Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of heads of government of the Central African Republic and Central African Empire

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by User:The Rambling Man 07:10, 4 July 2008 [1].

List of heads of government of the Central African Republic and Central African Empire[edit]

This list is based on List of heads of state of the Central African Republic and Central African Empire. Enjoy! Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 20:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I really enjoy lists like these, keep up the good work. Here are a few comments to start with. I wish you luck on your nominations and I will probably support once these are addressed.

- Please don't write centreafricain with a capital c, just like in your other list I reviewed here at flc.

Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- In the table, either write both "territorial autonomy" and "Independent" with a capital letter or not.

Capitalized. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- You should probably add ", Prime Minister" to the name of David Dacko in the table.

Done. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Could you create an article for Operation Barracuda? I noticed it in your other list too.

This is on my to-do list. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Since there are just two red links, I would recommend you create articles for both the "Operation Barracuda" and "Civic forum".

Same as above. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- I am somewhat confused about the latter. In the notes section of Malendoma I read "Democratic Forum". Am I correct the Democratic Forum and the Civic Forum (capital f?) are the same party? If not, please explain.

They're not. It's weird, but Malendoma founded the Democratic Forum, but ran as a candidate of the Civic Forum party in elections. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- I wonder if the term "Nonpartisan" is American. I only know it as a military term and have never heard someone use it in European politics (I am Dutch). Do you know any alternatives?

Independent is frequently used as an alternative, but it's not the same. Nonpartisan usually means that the person hasn't declared a political affiliation. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- "prime minister" in the notes section of Élie Doté should be "Prime Minister".

Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Why is "September 2006" wikilinked? The reshuffle apparantly wasn't notable enough to be mentioned in this particular article. I would remove this link and just use [[September 3]], [[2006]]. This makes note 38 completely redundant. Also, I don't think "Central Africa" should be used to refer to the country, Uganda and Congo (to name two) are also in Central Africa.

Ref 38 was actually AFP press report, but I messed up one of the parameters. Also, link to September 2006 removed. I think I had copied that link over from Doté's article. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Why was Domitien removed from office?

Added. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Koyambounou has been in office for almost a year and two months. Nothing to comment on?

Nothing significant during his term (as far as I can see in LexisNexis). I did include a bit about his prior occupation. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Same goes for Dacko's first term and the second term of Patassé. - I think it's worth a mention that Doté has served the longest term of all.

Added to image caption. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Two footnote links don't work: C and I. It's always a good idea to check those.

Fixed. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Note that you put a footnote in front of a reference in this article. Like here: "October 22, 1993[I][12]". You do the opposite in your list List of Sultans of Zanzibar: "(..) or 1840,[2][A] Sa'id (..)". Please be consistent.

I did that on sultans because [2] was a reference for "1840", while [A] is a note regarding the inconsistency with dates. I didn't want to have [A][2] because it wouldn't make sense to the reader. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:49, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- Where are the accessdates?
Baldrick90 (talk) 22:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Weird, I couldn't get the accessdates to work before, so I thought they didn't work on {{citation}}. It looks like I had this problem because I included an accessdate for a non-URL citation. :) Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 23:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Good! TONY (talk) 04:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC) Criteria 2 (info in lead woefully inadequate) and 6 (visual appeal lacking in shambolic column widths).[reply]

  • (1) Essential information: is it a representative democracy? How do these people become PM/president? Is there an assembly? Just a few sentences filling in the context from a mechanistic point of view is important. And parties are mentioned in the key and the table, but the lead has to foreground this: has policy ever been at issue, or is it all personality-based, stab-in-the-back stuff? If it has been a contest between colonialists and independence promoters, or between landowners/corporations and other societal interests, please tell us IN THE LEAD. At the moment, it's just a mystery and a collection of meaningless names and parties. Not featured stuff.
    • The Central African Republic is a republic. They hold elections, both presidential and legislative. But this doesn't appear to have been stated, still. TONY (talk) 04:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC) The President names the Prime Minister and I believe the National Assembly votes on the candidate (not sure about this, I'll check). The parties differentiate in their ideologies. MESAN was the ruling party for decades before other parties were allowed to enter the political scene (most of this happened during President Kolingba's rule in the 1980s). I'll add these details. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 13:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • (2) Tons of horizontal space wasted in the second and third columns, and then the Notes column squashes large amounts of text into many many lines, thus creating wasted vertical space in the table. Need to do some width "forcing".
  • (3) Too many words in the "Notes" column. Start by removing the names from each opening, since they are entirely redundant. Use the stubby grammar of note-form, like this:

Founder of the MESAN party;[1] negotiated for the independence of Oubangui-Chari and named the country the "Central African Republic".

Not this:

Boganda was the founder of the MESAN party.[1] He also negotiated for the independence of Oubangui-Chari and named the country the "Central African Republic".

Notice that I've removed the redundant "also". The subsequent "also" is required, though. TONY (talk) 04:03, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)
  • I don't think the section heading "List of Prime Ministers of the Central African Republic and Central African Empire" is strictly necessary given the nature of the article (i.e. we already know it's a list of heads of government of the CAR etc etc etc) so just "List of Prime Ministers" would suffice.
  • Heads of governement, heads of state, Prime Minister - these seem to be used interchangeably, can we be more consistent. I find it a little confusing.
  • Any reason why the names are bold?
  • And why is "Prime Minister" repeated in every row (apart from the acting Prime Minister which could be added to the notes column)?
  • Consider merging the tables. You can add a colspan'ed row for changes of the name of the country. This would then alleviate the repetitive heading rows. Also, getting rid of "Prime Minister" from the name col, squeezing the Entered/Left office columns up, you can make the Notes column wider which will reduce the length of the table. Particularly if you follow Tony's advice on making the notes more note-like.

The Rambling Man (talk) 09:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

    • Tables merged, removed "Prime Minister" from name column, width reduced in second and third columns, notes column wider. I'm simplifying the notes, as well. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 13:05, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments I have to disagree with you Rambling Man. A table merged like this one is terrible to look at. Please have another look at List of heads of state of the Central African Republic and Central African Empire. Now tell me, which is clearer? Isn't that what a table is supposed to be? I would really opt for the same layout in both CAR lists, like this:

  1. Prime Ministers of the Central African Republic (1960–1976)
  2. Prime Ministers of the Central African Empire (1976–1979)
  3. Prime Ministers of the Central African Republic (since 1979)
  • Please check the colour codes of both lists. In the presidents list, the nonpartisans have a different colour. While you're at it, wikilink "Nonpartisan" in the Bozizé row.
  • Thanks for clearing up the Civic/Democratic forum issue. I do however think it would be best to leave it out. Apparantly the Democratic Forum has no article here on wp and we aren't told anything about its significance. It's also confusing, not just the similar name but also the fact he founded it in 1990 and became pm in 1992. Why did he abandon the party he founded? In this context it adds only confusion, I would suggest leaving it out or adding relevant information, either in this notes section or by creating an article for the Democratic Forum. Baldrick90 (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, that seems like the best thing to do here. Kalck (2005) only mentions Democratic Forum in passing. There's nothing else written about it. Nishkid64 (Make articles, not wikidrama) 21:43, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I see that Rambling Man suggested to rename the section to "List of Prime Ministers", but I actually think "Heads of government" would be a better section title; I especially dislike having the words "List of" in a section title. The question that should be asked is whether or not the section is about Prime Ministers (or Heads of government), and if it is, then simply state that, rather than preceding it with "List of". Gary King (talk) 04:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Baldrick90

  • It strikes me you use so many French language sources and yet do not claim any knowledge of the language on your userpage. I decided to randomly check out one French link (ref 35) and believe you may not understand it sufficiently. The article says he was 'directeur général' of the UBAC. This does not (necessarily) refer to the BDEAC and BMPC. By the way, the correct spelling would be director-general and not director general. The following sentence tells an interesting fact: Gaombalet was fired (French: limogé - this means breaking up (as in a relationship) and is used here informally and metaphorically) by general and president Kolingba in 1981, just after he became president. Then we are told he worked for the BDEAC in the Republic of the Congo (his function is not mentioned) and he returned to the CAR in the early nineties to 'dirige' (lead, direct) the BMPC (again, we don't know his function, he could be the CEO or just be a member of the executive board, I suggest you leave out the function and just say he lead the BMPC).
  • If you want any help translating French sources you can always ask me (I learned French in grammar school) but ofcourse it would be best to contact a native speaker.
  • Please have a look at the article on Célestin Gaombalet. It translates 'La Banque de Développement des Etats de l’Afrique Centrale' as 'Development Bank of Central African States'. You translate BDEAC as such: 'Central African States Development Bank'. I think there should be one translation used. I have found the official translation here (see section 'ACRONYMS AND ABBREVIATIONS'). It should be 'Development Bank of Central African States'.
  • His full name is 'Célestin-Leroy Gaombalet'. Your article says 'Le Roi'. I presume you know that translates as 'The King'. You are correct phonetically :-).
  • Also note that if you use his full name, it should be 'Célestin-Leroy'. That dash is used in most sources referring to him, including a lot of reliable sources such as Amnesty and the website of the European Union. It should be noted that a lot of reliable sources do not include the dash. Célestin Leroy Gaombalet has 1490 google hits, Célestin-Leroy Gaombalet 2040. What do you make of it? Baldrick90 (talk) 15:17, 20 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

  • Please don't open with "This is a complete list of the heads of government of the Central African Republic and Central African Empire." You need to engage the reader, rather than repeat the title of the article

Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 05:52, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The image at the top of the article seems unnecessarily large. I suggest adding the upright parameter to the thumbnail specs, as follows: [[Image:Elie Dote.jpg|right|thumb|upright|Former Prime Minister [[Élie Doté]] has served the longest of all Prime Ministers of the Central African Republic (2005–2008).]] --Orlady (talk) 00:25, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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