you just use dts in the main table, it will be properly sortable as well. The numbering in the stats table should also be removed just as above. Reywas92Talk 15:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 18:01, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - apologies for forgetting to come back! :-P -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:56, 7 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Kavyansh[edit]

  • "of the Austrian Republic" — "Austrian Republic" redirects to Austria. Why not just write "Austria" instead of "Austrian Republic"?
  • " – the first federal chancellor" — should start this in a new sentence
  • "Ten chancellors served" — avoid starting a sentence by a number
If you have any suggestions on how to rephrase the sentence, I would welcome them with open arms. Colonestarrice (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"There have been ten chancellors who have served ..." – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by Austrian National Socialists" — would "by Austrian Nazis" be better?
I'm gonna be honest here, "Austrian Nazis" doesn't have a very encyclopaedic tone to it. Colonestarrice (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Schuschnigg in turn was" — I'd remove "in turn"
  • "Reich Commissioner Josef Bürckel" — avoid linking two adjacent words
  • "After the liberation of Vienna and the dissolution of Nazi Germany, Austria reinstated its republican form of government." — which year? specify.
  • "However, the country remained under allied occupation until 1955 and thus the country's ultimate" — "the country" could/should be replaced by "Austria"
  • "the People's Party and the Social Democratic Party have largely dominated Austrian politics. The People's Party/" — "People's Party" should be linked in its first instance.
  • same comment as above for "Social Democratic Party"
  • "Seven parties never held ..." — avoid starting a sentence by a number
Same as above. Colonestarrice (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"There have been seven parties which never held ..." – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "resigns or is" — comma after 'resigns'
  • "If the president in turn dies, resigns or is otherwise incapacitated, the chancellor" — this is repetition of "If the president in turn dies, resigns or is otherwise incapacitated". Could be write it as "In event of vacancy in chancellor's office"?
  • Not a major issue, but can we arrange the key for parties in a manner similar to United States presidential elections in the District of Columbia#Presidential elections?
  • Okay, so we also had a chancellor changes after this list was nominated. Interesting!
  • Fix the disambiguation links for parties in the row of Wolfgang Schüssel and Werner Faymann
They're intentional and unfortunately I don't really see a workaround here (but I'm open to suggestions). Colonestarrice (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Now I understood, fine. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the any reliable source which discusses "List of chancellors of Austria by age/age at assuming office/longevity/age at retirement/death/lifespan?? If not, I feel that the entire "Statistics" section in WP:LC. It is merely statistics, and Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Feel free to disagree. I just want to know your point-of-view.
  • A nice majority of sources is from "Republic of Austria Parliament", which is a primary source. Are there no books/other secondary sources which discuss this topic?
While the chancellery's website obviously is, I'm not really sure if Parliament is a primary source according to WP:PRIMARY's definition of what constitutes a primary source. Anyways, I still checked and ironically the only think I found were more primary sources. Colonestarrice (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I initial concern was that there much be few scholar sources which are consider secondary and more reliable sources. But I am not gonna persist this issue, accepting the fact that sourcing requirment criteria for FLs is significantly lower than FAs. Also, in the "www.britannica.com" sources, I'dwrite it as "Britannica". I'll also remove 'www.' in other website works. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

– Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 11:21, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The rest is  Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 13:03, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks much better. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 19:03, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 19:42, 6 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley[edit]

  • "After the Allies declined a union between Austria and Germany." "declined" does not seem the right word. Maybe "vetoed"?
  • The lead is strong on history but weak on explaining the powers of the chancellor and the method of election at different periods. You refer to appointment at the beginning, periods of dictatorship and an elected chancellor. How were they chosen in the inter-war period? Were elections abolished during periods of dictatorship? Are they now elected by first past the post or alternative vote? What specific powers does the chancellor have? Does he appoint the vice chancellor and the cabinet? Can parliament dismiss his ministers?
  • Note b. "The chancellor is appointed by the president of Austria." I assume this only referred to one period and it would avoid confusion if you changed "is" to "was".
  • In view of the large areas of white space in the table, you might consider spelling out the names of the parties instead of using abbreviations. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:28, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I refined the lead and I hope that the new prose now satisfies your first point. The lead does not elaborate on the powers of the chancellor because the office is vested with almost no power. The chancellor is purely know as the leader of the government. The chancellor is appointed by the president, who by convention picks the nominee of the largest party in Parliament. Legislative elections and cabinet formations are very complicated things in Austria, so I wouldn't want to go in on this here. As history has substantially reshaped the office over time and the page covers mostly historical officeholders, I focused on the historical aspects in the lead to give the list more context. Readers can always find out more about the office and elections in Austria by visiting the respective standalone articles.
In view of the large areas of white space in the table, you might consider spelling out the names of the parties instead of using abbreviations - unfortunately, I think that names like "National Socialist German Worker's Party" or "Social Democratic Workers' Party of Austria" are a bit too long. Colonestarrice (talk) 15:55, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I overlooked the statement at the beginning that the chancellor is appointed and saw the reference to an elected chancellor below. This seems a contradiction which needs explanation. The facts that president picks the leader of the largest party by convention and that the office has almost no power should be stated. Who picks the vice chancellor and ministers? This should be covered. Dudley Miles (talk) 18:12, 27 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Colonestarrice (talk) 18:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, Looks fine now. Dudley Miles (talk) 12:22, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passed; promoting. --PresN 15:24, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FLC/ar, and leave the {{featured list candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through.
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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