Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of heads of state of the Soviet Union/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 18:18, 17 February 2011 [1].

List of heads of state of the Soviet Union[edit]

List of heads of state of the Soviet Union (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): --TIAYN (talk) 20:00, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I feel this list meets the FL criteria. And please either support or oppose the list; I don't want the list to fail because of lack of reviewer interest.

Doing Sp33dyphil (Talk) (Contributions)(Feed back needed @ Talk page) 06:53, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why? --TIAYN (talk) 17:09, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Why is the right table so odd and so much space above, why not just merge into one table, like here, with an extra column "Vice president"-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 18:08, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Because there were no vice heads of state before 1977, that's why the header is not located at the start. Even if i did include it at the top header box, what would i do with all the none-existing posts? It's much easier this way, or at least I think it's much easier this way. --TIAYN (talk) 18:25, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
You need to have something at the top. When I do governor lists and have a state which didn't have a lieutenant governor for a long time, at the top I still say "Lieutenant Governor" with a footnote explaining that the post didn't exist until 19xx. --Golbez (talk) 21:50, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Done --TIAYN (talk) 22:07, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Arsenikk (talk) 18:40, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
;Comments:

I, and probably many with me, find the topic of Soviet statesmanship rather confusing, with steady changes to the titles and positions. The article starts off with discussing the definition of the head of state since 1977. Perhaps a softer start would be better, such as saying eleven people have been head of state and four vice. Then discuss the various offices which were regarded as such. I also find that the lead overfocuses on the presidency (which lasted only a year) and less mention is given to the older positions. Presenting the various offices chronologically would also be appreciated.

  • Done Why is Vasili Kuznetsov not numbered? This needs to be explained somehow.
    • Fixed: he was an acting heads of state. --TIAYN (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps my knowledge of Soviet affairs is very limited, but I must admit that I have always been under the presumption that both Lenin and Stalin were heads of state, not just heads of government. Of course, this is very naïve of me, but perhaps the lead should mention something of what the difference between the premier and the head of state.
  • Explained Why was there no head of state the first five years?
  • Done Under convocations, you've used emdashes instead of endashes for ranges.
  • Done Cells lacking images need an emdash.
  • Any possibilities of cropping File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-24000-0472, Berlin, IV. SED-Parteitag.jpg? Zoom in on his face and leave the rest out.
I don't know how to do that... --TIAYN (talk) 07:15, 13 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There might be some more, but as I've basically asked you to rephrase part of the lead, I'll wait that before doing a copyedit of it. Overall, it seems like you're getting the hang of listmaking :) Arsenikk (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The lead is better, so I'll be a bit more specific:

  • Done The first sentence is very confusing, as it would initially seem that the Soviet Union only has had heads of state after 1977. It is also a bit confusing because it only half defines the subject—it fails to say who holds the seat, it just states the obvious.
  • Done Very early on you have "...head of state. There have been eleven heads of state. Of the individuals appointed heads of state,..." [my emphasis]. Repetitiveness gets rather weary on the reader.
  • Done Perhaps move the second paragraph higher up, and state deaths-in-office and the like further down.
  • Done Normally it is better to include prose outside of a parenthesis, such as "(reorganized in 1938)" and please avoid double parenthesis.
  • Explained When speaking about soviets in plural, use lower-caps
    • Not when its part of a name. --TIAYN (talk) 15:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done Early in the third paragraph, use a semicolon in front of "however".
  • Done All words in the following should be lower caps: "First Vice and the fifteen other Vice Chairmens"
  • Done "1977 Soviet Constitution" is linked twice
  • Done One "be" too much in the first sentence of the fourth paragraph
  • Done How was the head of state appointed? Elected by the Supreme Soviet?
    • It is already in the article! The chairman, and the rest of the Presidium, were elected by the Deputies of the Supreme Soviet. The Presidency was elected by the Congress of People's Deputies. --TIAYN (talk) 15:08, 18 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Arsenikk (talk) 22:37, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:28, 19 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comments (and I won't !vote because you ask, I'll decide when I want)
  • Done "There have been eleven heads ..." sounds like it's still current but I determine, from the infobox that the position no longer exists, so "There were eleven..." is more accurate.
  • Done "Of the individuals appointed heads of state, three of them died in office of natural causes (Leonid Brezhnev, Yuri Andropov and Konstantin Chernenko), two acting (Vasili Kuznetsov and Gennady Yanayev), and four held posts of party leader and head of state simultaneously (Brezhnev, Andropov, Chernenko and Mikhail Gorbachev)." this doesn't make sense. "..., two acting ..."? Perhaps "..., two held the position in a temporary role" or something else.
  • Done "Andropov spent the shortest time in office" Oddly positioned sentence in between two which discuss Kalinin. In fact, the previous sentence (the "..died of...") is also out of place. You should discuss the first appointee in detail before moving on to factoids about the others...
  • Done " it had very little de facto ones." do you mean very "few"?
  • Done What's a "convocation"? Link?
  • Done Non-english references should use the language= parameter.

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment My screen view the table a little bit false. (I'll try to explain :P) in the sixth row there is a small line that goes to the "Vice heads of state" column a little bit, but not entire. The right border doesn't comprise the table completely and if I scroll down and up, the pitch between the border end and the column border is variable large. And in the last row in the second table half there is a white space between the column header "Vice President (1990–1991)" and "Vacant 15 March 1990 – 27 December 1990". Could you fix this problems, please? I don't know if all screens view this like mine. Thank you.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 22:49, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I would, but there is one problem, I don't understand what the problem is! --TIAYN (talk) 23:03, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I fixed it. But I question the need for a lot of the styling... why not let the browser and standard sheets do their work? :) --Golbez (talk) 21:36, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment once again this nomination appears to have stalled. TIAYN, have you notified the various relevant wikiprojects that this nomination needs input, reviews, opinions? If we don't see some movement soon I think we'll need to archive the nomination. Let me know. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:23, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support -- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 18:38, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - Would it be easier to split off the Vice head into its own table? the huge Rowspan just looks terribly unprofessional. Afro (Talk) 18:41, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You use Rowspan with the change of the title of the office I was thinking whether it'd be better to provide a note in the term of office row in the first column this new title is given. Afro (Talk) 12:34, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I must admit, I don't understand your point. --TIAYN (talk) 17:44, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry if my comment isn't clear enough, what I mean is you use the rowspan to designate when the name of the office was changed, I was wondering whether it'd be better to explain these in notes. Afro (Talk) 20:14, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm still in the black here, do you mean to replace the title headers? If so no, I'm opposed to that idea. Second, I just this method on the recently List of Premiers of the Soviet Union article, which you supported, so I don't understand why you are opposed to the headers. Thirdly, have I miss intepret your comment? --TIAYN (talk) 13:13, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm just floating around the idea, I'm not opposed as such, just thought I would put out an idea if it might improve the article, but since its been shot down lets move on. WP:LEAD#Length suggests the lead should be no longer than 4 paragraphs. Afro (Talk) 14:52, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I have no issues with the article. Afro (Talk) 18:10, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

some comments on the footnotes/citations:

Use 13-digit ISBNs, if available, as these are now standard as of January 1, 2007 and issued to new books.
Use dashes if they are included, as they divide the number into meaningful parts; the placement of dashes varies between books."
  • some news articles are missing bylines. in the absence of a byline, one can put "staff writer" so the reader knows that the byline was not forgotten when preparing citations.
  • what are credentials of "sssr.ru" and "Hrono.ru? (currently footnotes #22 and #31, respectively). are there wikipedia articles on these websites?--96.232.126.111 (talk) 23:28, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

comment on accessibility:

  • WP:ALT discusses the need for "alt" text for images for those using screen readers (or users on platforms that do not offer images).--96.232.126.111 (talk) 23:28, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Regardless of how poorly you regard the statements, it's extremely poor form to remove someone else's civil comments, especially from your own nomination. If they're worthy of removal, certainly someone else will do it. --Golbez (talk) 17:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Agreed, I replaced them. TIAYN, it's far better to respond to the comments rather than simply delete them. And actually, they don't seem at all unreasonable. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 9 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: After fixing a couple of errors and Russian in the article, it looks okay to go to me. Might be a good idea to split the currently rather big lead into subsections dedicated to each of the listed head of state groups, i.e. "Chairman of the CEC" (most of the second para), "Chairman of the Presidium" (last sentence of the second para and all of the third), "President" (last para). --illythr (talk) 16:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support... I don't really see the point in breaking the list into sections, It would over-complicate things. Of course, If you could show me a version of it in a sandbox I may reconsider. --TIAYN (talk) 13:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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