- Seattle–Tacoma International Airport (talk|edit|history|logs|links|archive|watch) (RM)
Closer did not follow the spirit and intent of WP:RMCI in closing this requested move. I just do not know how many examples I needed. I did not want to flood the page with 400 books that use a hyphen, but there is what a 47:1 ratio, and I certainly could have. "There you go again" comes to mind, which was used to belittle Carter when the desire to cap health care costs was brought up. Carter's solution was universal health care. Reagan knew that the only reason health costs had spiraled out of control was because of government involvement. Two equally valid arguments, still unresolved today. The use of an endash in a proper name is a radical proposal from the MOS editors and is not adopted by the majority of book editors, and there is no reason for it to be adopted by WP, in the choosing of article titles. Names have names. Find out what the most common name is and use that. Find out what the correct official name is and use that, provided enough people actually use it, in common usage. I think I more than amply demonstrated that Seattle Tacoma is spelled with a hyphen, and as our own policy states, it does not matter if a thousand editors disagree, the more correct proposal is the one used. The closer did not follow that advice. We have what, five principles (goals) used in choosing names (Recognizability, Naturalness, Precision, Conciseness, and Consistency [note: most hyphenated airport names on WP still use hyphens - a small number were converted to endash recently - this one on 31 January 2010]). How by any stretch of the imagination does Seattle Tacoma with an endash fit even one of them? Apteva (talk) 16:01, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close Seems like the close followed Wikipedia's style guide. I don't see how the fact that other works, even if a majority, using a different style should override our internal consistency. If other pages don't follow the style guide, isn't the better solution to fix them? PaleAqua (talk) 16:50, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- What for? Why not change the style guide instead? The style guide is inconclusive. WP:HYPHEN says that a hyphen is used in some places. WP:DASH says that an endash is used in some places. The style guide also correctly says not to change things just to change them from one correct form to another. Some of the examples, though, where it says an endash are used are actually not correct - it says an endash is used in Comet Hale-Bopp for example, neglecting the fact that we do not capitalize comet, or did not the last time I checked, and it can just as clearly as for airports be shown that comets use hyphens, not endashes. With comets it is even easier to show because there is only one entity that arbitrates the names of all comets, the IAU, and they very clearly say that only spaces and hyphens are used in the names of comets. Apteva (talk) 19:17, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:HYPHEN says mentions that independent elements should use an en dash instead of a hyphen. And WP:NDASH dot 2 states to use it in compounds involving independent elements. WP:DASH specifically states when naming an article not to use a hyphen if an en dash belongs in the name. I don't see the inconsistency in the style guide. PaleAqua (talk) 16:07, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- They are no longer independent compounds when they become a part of the name. If WP:DASH says not to use a hyphen where a hyphen is used, something is wrong with that part of the MOS. That becomes original research, to think that what everyone else is doing is wrong, and what the official name is, is wrong. Apteva (talk) 23:10, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- To me it doesn't seem like the name is being changed, just the style it is being presented in.PaleAqua (talk) 02:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I see the MOS was also edited yesterday to eliminate all mention of hyphens being used in names, even though that is one of the common uses of hyphens.[1] But MOS guidelines do not dictate names. WP:TITLE does. Interestingly both MOS and TITLE each have 70 subpages. Apteva (talk) 23:22, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Looks like it was removed per this discussion. From what it sounds like the examples removed did not fit the bullet and also had issues based on English / French differences if I skimmed that discussion correctly. PaleAqua (talk) 02:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- That discussion is an example of the silliness at MOS - "But if the MOS explicitly mentions capitalizing species names here, this will be read (or so I believe) by some of those on both sides of the argument as endorsing capitalization of species names." - the MOS is supposed to endorse the current capitalization of bird names. One of the posters to that thread, the final poster, is someone who has been pretending that bird names should not be capitalized. That though, is not a MOS question, but a TITLE question, and the MOS should "endorse" whatever the current consensus is - for consitency - which is to use capitalization in bird names. It is not a MOS issue to put a hyphen into Mexican American War, and however it is spelled should be reflected in the MOS. Ditto for comets and airports. Most style guides simply say that names use hyphens, and while a very small number of book editors use an endash instead (about 2% of books published), the vast majority use a hyphen in all names, which is the stance that WP should take. I would be the first to recommend using an endash in a name if both the official name of something and the common use of something's name used an endash, but so far no one has been able to find even one proper name that legitimately should use an endash. And believe me some of those folks are very good at finding exceptions. Apteva (talk) 13:12, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The issue of whether Mexican-American War (below) should be spelled with an endash or a hyphen went to Arbcom which said quit fighting and figure out what to do - see Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Article titles and capitalisation#Final decision - "Style guides are used as a means of creating a consistent end result. They do not affect content, but rather how that content is presented. The English Wikipedia's Manual of Style (MoS) is a guideline, or a set of 'best practices' supported by consensus. The MoS is not a collection of hard rules." (emphasis added). I say that changing the names of airports (and wars) does affect content. Apteva (talk) 01:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Again, this seems like a style issue and not a content issue to me.PaleAqua (talk) 02:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close (reluctantly) As much as I hate that Wikipedia's style guide trumps reliable sources, the fact is that there was no consensus to move in the original discussion. Hot Stop (Edits) 04:12, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- ? The style guide saying that it trumps RS clearly does not mean that it does trump RS. If you ask me that was put there as a rationale for using an endash in Mexican American War. But here is the thing. Someone did an estimate to see how we are doing at using endash instead of hyphen in non-controverial ways, and found that we are using an endash about 55% of the time. I have no problem with the endash police going around fixing the remaining 45%, but I do have a problem with them spilling over into the ones that clearly should not use an endash. Like what's up with that? Both the MOS and RS are guidelines, meaning that both are not policy and are more likely to have exceptions than policies, which also have exceptions, just not as many. Call this an exception if you will. TITLE is clearly a policy, not a guideline, and should have precedence, but even more important is common sense. If the MOS says to use something and common sense says to use something else, which wins? Common sense every time. But for a closer to ignore common sense and count votes? FYI there has been no response from the closer, so I have no idea what they were actually thinking, but saying "insufficient support" indicates a vote count - and if there were 1000 yes votes that said tomatoz is spelled with a z and one no vote that said it was not, the one no vote should prevail, every time. Like I said, I could have flooded the page with 400 books that use a hyphen. Did insufficient support mean not enough books or not enough votes? If I was closing this I would have discounted all the votes and looked at the weight of the arguments, which, I believe, is what the closing instructions say. "Consensus is determined not just by considering the preferences of the participants in a given discussion, but also by evaluating their arguments, assigning due weight accordingly, and giving due consideration to the relevant consensus of the Wikipedia community in general as reflected in applicable policy, guidelines and naming conventions." Apteva (talk) 05:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- To be frank there has been a lot of silliness going on at MOS over the last few years and can anyone here imagine adding to RS "Ignore common sense when applying RS" or adding to TITLE, "ignore V when choosing a title"? That would be just as silly as the actual sentence that was added to the MOS "The policy page Wikipedia:Article titles does not determine punctuation." Since when? TITLE has 71 pages. Since when does one of the MOS's 71 pages take precedence over any of TITLE's 71 pages? Did Arbcom decide to put that sentence there? No. Did someone whose name starts with a J or W say to put that sentence there? No. Does it make common sense to pay any attention to that sentence? No. What makes common sense is to decide titles based on the criteria of the 71 title pages, and decide text and layout based on the 71 pages of the MOS. It is not a style issue to replace punctuation in a name, it is a naming issue. Should WP decide to not use any endashes in article names, as was the prevailing mood in 2007, that is a TITLE issue, not a MOS issue. Apteva (talk) 05:42, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I tend to pick examples that are a bit stronger than needed, but one of my favorite was when the site administrator for web archive got an NSA letter from the US Government directing them to provide IP information of people who viewed particular pages - and the letter directed them not to let anyone know about the letter. Did they comply? No and no. They promptly ignored the letter and posted it on their website. It is known as doing the right thing. I am all for following guidelines and policies to the best of our ability, but clearly WP is founded on the principle of common sense being "above any policy." Apteva (talk) 06:00, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse close. We strive for a consistent typographical style site-wide; that goal is compromised by hewing strictly to "follow the sources". The sources can inform our choices, but ultimately if we want to look like a coherent publication, we need to maintain an internally consistent style. Powers T 13:49, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- How is using hyphens where hyphens are used and using endashes where endashes are used less consistent than using endashes some of the time where hyphens are supposed to be used and using hyphens some of the time where hyphens are supposed to be used? Doing that is in my opinion, what is inconsistent, not the other way around. If we kicked endashes out of all titles, which has been proposed since 2007, then it would look a little bit like the title was in one font and the text in a slightly different font - but the difference is only about 3 pixels - and this whole argument would be moot - except that airports really do use hyphens, and as it stands right now someone might want to spell an airport in the body of the text with an endash even if the title used a hyphen. That is what would be inconsistent. WP is too big to expect everyone to use British English or everyone to use one particular citation style - or to have every article look just like every other article. It would be like instead of working on 4 million articles we were only working on four articles, and wanted them to be cohesive.[2] (no, I did not make that edit, but I did spot it and fix it) Apteva (talk) 17:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- In case you hadn't noticed, there is considerable variation among reliable sources when it comes to typography. Hyphens are often used, whether out of laziness or misunderstanding or misreading or what have you, where en-dashes would normally be called for (or be acceptable). Typography -- particularly when it comes to hyphens and dashes -- is inconsistent to the point that it's a fool's errand to try to match our own internal style with some platonic ideal. Far better to pick a rule and stick with it. Ultimately, our goal is readability; being consistent in our choices allows readers to easily understand what we write without having to guess about our meaning. Powers T 20:13, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no problem with picking the rule of never using an endash in a title. I have no problem with picking the rule of using a hyphen in every hyphenated name. I do have a problem with picking a "rule" of using an endash where a hyphen is used. Why would anyone even propose a "rule" like that? But the "fools errand" of matching our internal style is suggesting that our internal style says that airports should use an endash. When an airport is spelled with a hyphen, how does it improve readability to spell it with something else? The fact that only a tiny number of books use an endash simply amplifies the suggestion that WP should not make that choice. Apteva (talk) 20:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Contrary to your straw-man wording, the actual rule is that we use en dashes for conjunctions of lexically independent elements, as with "Seattle" and "Tacoma". That there are some sources that make the same choice is sufficient to justify it as an option, and we have chosen that option. Powers T 15:40, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Necessary, but not sufficient. The difference is that if no one used an endash we could not use one either. To be sufficient to use in a title, we need to find it is the majority use. And the MOS does not have "rules". It has suggestions. And to suggest something that very few people use, is in my opinion, simply not appropriate for WP. Apteva (talk) 03:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm aware of your opinion, painfully so. But if your opinion is the only basis for this move review, then it ought to be closed immediately. Powers T 19:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Close, obviously. Simply a case of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. — kwami (talk) 22:03, 23 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not interested in wikilawyering essays to determine policies or guidelines. It simply does not make common sense to use an endash in airports, comets, bird names, or anywhere else that a hyphen is used in common practice. Apteva (talk) 03:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- You're re-arguing the RM. That's not what move review is for. Hot Stop (Edits) 15:32, 24 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The RM clearly demonstrated that the airports all used a hyphen. There were 5 editors supporting the move, and 6 opposing, including some who are solely voting as endash advocates (including, oddly, for Mexican-American War, which not as clearly as airports and comets, but clearly uses a hyphen in common usage), if I counted right. Of those 11, which presented the strongest argument? I say the 47 books that use a hyphen vs. 1 that used an endash are definitive. Expanding the search reveals a continuation of this pattern - selective examples of a dash were presented by one of the editors voting against the move "I'm finding four punctuations. Most common is the hyphen, presumably because it's easiest to type." Yet they ignored the fact that the criteria in choosing titles is to choose the most common, and voted oppose, instead of support. The airports all originally used a hyphen, and if this RM had been to move to an endash, it is clear that it would have been closed as "insufficient support", and therefore, that is where the titles should be restored, to the original titles.[3] [4] [5] Apteva (talk) 14:50, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn Close and move as proposed. This is more then the style guide. I believe that as covered in the discussion, the closer did not give any weight to the fact that these are in fact proper names which require different treatment. The closing comment, insufficient support, clearly provides no indication that the close was anything more then counting !votes. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:16, 28 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Proper names do not require different treatment in punctuation. We routinely adjust the punctuation (and even capitalization) of proper names to fit our guidelines. 01:54, 29 October 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by LtPowers (talk • contribs)
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