Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Michael Jackson videography/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Matthewedwards 01:50, 24 August 2009 [1].

Michael Jackson videography[edit]

Nominator(s): Pyrrhus16 18:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

I am nominating this for featured list because I believe it now meets the FL criteria, having had a helpful peer review from User:Finetooth. Pyrrhus16 18:50, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs) Much improved.
  • "The popularity of his music videos that aired on MTV, such as "Beat It", "Billie Jean" and Thriller" Why are two video names in quotes, while another is in italics? Also, can you pipe link to the sections in the articles about their music video?
  • The format was copied from the main Michael Jackson article. As the wikilinks for "Billie Jean" and "Beat It" are to the song articles, they are in quotes. Thriller is italicised because it links to the article on the film as opposed to the song. Should I change this? Pyrrhus16 17:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "produce (in dollars per minute) on its release"-->produce (in dollars per minute) at the time of its release (I assume that's what you mean)
  • "four separate characters"
  • "Several of the actor's feature films have been released onto home video. All of them have been certified by bodies such as the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and the Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA)."-->Several of the actor's feature films have been released onto home video, all of which have been certified by [be more elaborate than "bodies"] bodies such as the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and the Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA).
  • "Jackson's short films became as influential as his music." A pretty big claim, no cite?
  • "His Off the Wall era videos"-->His Off the Wall–era videos
  • "The videos from Thriller are considered the most important of Jackson's career, aiding the album's record breaking sales." Hyphen between "record" and "breaking". This is also a big claim; can you cite it?
  • "they initially refused; they felt black music wasn't "rock" enough"-->they initially refused, feeling that black music wasn't "rock" enough
  • Inline cite right after the quote please.
  • I doubt that animation needs to be linked.
  • "Videos released in this period also continued "
  • "Foden commented" Comma after here.
  • "while Thriller later collected a world record"-->and Thriller later collected a world recor
  • In the image captions, it's not clear what the dashes mean. Were the people directors of the videos?
  • Yes, they were. Should I remove the videos from the captions? Pyrrhus16 17:31, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not necessary; you just need to reword the caption. For example, "Steve Barron – "Billie Jean"" could be "Steve Barron, director of "Billie Jean"" Dabomb87 (talk) 15:27, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reworded them all. Thanks. Pyrrhus16 15:42, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Jackson was dedicated to the role, and watched videotapes of gazelles, cheetahs and panthers in order to learn graceful movements for his part." Remove "in order". None of the animals' names need linking.
  • "Jones would later produce three hit albums for Jackson"-->Jones later produced three hit albums for Jackson
  • Michael Jackson's performance as the Scarecrow was received positively, with critics noting that he possessed "genuine acting talent" and "provided the only genuinely memorable moments."-->Michael Jackson's performance as the Scarecrow was received positively; critics noted that he possessed "genuine acting talent" and that he "provided the only genuinely memorable moments". (note that the period is outside the quotation mark)
  • "my greatest experience so far...I'll never forget that." Per MOS, we put spaces on either side of the ellipses.
  • "portrayed by Anjelica Huston." Add "who was" before this.
  • "(in dollars per-minute) upon its release."-->(in dollars per minute) at the time of its release.
  • "In another Jackson-created film" For some reason, "produced" or "directed" sounds better than "created". Maybe that's just the terminology, though.
  • "Having turned down an offer to star in Men in Black, Jackson played Agent M in its sequel, Men in Black II."-->Although he turned down an offer to star in Men in Black, Jackson played Agent M in its sequel, Men in Black II.
  • "In 2004, Jackson made a cameo appearance in Miss Cast Away. He played Agent MJ, a parody of his role in Men in Black II."-->In 2004, Jackson made a cameo appearance in Miss Cast Away; he played Agent MJ, a parody of his role in Men in Black II.
  • "Jackson wrote the song "Happy Birthday Lisa" for the episode, which was later included in the album Songs in the Key of Springfield."-->The song "Happy Birthday Lisa" was written by Jackson for the episode, and was later included in the album Songs in the Key of Springfield.
  • "One of Michael Jackson's conditions" Why do you use his first name all of a sudden?
  • "While he recorded the voice work for the character, all of his singing was performed by Kipp Lennon, because Jackson "-->Although he recorded the voice work for the character, his singing was performed by Kipp Lennon, because Jackson
  • "Jackson has released several DVDs, some having originally been released on VHS"-->Jackson has released several DVDs, of which some were originally released on VHS
  • "Outside of the U.S" Dabomb87 (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I think that the music video and filmography tables should be made sortable. The filmography will be straightforward, but the music video table will need some work. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:11, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've done the filmography table, which was straightforward like you said. I've no idea how to sort the music video table; I've been using the 'show preview' button, and nothing seems to work. Do you know of any similar sortable tables that I can base the formatting off? Pyrrhus16 15:08, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, the music video table will take work. You need to make individual year rows for each video. Also, you need to use {{sortname}} when sorting people's names. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:10, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, individual year rows. I'll get to work on that now. I'll add the {{sortname}} template as well. Pyrrhus16 15:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, for the Moonwalker video, it certified 4× platinum in Canada (source, but you only have it as gold. Why is that? Dabomb87 (talk) 15:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I must have accidentally been looking at the certification for something else. I'll go fix it. Pyrrhus16 15:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Also, what makes Artistdirect a reliable source? Dabomb87 (talk) 15:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
They have been described as "the premier Internet resource for music and entertainment news" by Bloomberg.com, and work in partnership with EMI Music Publishing, a big name publisher. The company has been cited as a source by publications/companies such as The Kansas City Star, MTV, and BusinessWeek. Pyrrhus16 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You need to use sortname for the music video directors, too. Also, because the table is sortable, you have to link the directors' names on every occurence. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:23, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Will do that now. Pyrrhus16 16:25, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Does the {{sortname}} template need removed from the redlinks, or is it fine like that? Pyrrhus16 16:41, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I added nolink=1 to suppress the red links. However, if any of those people are notable enough, I suggest that you remove the link so that someone will create those articles.
Thanks for that. Pyrrhus16 16:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For the Chicago Tribune links, you need to make a note that payment is required to access the full article. Use this code in the templates: format=Payment required to access full article Dabomb87 (talk) 16:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Pyrrhus16 16:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
For the Dangerous video's Argentine charting, I couldn't find anything about its certification in the source. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:27, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
About its certification? The platinum coloured circle in the "Galardones" column signifies its certification. Pyrrhus16 17:35, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, missed that! Dabomb87 (talk) 17:47, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unless I missed something, Video Greatest Hits – HIStory was 2× multi-platinum, see source Dabomb87 (talk) 17:53, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. Pyrrhus16 09:04, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Searched again, and it does say 5× platinum for Video Greatest Hits – HIStory. Pyrrhus16 16:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Right, I see it now. The "Book 1" thing confused me. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Video Greatest Hits – HIStory again: 2× Platinum in Austria, not Gold (source) Dabomb87 (talk) 20:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
That must be the album again; it says Gold for me. Pyrrhus16 14:23, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It would help if you told the readers what exactly to type in for each source so that we don't find apparent discrepancies. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Pyrrhus16 13:10, 23 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 15:46, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Ref 64, there's a double period after the author's name.
  • Spell out all abbreviations in the publishers. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done. Thank you for your comments. :) Pyrrhus16 17:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note FLC is currently short of reviewers; please consider reviewing one or more on the nomination list if you have not already (this message is being posted to all running FLCs). Dabomb87 (talk) 23:23, 14 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Truco
Comments from Truco
General
  • Dabs, external links, and alt text all check out fine.
Lead
  • In the early 1980s, Jackson became a dominant figure in popular culture and the first African-American entertainer to amass a strong crossover following on Music Television (MTV). -- 1)Is the dash really needed in African American? I don't think so. 2)I don't quite understand that to amass a strong crossover following on Music Television (MTV) [mainly the following on MTV part]
  • 1) Removed the dash. 2) I've reworded to have a strong crossover fanbase on Music Television (MTV). Hopefully that makes it more clear. Pyrrhus16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Music videos
  • When Walter Yetnikoff, the president of Jackson's record label, CBS, approached MTV chiefs to play the "Billie Jean" video in the early 1980s, they initially refused, feeling that black music wasn't "rock" enough. -- The CBS part stands out, what do you mean by it?
  • I've removed the comma preceeding CBS and placed the company in brackets, to make it clear that CBS were his record label. Pyrrhus16 13:37, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Much clearer now, however, the CBS link goes to the Columbia Broadcasting System. I don't believe that's the record label, or is it?--Truco 503 16:32, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for spotting that. I've changed it to CBS Records and pipe linked it to Columbia Records (what the company is now known as). They are a different label to the other CBS Records, founded in 2006. Pyrrhus16 16:51, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since you link the other ones, link to Billie Jean
  • directed by Spike Lee.[13] Rupert Wainwright directed the "HIStory Teaser", a promotional trailer for Jackson's HIStory album. The teaser, filmed in Hungary, showed Jackson marching with soldiers dressed in red. -- Unlink Hungary, per WP:OVERLINK
  • In 1996, the $7 million "Scream" won a Grammy for Best Music Video, Short Form, and shortly afterward Guinness World Records listed it as the most expensive music video ever made. -- Link to United States dollar
  • Everything else checks out fine, excellent work.--Truco 503 01:52, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- Previous issues resolved/clarified; list now meets WP:WIAFL, and I'm pretty sure TRM's comments will be addressed below.--Truco 503 18:43, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose
    • ""Beat It", "Billie Jean" and Thriller" - why are the first two non-italics and in quotes and the last in italics without quotes?
  • The format was copied from the main Michael Jackson article. As the wikilinks for "Billie Jean" and "Beat It" were to the song articles, they are in quotes. Thriller was italicised because it links to the article on the film as opposed to the song. I've changed it to quotation marks for consistency. Pyrrhus16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "credited for transforming the music video into an art form and a promotional tool" by whom? Where's the reference for this please?
    • Same comment for the next couple of claims - "new channel to fame", "made an enduring staple", "drew controversy"..
  • Now cited, apart from the last one. I changed it to the weaker word criticism. The criticism is referenced throughout the music video section. Pyrrhus16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "awarded Guinness World Records." why?
    • "of the entertainer's other " - "of Jackson's other" is fine.
    • "of the actor's feature" ditto.
    • suggestive lyrics. [5] - remove space before cite.
    • black artists. [6][7] - ditto.
    • Why have a section 1.1 when there's no 1.2?
    • "was considered too violent, and was later replaced with a music video set in Brazil" a little odd for me. It implies that a video set in Brazil wouldn't be too violent.
  • Added different before music video. Pyrrhus16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • "recognised" this is BritEng spelling, while the rest of the article appears to be USEng.
    • "the most successful music video" can you quantify what you mean by "successful" here?
  • I don't really know what the Guinness World Records definition of "success" is. I wouldn't really like to speculate on it. Pyrrhus16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Okay, so provide a directly referenced quotation please, as this will clearly remain ambiguous. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:35, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The phrase is now inside quotation marks. Pyrrhus16 12:47, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • " the innovative music video " - who said it was innovative? Is that just your opinion?
    • Certainly not sure I see the point of a single entry table for the Television appearances section.
    • "Jackson has released..." implies he is still alive?
    • DVDs section - the table is quite messy for me. Do you really need to repeat the IFPI, ARIA etc when each one could be covered by a suitable column heading?
  • Removed abbreviations from the table as they are not really needed. Pyrrhus16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ref 10 - 2 not 02...
    • Shouldn't the ten-digit ISBN fields be consistent with hyphenation?
  • They are now all consistent. Pyrrhus16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your comments. Pyrrhus16 19:16, 15 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support Happy to say this list is looking very good. All of my concerns have been addressed, so I'm happy to support. Drewcifer (talk) 16:44, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Drewcifer

Weak Oppose Certainly a decent list, but I have a few problems with it so far:

  • The DVD table is a mess. Specifically, the way it is formatted is way too wide, so it gets squeezed uncomfortably. And the reason this happens is because each county is given its own column, much like chart positions in discographies. Instead, I would suggest taking a cue from the same discographies, and modeling the certifications after the way it's done in discographies (see Nine Inch Nails discography for an example of what I mean.) You'd save some horizontal space since you can ignore countries where the DVD hasn't charted, and instead list things vertically. I would also recommend following a similar column header format as discographies, which would eliminate the need for sales figures (which are wrong anyways, since certifications are based on units shipped, not sold, but that point is moot if you remove them).
  • Thanks. I've changed the format of the table. Pyrrhus16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Secondly, some of the refs provided are problematic. Try clicking on any of the CRIA ones to see what I mean. Also, many of them are in foreign languages, so use the "language" parameter to the cite web templates.
  • Added the language parameter to all foreign sources. Pyrrhus16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now for some more meta-questions:

Thank you for your comments and suggestions. :) Pyrrhus16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of the references still lead to a search page (like the CRIA ref). Provide a description of how to find the information you're referencing, such as "User must search for "Michael Jackson" or some other instructions they need to know.
Added description to refs. Pyrrhus16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The long list of certifying bodies in the prose of the DVD section is completely unnecessary, especially if they're wikilinked in the table like I suggested above.
  • Use the multiplication sign (×) not an x for multi-platinum certifications.
Done. Pyrrhus16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why the link to the Dome Project? It's just a redirect to Jackson's last tour, not sure how that applies. Drewcifer (talk) 04:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. It had previously been an article on an unreleased Jackson music video. Pyrrhus16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why all the prose? This is a list, therefore, any prose should be in relation to the list as a whole. Or in other words, prose should only be provided if an explanation is necessary to fit a particular list item into the context of the other items. So, then, why so many unnecessary details? Why do we care that Michael watched videos of gazelles to prepare for the role of the Scarecrow? This is information clearly more suited to the article for The Wiz. And I would argue that at least half of the prose here fits under the same category.
I've trimmed some of the prose. Would you like more taken off? Pyrrhus16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Drewcifer (talk) 09:54, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm not sure exactly what you've taken out, but I'd still suggest taking a ton out. Most of the Stark Raving Dad section could be trimmed down considerably, as most of that is better suited in the episode's article. Also, for instance, the sentence "Jackson's first film role was as the Scarecrow in the The Wiz". The table already tells us that, so why bother with repeating it in a sentence? Most of the prose in the article falls under one of these two categories: stuff that we already know from the tables, or stuff that is too specific and belongs in the film's article, not here.
Trimmed some more. Pyrrhus16 13:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm suggesting much more than a trim, I'm talking about removing whole sections of prose, since they're redundant. Take a look at most FLs, and very few of them have any prose at all except for the lead. Some more examples: All the prose in the DVD section. It tells us a few things :"Jackson released several DVDs" well we know that from the table, "some were originally released on VHS" also featured in the table, "All of Jackson's DVD releases have been certified by trading bodies such as the Recording Industry Association of America (RIAA) and the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI)." also in the table. So why have any prose at all? I would say the same for the filmography section. It tells us almost nothing that isn't already part of the table. And perhaps, what little there is that the prose does cover could be incorporated into the table. You could add a director column. Add "(cameo)" to the last two roles. And voila, no need for any prose at all. Mind you, I haven't even looked at the Music videos section, but I'm assuming the same things could be said about that.
Removed prose from both sections. Should I remove the prose from the music video section? Pyrrhus16 15:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Removed prose from music video section. Pyrrhus16 16:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the titling the last section "DVDs" is a bit of a misnomer, especially since many of them were originally released on VHS. I'd suggest retitling it.
Renamed to home video releases. Pyrrhus16 15:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Pyrrhus16 15:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why "Videography"? It seems you've interpreted "Filmography" as "stuff only shot on film lasting x amount of minutes", but that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. Woody Allen filmography and includes television work, Spike Lee filmography includes music videos, Christopher Walken filmography includes video games. In fact, I'd argue that videography is less-inclusive than filmography.
  • It was initially called Michael Jackson filmography, but as there were mainly music videos listed, it was suggested in the last FLC to change it to its current title. Pyrrhus16 14:16, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not sure if I agree with that, but if someone else suggested it, I'll let it slide. But if anyone else has an opinion on this, I'd definitely want to hear it.

I'm glad to say this list is look very very good. I only have a few more comments:

  • The filmography ref column should be centered.
  • The lead should mention the Simpsons episode.
  • The "DVD details" column is porrly named, since they came out in various formats. I'd recommend "Video details".
  • Along the same lines, the Formats of all of the video releases should include DVD (assuming it was released as such).
  • Some external links would be helpful. Such as a link to his website, his IMDB page, etc.Drewcifer (talk) 21:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done; added his official website, IMDB and Allmovie. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:04, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


  • Question shouldn't #Music videos have a chart position peak column also? Nergaal (talk) 17:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The music videos have never been released in the way that a single or an album has. I don't believe there is a chart for music videos. Pyrrhus16 17:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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