Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Ecchi 2

Illustration for the term Ecchi[edit]

Voting period is over. Please don't add any new votes. Voting period ends on 16 May 2011 at 09:16:17 (UTC)

Reason: It is already featured in many projects and was under the finalists of Picture of the Year 2008 from Commons. It's last nomination in 2010 was denied because of bad composition (dutch angle) and that it would be to revealing for the main page. As no consensus could be found, i was told to renominate it after some time again. Instead i'm going to nominate this version of the image, which does not make use of the dutch angle. Notice, that this image is also available as an SVG version. I nominate the the JPG export instead because the wikimedia svg renderer (librsvg) has it's issues to render the image correctly.

Note: I added this image 3 weeks ago to the peer review, which seams to be abandoned.

Articles in which this image appears: Ecchi
FP category for this image: Drawings
Creator: Niabot

Support as nominator --Niabot (talk) 09:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support like I did before it had a dutch angle.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫T 09:36, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment -- the image which you have nominated isn't used in any articles. NotFromUtrecht (talk) 09:37, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Just switched the version. There are four versions of more or less the same image) --Niabot (talk) 09:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I don't see how it is too revealing, an image like this would appear in any Japanese kids show. Unless the original image is a lot more revealing? And I think it's a good representation of the subject matter, to give a reasoning for my support. Anoldtreeok (talk) 14:01, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Strong Oppose Again from the past howcheng has stated he'd probably allow it on the main page, and I feel this subject, a sexualized image of a young girl thats hinting at nudity, does NOT belong on the main page. That in addition too the EV this is contributing to the sole article it's used in is minimal at best, that article is so nondescript and basic it's hard to say if this really applies or doesn't. Third, this isn't even the version that has been recognized or nominated in the past File:Anime Girl.svg is the one, which is a SVG, this is a JPG that has virtually no global use. Finally, this version's camera angle is less appealing than File:Anime Girl.svg. — raeky t 16:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Other oppose "reasons" aside. This image is also available as SVG and nearly identical to the first version. The reason to nominate the JPEG export is because of rendering bugs inside librsvg used by Wikimedia software. But i also guess that it doesn't matter which version does get nominated. Because of reason #1 it will always be the wrong version of this image. ;-) --Niabot (talk) 16:20, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Something can be featured and not go on the main page. That's not a reason to vote against it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 18:11, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Melodia, normally, you would be correct, but as Raeky explained, it has been determined that this image would go on the main page if featured. As so, in this case, Raeky's argument is a reasonable one provided we agree that this does not belong on the main page (I am not sure whether I do, but that doesn't mean I am going to pretend that the argument is not reasonable). J Milburn (talk) 18:30, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a voting about images or moral issues? --Niabot (talk) 18:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am starting to wonder that keeping in mind that wikipedia is Not Censored, and votes should be about the image at hand here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A good example of WP:NOTCENSORED was a picture (although not on the English Wikipedia) on the main page in the German Wikipedia, a picture of a vulva (which was Today's Featured Article). Regards.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫T 19:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes- all hell broke loose, with Jimbo and others criticising the choice. Niabot, making a call about whether something is suitable for the main page of this website is very different from speaking out against the subject; I think you are somewhat prone to take this to heart. I think we can all agree that a picture of two adults having consensual sex in the missionary position would be inappropriate for the main page, but that would not be to make any judgement about the act or the fact that it was photographed. J Milburn (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is this your only reason for your current reaction? That would be shamefull, indeed. The kind of comparison is more then shamefull. --Niabot (talk) 22:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I am not sure what you mean. I am not trying to compare this image to a photograph of people having sex, I am merely using that as an example of an image we would all, I hope, agree does not belong on the main page. Could you please stop jumping to these conclusions? J Milburn (talk) 22:39, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is an bad example to do so. Since it implicates a very different case, which some might see much more offensive, distracting from the actual subject. --Niabot (talk) 00:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But you accept that it would be inappropriate to have that image on the main page, yes? J Milburn (talk) 10:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We are speaking not about my opinion. We speak about the opinion of other participants which i can't predict. What i can predict is, that this example is used to build the opinion of others which have not dicided yet. In my case any picture is valid as long it is in the right context. --Niabot (talk) 11:00, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What on earth are you talking about? I really do not understand why you are being so evasive about this. We (I think) agree that there are some images which are inappropriate for main page use (or, if you do not believe that, your view is way out of touch with the views of Wikipedians generally). We know that this image in particular will appear on the main page if promoted. Therefore, if this image is inappropriate for main page use (as Raeky believes) then that is a perfectly good argument against its promotion. This is not me making a judgement about the image, nor is this me comparing this image to pornography. This is simply me explaining why that argument is a reasonable one. You continually attack anyone who uses this argument; if you disagree with Raeky's judgement about the appropriateness of this image for the main page, fine; I am personally unsure. However, dismissing Raeky's vote outright is not at all reasonable. J Milburn (talk) 11:23, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm strongly offended by such thoughts, since they are contradictory to science and knowledge. Anything should be treated equal in its own right. You don't even know how many viewers would actually be offended by this kind of image. The only thing that i surely know, that some votes on FPC can't be representative for this kind of question. It's not up to FPC to decide whats need to be censored and what not. Thats why this is no legitimate argument. --Niabot (talk) 11:30, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In saying that "Anything should be treated equal in its own right", are you claiming that you feel that anything would be suitable for use on the main page? If you are, then I suppose that it's no surprise that you find the argument difficult to follow. J Milburn (talk) 11:34, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Im saying that anything can be put on the mainpage under the basic conditions of legality and neutrality. --Niabot (talk) 18:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, for instance, you would have no problem with hardcore pornography appearing on the main page, as long as it was legal and presented neutrally? J Milburn (talk) 23:07, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. I can't see any reason against it, if it's in relation with an article or topic, using this image as illustration. Thats what you can call uncensored truth. Nothing bad about this. It happens every day worldwide. No need to deny it. Citing the The Economist it has an revenue of over 20 billion dollar per year. Now count the number of people involved and tell me why this is not important enough to have it's rightfull place among other topics? --Niabot (talk) 23:16, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, it is unsurprising that you have no time for Raeky's argument. I can assure you that your view is very much contrary to that of many Wikipedians, and very much against current consensus on the matter. J Milburn (talk) 23:21, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As long you don't count european and turkish contributers as Wikipedians, this could be true. In case of the German Wikipedia we even have a rule (Meinungsbild closed with 233:13) that forbids this kind of censorship for the mainpage (Hauptseite). --Niabot (talk) 23:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We even had this or this image on the mainpage. Did it caused problems? Some nice discussions maybe. But nothing else. --Niabot (talk) 23:47, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am not talking about the German Wikipedia. Clearly, the way the main page is treated there is different to how it is treated here. J Milburn (talk) 19:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I am telling you the last time, that i do not give a shit about your manipulative, censored, happy pink bunny mainpage. All i want is fair judgement without the mainpage as an ostensible reason, that is of course "not the reason". Got it? --Niabot (talk) 20:58, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Just drop it - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:12, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Niabot, whether you give a shit about it or not, this is actually the English Wikipedia, and so the main page here, whether it is "manipulative", "censored" or even "happy pink bunny", is the one that matters. As has been repeatedly explained to you, the main page argument is, in this case, a legitimate one- if you don't care, that's fine, but there are, clearly, some who do. Equally, whether or not John the photographer cares about the resolution of his images, it would be perfectly legitimate to oppose his thumbnails if he nominated them here... J Milburn (talk) 21:21, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So you are telling me, that you would do anything to protect your happy pink bunny mainpage. But you also said, that this is not the main reason to oppose the image (see below). I guess we can quit debating at this point. Otherwise you would make a fool out of yourself. (See your conclusion below)

You (J Milburn) definitely opposed for this reason. No question about it. (You made it very clear in this discussion)
Raeky doesn't want to see it at the mainpage. (First and of course the major reason from him in this and the first discussion)
Muhammad Mahdi Karim seams to have different names or multiple accounts. At least i can't find his signature in the archived first discussion. He blamed it on canvasing. Did you see any mass voting from the anime project?

Thats why i said at the end, that you make false and to early conclusions, just to make a point. --Niabot (talk) 22:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, I am not telling you that I would "do anything to protect" the "happy pink bunny mainpage"; I am saying that your vision of a free-for-all on the main page does not hold on the English Wikipedia. There are some things that should not and will not appear there (whether this image is an example of that is another matter). And, no, as both Knowledgekid87 and I pointed out, very few of the opposes (just Raeky?) are actually related to the main page issue. As I have repeatedly said, I am not opposing for that reason (note my oppose vote...), and I am, in fact, not sure where I stand on the issue of whether this image is appropriate for the main page. All I have done is defended Raeky's oppose as a reasonable one. That's a very different thing from agreeing with it. Whether or not there has been "mass voting", your post to the anime WikiProject could easily be constituted as canvassing. Canvassing does not necessarily need to be successful in order to be against policy. Finally, you have said repeatedly that I "make false and to early conclusions", but you still haven't actually pointed out what they are. It seems that the majority of things you think I have said (for instance, your claim that I "definitely opposed for this reason [the main page issue]"), I have not. I don't know whether this is a language problem, or whether you're muddling me with someone else, or what, but it's getting a little tiresome... J Milburn (talk) 22:14, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To make it clear. I was not canvasing. I was asking for help on special questions. If you call that canvasing, then call it that way. This was never my intention. (So far about good faith)

In your position i would do the same. Argumentation that it is not the main reason while it is. But whats about Muhammad's "same reason as last time". Does he have multiple accounts? If he does not, then i must ask: What are his reasons from last time? The only option would be the mainpage issue. That are now at least two out of four. --Niabot (talk) 22:27, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I can believe you that you had no intention to canvass, but, regardless, perhaps that was not the wisest choice of words. Concerning my oppose, I should hope that I am intellectually honest enough to admit why I am opposing an image. Honesty about my views has gotten me into trouble on Wikipedia in the past... In this case, I can assure you that I am not opposing due to any perceived impropriety. Concerning Muhammad, I am not able to speak for him, though, so far as I know, he has no alternative account, and, I suspect, he means "the arguments given last time" rather than "the arguments I [Muhammad] gave last time". If it is worrying you, I advise you ask him. J Milburn (talk) 22:45, 9 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I have been to alot of anime conventions and have seen the art, this image captures the ecchi image nicely without giving away too much, a fine wikipedia example here. For those who also do not know images such as these tend to be drawn to look youthful that is Japan's culture when it comes to anime/manga, no place does it state that this is an image of a child. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:08, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The SVG version of this was already nominated and generated a huge amount of argument after which there was no consensus. Nominating the JPG version of the same file seems like deliberate trouble making. Can we just assume that there isn't going to be an agreement here and move on?--RDBury (talk) 19:45, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its a different version. That are two different images. Both of them have a SVG versions and i was asked to nominate the image again after some time, since no consensus could be found last year. --Niabot (talk) 20:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It does seem strange though that you didn't nominate the one that is a FP on three other projects... Clearly that one has more global consensus and use? I do agree with RDBury here that I think there was at least some attempt to bypass the previous discussion by not nominating the same image that is linked to it. — raeky t 20:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So you accuse me of bad faith, just because i created this version as the result of the last criticism on the use of the dutch angle? Very interesting maneuver. --Niabot (talk) 20:18, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I propose you (Niabot) add the first image as an alt. Then we can simply decide which one is better.--♫Greatorangepumpkin♫T 20:22, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus can change, the last voting did take place last year. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:10, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is the original version we last time couldn't decide over, because of the, in my opinion non existent, "mainpage issue". In any way the exported version should be used inside articles, just because the currently used renderer sucks and is great in destroying valid SVG images at different output sizes. --Niabot (talk) 20:28, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have moved the image to the top of the page, as is usually done with alts. J Milburn (talk) 23:55, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support per above. The tilting of the image does not matter too much to me I am leaning towards this one though as it shows more of the picture and detail. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:16, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Note for closer: This is Knowledgekid87's second vote in this nomination. J Milburn (talk) 09:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Don't want to make assumptions, but I think Knowledgekid87 was supporting alt this time around, and just didn't make that clear. Anoldtreeok (talk) 10:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Actually J Milburn deleted the section for votings on the alternative itself and is no discrediting Knowledgekid87 to have voted two times. Nice tactic and great afford of fairness. How does it come, that I'm assaulted to do canvasing and he himself destroys candidatures? In short: He is an asshole. --Niabot (talk) 10:45, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      - I formatted this nomination consistently with how FPCs are always formatted. We don't create subsections for each alt added to the page. How, precisely, that makes me an asshole is beyond me. I was not meaning to "discredit" anyone, I was just making sure people realised not to count Knowledgekid87's vote twice. J Milburn (talk) 11:29, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        Anoldtreeok is correct I voted twice when there was two seperate discussions for the two images, now that the discussions are combined I have struck my second vote here. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:17, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: In case it wasn't blindingly obvious, there has been some canvassing for this nomination here, with a request that WikiProject members "correct some misunderstandings" that may arise... J Milburn (talk) 22:35, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for some support about knowledge, wich was evidently missing in other votings. Whats wrong about it, to inform the people of a project that are well informed about this kind of art? --Niabot (talk) 22:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how doing that is any different to when people on project pages link others to moves and deletion discussions which are relevant to that project, in hopes of achieving a particular outcome. That seems pretty accepted. Anoldtreeok (talk) 04:14, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One can argue that this may seem offensive to conservatives. What if I were to go to religion portals and ask "for some support about" morality "wich was evidently missing in other votings"? --Muhammad(talk) 04:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anoldtreeok, take a look at our guideline on the subject. If one is to request input to a discussion like that, it should very specifically not be "in hopes of achieving a particular outcome". J Milburn (talk) 08:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is about things considering the anime/manga style. Did i mention with any of my words that they should support this image or not? I just see the constant assuming of bad faith and denunciation of myself. Great job you idiots. --Niabot (talk) 09:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, looking over the guideline, I see where you're coming from in regards to canvassing. I'd still argue posting links to deletions or merges proposals on project pages is in the same league at times, but either way, other people doing something doesn't make it OK. (WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS?). Anoldtreeok (talk) 10:11, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per last time and canvassing --Muhammad(talk) 04:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support Valued and Quality image --minhhuy*= (talk) 04:53, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose After reading the article I can not find the EV of this image. Also, I would like to see this as a SVG or at the very least a PNG. JPEG is a horrible format to have drawings is.--Guerillero | My Talk 06:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is also available as and SVG. Since the Wikimedia renderer is going nuts on valid images, i nominated the export, to ensure it looks right in the thumbnails. Thats why this files are marked to use the JPEG/PNG instead the SVG - currently. --Niabot (talk) 08:00, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. While this is a stronger image than last time compositionally, it really should be svg or png. However, I am still opposing for the reason I did last time- after reading the article and seeing this image, I am not sure I am any the wiser. I do not think that this image aids reader (specifically, my) understanding of the article in any real way, which is the most important criterion for a FP. J Milburn (talk) 09:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Did you read anything about this nomination? I nominated the export of this svg version, because of rendering issues caused by librsvg used by wikimedia projects. --Niabot (talk) 09:15, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

svg or png would be more appropriate, regardless of your opinion of Wikimedia software. In any case, as I said, that is not my main reason for opposing. J Milburn (talk) 09:20, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

while the other reason is only hypothetic. Ok right... --Niabot (talk) 09:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whatever you want to call it, it is an important part of the criteria... J Milburn (talk) 09:26, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The image at hand here shows the reader an example of ecchi in anime and manga which is what the article leans towards, there are images out there that are similar but show the girl completely covered and not in a sexuial pose. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 17:04, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Suppose Aaadddaaammm (talk) 09:43, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I see you are keen to please both sides ;-) --Muhammad(talk) 11:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - I am, but thinking about it I go for an unconditional Support. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 13:07, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support either, prefer alt. Good drawing, seems to illustrate the article well (although I don't know much about manga or the term ecchi). I don't think Main Page appearances should concern us; they're not our call. --Avenue (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- No, but we know that this image will appear on the main page. However, it's worth mentioning that the majority of opposes here have been unrelated to the main page issue. J Milburn (talk) 18:18, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - Please don't come to conclusions while voting/argumentation is still in progress. --Niabot (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - No unwarranted conclusions have been reached. Howcheng has said that this probably will go on the main page if promoted, and the majority of oppose votes at this time are not related to the main page issue. Simple. J Milburn (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    - Niabot I only see one Oppose vote that is related to the main page issue, it is something that should just be dropped on both sides as it is not important, the closing admin will decide the outcome of that arguement. What should be focused on is the other aspects of the picture and not focus on the main page issue which as pointed out is not up to us to decide. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Var. 1 - JPG
Var. 1 - SVG
Var. 2 - PNG
Var. 2 - SVG

@At the closer: Please consider that both variants of this image are available as JPG and as well as SVG. Nominating the JPG was done because of rendering issues with the current implementation of librsvg inside the Wikimedia software. The renderer often makes various mistakes at thumbnail sizes and even at original size in this case. This is no issue of the images itself, which are valid SVG. I want you to consider both, the exported version and the original, as the same image, ignoring the claims of some, that this is the wrong image. --Niabot (talk) 20:42, 8 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Like most of the above, I'm not concerned about this appearing on the main page. But, having read the article and this discussion, I can't see any tangible EV For the image. If someone takes the time to properly integrate the image into the article with valid sources, then we may be in business. Also, I agree that this should be SVG. Cowtowner (talk) 05:58, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are this four alternatives. Choose one if you like. --Niabot (talk) 08:31, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Now better? --Niabot (talk) 12:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I have no qualms with the angle or its appearance on the main page. I am opposing the image on its grounds that its caption isn't supported by sources from the article and I'm not exactly certain it is the best example of ecchi. For the caption, it describes items which aren't found in the article as examples (wet clothing is mentioned, but the clothing does not appear to be wet). For the latter, given what descriptions are in the article, the image while it does have semi-transparent clothing, doesn't appear to meet any of the examples given:
This can be conversations with sexual references or misunderstandings about sexuality in dialogs (double meaning, words taken out of context), misunderstandings in visual depictions (the position or pose of a character is suggestive), clothing (underwear, cosplay, fethish clothing, etc.), nudity (ripped apart clothing, wet clothing, clothing malfuncations, etc.) and the portrayal of certain actions (touch or look at parts of the body). This kind of sexuality is commonly used for comical effect. A typical example scene would contain a male protagonist that accidentally enters a women-only bath or trips over a female character, leaving the impression of sexual harassment.
That paragraph appears to sum up what kinds of actions are considered ecchi. The image doesn't seem to be any of those. If its the intention that clothing what it is an example of, using the etc (as it doesn't appear to be cosplay nor is it apparent that this would be undergarments or fetish clothing), using the all encompassing etc as a catch call can't be used here; in addition the as i previously mentioned the clothing does not appear to be wet so its not a clothing malfunction category either.陣内 _Jinnai 01:49, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It does not sum up what is considered ecchi, it gives an overview over some of the repeating patterns, which transparent, tight or short closing are as well. --Niabot (talk) 08:09, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are no sources that state that in the article.陣内 _Jinnai 17:31, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose the original and all of the variations/alternations/different file types. I’m sorry to be so negative and boring, but I don’t think this picture satisfies criterion 5, in that it doesn’t help me understand Ecchi. TehGrauniad (talk) 20:00, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Support – Per Knowledgekid87. P. S. Burton (talk) 12:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not Promoted --Makeemlighter (talk) 20:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]