Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Songs, sketches and monologues of Dan Leno/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Gimmetoo 01:35, 5 August 2012 [1].

Songs, sketches and monologues of Dan Leno

Featured list candidates/Songs, sketches and monologues of Dan Leno/archive1

Nominator(s): Cassianto (talk) and Ssilvers (talk)

We are nominating this for featured list because... having successfully promoted Dan Leno to featured article status we have now completed this list of his recordings and sketches using all of the major sources about this subject. We believe that it now satisfies the criteria for Feature List status as the article has completed a peer review where issues were raised and addressed to the satisfaction of the reviewers. The subject, Dan Leno, was a leading music hall comedian who was also a notable actor in Victorian burlesque and pantomime. We hope that you enjoy reading this exhaustive list as much as we have enjoyed researching and writing it, and we look forward to all comments and suggestions -- Cassianto^Talk 07:37, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support I participated at the Peer Review and the two issues which hindered its promotion were resolved. --GoP _T ^C _N 08:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support and your helpful comments at peer review! -- Cassianto^Talk 21:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto. :-) -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 07:51, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

Image caption is not a complete sentence, no need for the full stop.

Fixed, thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is it "beefeater" or "Beefeater"?

Not sure what you are asking - the title of the sketch was "The Beefeater". -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, the other use of beefeater is not capitalised, that was all. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Where are his birth/death dates referenced?

In the first line of the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the paper source? The Rambling Man (talk)

In the book sources, obits, etc. See Leno's main article. All sources agree, and there is no question or controversy, so a cite need not be given directly following the dates (just like in Leno's main article). I think this is consistent with WP:V etc. -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, cool. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Since this about a quintessentially British subject, it should be written in British English, e.g. organization should be organisation.

Fixed, thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"He originated and popularised many popular songs..." I'm not keen on him "originating" a song, that reads very strangely to me.

I disagree. It is very common in the arts to refer to originating an acting role, character or song. See, for example, this. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, as I said, it reads odd "to me". No need to change it. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You may wish to appropriately link sketch.

Done, thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"for the His Master's Voice (HMV)" no need to link it twice in a row.

Fixed, thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"début" no need for the accent, debut has been adequately anglicised.

Fixed, thanks!

"discs " again, BritEng, disks.

I think you are backwards. Disc is international, while disk is American. See disc. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I'll assume you don't mean I am backwards, rather I have it the wrong way round. Fair enough. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Haha! Sorry, you are correct! I didn't mean to imply any physiological or temporal backwardness, only metaphorically directional. :-) -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No worries. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How is "a Spanish bandit" part of London life?

Haha! Good point. Modified. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Recording Number -> Recording number, check all other table headings.

Done, thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"GC2–2518" should that really be "GC–2–2518"?

Done. -- Cassianto^Talk 15:38, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"A sketch by Alfred Bryan of Leno as a dame from 1890s." caption doesn't need a full stop.

Fixed, thanks! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Recording number doesn't sort back to its original order, so you can never restore the table to its original format (essentially, the recording number column doesn't sort properly).

Fixed. -- Cassianto^Talk 08:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Consider making year sortable.

Now sortable. -- Cassianto^Talk 15:20, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Year performed column doesn't sort correctly, because of the "c. ...." entries.

Fixed. -- Cassianto^Talk 08:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 4 and ref 5 are the same.

Not now. -- Cassianto^Talk 15:35, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 3 New York Times should be The New York Times.

Thanks, fixed! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ref 27, probably worth specifying which The Times it is (London).

By a link or "(London)"? -- Cassianto^Talk

Most refs I've seen would just have (London). You could alternatively link The Times? The Rambling Man (talk) 16:17, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Changed in my absence. -- Cassianto^Talk 20:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

" 1901 - 1907 " en-dash, not hyphen.

Thanks, fixed! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure you need Category:Music-related lists since you have Category:Lists of musical works.

Removed. -- Cassianto^Talk 20:28, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and the title isn't right because the list also includes monologues.

The Rambling Man (talk) 13:12, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We are reluctant to have such a long title. On the other hand, I don't think "works" is correct, as I believe that Leno wrote some longer pieces that are not included here (Cassianto, please confirm), and "short works" sounds kinda silly. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes that's correct. Leno's pieces ran between a few minutes to over an hour. These longer pieces are not included. "Works" to me doesn't sound right. It's ambiguous IMO. I also disagree with a name change to incorporate "monologues". Way too long. -- Cassianto^Talk 15:40, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well the current name is incorrect, so you need to come to a compromise! The Rambling Man (talk) 16:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it's "incorrect", although it is arguably incomplete (one might consider that "sketches" also covers monologues. See comedy sketch.) Perhaps other commentators have a better suggestion or opinions on this item? -- Ssilvers (talk) 17:00, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes you're right, it's not simply "incorrect", but it doesn't adequately describe the contents of the list right now. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, The Rambling Man, for all of these corrections! -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:08, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments on sorting from RexxS

Looking at the Discography table, the values in the "Recording number" do not have an intrinsic order. (By the way using "Recording<br> number" as a heading is not so good for screen readers as they will announce the line break - we don't need to force that and really ought to let the browser set column widths.)

The JavaScript sorting function will treat the "recording numbers" as numbers as far as it can, so they will range from 1066 to 1129; then 3222 to 3496; followed by 43 to 50; and finally 23117. An easy fix is to make the script see the 43 to 50 as bigger numbers. I've done a demo edit which adds a hidden "40" onto the 43 to 50 series making them appear as 4043 to 4050 to the sorting script. However, the entries are still not in order of recording number as 'Spiritualism' (3462/3) is listed later than 'The Shopwalker' (3478/9) and 'The Muffin Man' (3480/1). As a result, the usual sorting will not restore the order that we first see them in (although reloading the page will). If there is no particular reason for the position of 'Spiritualism', I'd suggest placing it before 'The Shopwalker'. You should also check the recording number of the 'The Lecturer' (showing as 3484/5), as it is the same as that given for 'Wait Till I'm His Father'.

If you can check the accuracy of the recording numbers, and make any changes if necessary, I'd be happy to return to this and make the sorting work for you. Did you really want to sort on 'Issue number'? If so, make sure that the order you have is correct and I'll use the {{sort}} template to set a usable sort order for you. I should warn you that Safari browsers prior to version 4.1 won't sort properly with values containing en dashes, but we can deal with that if we set a full sort key. (Incidentally, I've replaced the html entities – with actual – (endash character) as it's so much easier to read and in line with the advice about Character encodings in HTML, but you can revert that if you don't like it.) --RexxS (talk) 18:05, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry about that. The duplicated recording number has been altered as per Brandreth. All other's have been checked too. Some can be found here for those who would wish to check on further accuracy. I agree with the en dashes character rather than the formatted version. -- Cassianto^Talk 19:32, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, as always, for the advice RexxS. I'm using Safari 5.1.7 for what it's worth, and the sorting is definitely out of whack on that right now. I was using IE earlier and it wasn't quite so odd but still not correct... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:24, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks RexxS, so a non-technical explanation would be to sort the Recording numbers into numerical order? -- Cassianto^Talk 18:49, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Done. -- Cassianto^Talk 19:23, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Discography table seems to work as expected now. Check with TRM. I've applied a full sort key to the "Year performed" in the Unrecorded songs, sketches and monologues table and it seems to work ok with all the browsers I have available to test with. I think Gimmetoo and Ucucha have copies of Safari 4.0, and you could ask them if you want to check the worst case. --RexxS (talk) 21:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Great work! Your input here has been truely invaluable. TRM does this satisfy your concerns? -- Cassianto^Talk 21:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, RexxS! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, now all you need to fix as far as I'm concerned is the title of the article. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Renamed to "Songs, sketches and monologues of Dan Leno". -- Cassianto^Talk 19:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It may be that I've contributed a little too much to have my !vote counted, but I'm sure the closer will take into account that I would support the promotion of this list, as I feel it satisfies all of my concerns regarding accessibility and usability. --RexxS (talk) 21:12, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your advice during this article has been tremendous RexxS. Your ability to not blur the line between advisor and contributor, has helped me understand lists and tables so much better. Thanks for the support. -- Cassianto^Talk 17:02, 20 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by User:Indopug

All the song titles should in quotes.

Done. -- Cassianto^Talk 11:39, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If the song titles must be in quotes, then so must the sketch and monologue titles. See WP:MOSTITLE. I've done the rest. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Capitalisation of the titles isn't done properly. For eg: The Tower Of London → "The Tower of London". I am Waiting For Him Tonight → "I Am Waiting for Him Tonight". Refer MOS:CT.

Fixed. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:22, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorting by Title: should The Bandit, The Detective and The Jap be sorted by B, D and J respectively, instead of T?

Sorry in advance for my lack of knowledge on "sorting" issues. Would that mean de-capitalising "The" and leaving caps on for "B" "D" "J"? -- Cassianto^Talk 11:52, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, don't de-capitalize the "The" - just ignore "The" and "A" in sorting. -- Ssilvers (talk) 15:15, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I have completed this on both tables. Indopug, can you check to see if this is now correct and let me know here if it's not? -- Cassianto^Talk 14:17, 11 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments, User:Indopug. -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:51, 10 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (Talk) 17:15, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments –

In the discography table, "The Hard Boiled Egg and the Wasp" doesn't seem to be sorting in the right order.

Fixed by adding missing inverts. Giants2008, has this fixed it? -- Cassianto^Talk 10:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the second table, a space is needed after ref 25 in the "Never More" note entry.

Space added. -- Cassianto^Talk 10:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Minor point, but reference 16 uses a style of shortening the second page number that isn't followed elsewhere in the article. Not a big deal, but it would be nice if the references were consistent throughout.

Fixed -- Cassianto^Talk 10:28, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I expect that the answer to this question is no, since this has clearly been thoroughly prepared, but is there a page number avaliable for the New York Times article? Giants2008 (Talk) 01:47, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but the answer is no. In light of this, I have linked the reference to the article for a better understanding. Will this be OK? -- Cassianto^Talk 10:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support all my concerns have been resolved.—indopug (talk) 16:44, 2 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.