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Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise

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Quick results (closer analysis in progress)

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Proposal Supported Opposed Neutral Margin Support % Proposal was
A.1 61 130 18 -69 29% Every spin-out is notable
A.1.2 75 69 6 +6 50% Spin-out articles are treated as sections of a larger work
A.2 82 59 2 +23 57% Every spin-out must prove notability
A.3 51 49 8 +2 47% Subject specific Notability Guidelines (SNGs) can define that some spin-outs are notable
A.4 51 35 6 +16 55% Lists may be exempted from the General notability guideline (GNG)
B.1 26 65 6 -39 27% Articles must meet the GNG and SNGs
B.2 66 17 3 +49 76% SNGs can outline sources that assert notability
B.3 23 31 19 -8 31% SNGs can define when sources probably exist
B.4 14 63 6 -49 17% SNGs are not needed
B.5 14 54 5 -40 19% SNGs override GNG
B.6 40 22 9 +18 56% SNG criteria support reasonable presumptions of notability
B.7 5 1 2 +4 62% SNGs (only) provide subject area interpretation of the GNG

RfC: Notability compromise

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WP:Notability is a guideline that determines which articles should be included in Wikipedia. This guideline has withstood several disputes, although it is unclear exactly how this guideline should be interpreted. The General Notability Guideline states that a topic is notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject (or, more succinctly, coverage in reliable third-party sources). Even though editors generally accept this as true, there are two issues without a clear consensus:

  1. What is the notability of a "spin-out" article? Does it need reliable third-party sources, or can it inherit notability from a parent article?
  2. What is the relationship between WP:Notability and specific guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people)? To what extent can subject-specific guidelines re-write or override the General Notability Guideline?

For the sake of this discussion, it is important to ignore Wikipedians who abuse this guideline to delete articles that are actually notable, or keep information that is clearly not notable. Yes, abuse is a legitimate problem. But we cannot target abuse of the guideline until we have defined its proper use.

How to discuss

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  • Focus on the spirit of each proposal, rather than the exact letter. Wording can be tweaked as needed.
    • In supporting the spirit of a proposal, you are encouraged to offer wording or technical changes that will refine a proposal to achieve its spirit.
  • Be flexible and open to compromise. Literally every editor has their own interpretation of notability, but consensus is impossible if every person insists on their own viewpoint.
  • Stay on topic. Focus on the main two issues with notability. Further discussion about indirectly related issues should be placed elsewhere, perhaps on the talk page.
  • Wikipedians are encouraged to support more than one proposal, even if you support one more strongly than another.
  • Be conscious of WP:civility and Wikipedia:Etiquette. This is not a vote, so don't make multiple votes on the same proposal, let alone with multiple accounts. Work towards consensus.

Events leading to this RFC (why this RFC is important and necessary)

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In recent months, discussions on notability have become more frequent and contentious. There have been literally dozens of theories of how the notability guideline should be interpreted. However, virtually every attempt at a compromise has faced resistance. As such, most discussions about the finer details of notability end in "no consensus".

The lack of consensus has prompted this RFC. Wikipedians from all points of view have tried to find a middle ground. From the dozens of interpretations of our guidelines, only a few have gained enough support that it would be possible for them to be supported by the larger Wikipedia community. We hope that one of these proposals will be adopted to clarify central issues with the notability guidelines, and allow other discussions to move forward.

Terminology

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  • "Appropriate sources": shorthand for "significant coverage in reliable third-party sources". These are sources that help an article meet the GNG.
  • "GNG": the General Notability Guideline. This says that "if a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable." It also defines words such as "significant", "reliable source", "independent", and "presumed".
  • "SNG": the subject-specific notability guidelines such as WP:MUSIC and WP:ATHLETE.
  • "Spin-out" or "Sub-article": an article that is created by splitting a long section out from another article. For the purposes of this discussion, it does not refer to the technology of the use of subpages.
  • "RFC": Request for Comment, a discussion that Wikipedians use to resolve disputes among smaller groups of editors.

Issue A: Notability of "spin-out" articles

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Issue: Wikipedians dispute whether every article must prove its own notability, or if notability of one topic can allow several articles to claim notability. On one hand, Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia: there is no practical limit to the number of topics it can cover. On the other hand, it is unclear how a verifiable article is to be written without coverage in reliable third-party sources.

Proposal A.1: Every spin-out is notable

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Proposal: A spin-out article is treated as a section of its parent article. If a parent article is supported by reliable third-party sources, then its sub-articles do not need reliable third-party sources to qualify for inclusion. A sub-article is notable when it extends one section of a notable parent article.


Rationale: It is not desirable to delete sub articles with a lack of appropriate sources. It makes more sense to treat those articles as extended components of their parent articles. Splitting content from an article into sub-articles is a practice recommended by the recommended length of articles and summary style approach. By treating sub-articles as though they were sections in the larger article, this would allow editors to write detailed articles on specialized topics.

Proposal A.1.2 Spin-out articles are treated as sections of a larger work

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Proposal: Sub-articles of a notable parent topic are permissible when the same content could realistically be expected to appear in the parent topic's article, if length and structure were not an issue (i.e. the content is relevant to the notable topic, verifiable, and encyclopedic - not original research, speculative, instructional, or indiscriminate).


Rationale: Long standing guidelines like WP:SS, and principles like Wiki is not paper, encourage comprehensive encyclopedic treatment of articles. When acceptable content becomes unmanageable in one article, deleting that encyclopedic information should not be Wikipedia's reaction. Rather, the content should be split apart across multiple articles. Sometimes this can create sub-articles that are on topics not inherently notable (receiving significant coverage in a third party source). This proposal allows the good information to remain on Wikipedia while discouraging an "inherited" mentality. A neighbor's dog is not suddenly notable, nor deserves an article, because both Dog, Poodle, and Earth are notable. Content on the neighbor's dog would never pass the litmus test of being in those articles in the first place.

Proposal A.2: Every spin-out must prove notability

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Proposal: The notability requirement applies to every article, every time, and sub-articles must assert notability of their own subject. If they can't, and the parent article is becoming bloated with information about it, it's time to trim, not to split.


Rationale: Our notability guidelines are essential to maintain all of Wikipedia's high standards. An article with zero reliable third-party sources cannot meet our policy on verifiability, which says that "if no reliable, third-party sources can be found for an article topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it." Without reliable third-party sources, an article may also violate other policies about what Wikipedia is not.

Proposal A.3: SNGs can define that some spin-outs are notable

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Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (people) or WP:Notability (music) can define what subtopics inherit notability from a main topic. A specific topic can inherit notability from a larger topic under clearly defined conditions. That is, in clearly defined special cases, notability can be inherited in the absence of reliable third-party sources.


Rationale: This would clarify the existing relationship between the general notability guideline (GNG) and other subject specific notability guidelines (SNGs). Our current SNGs declare specific cases where an article without reliable third-party sources can inherit notability from another notable article. For example, WP:Notability (people) suggests that an entertainer may be notable if they have a significant role in multiple notable productions. Also, WP:Notability (music) suggests that an album may be notable if the artist who produced it is notable. Thus, SNGs should continue to define specific cases where a sub-article of a notable article can be considered notable.

Proposal A.4: Lists may be exempted from the GNG

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Proposal: A spin-out article in the form of a list can be considered exempt from the GNG, instead relying directly on primary, secondary, and tertiary sources, some of which might normally be considered of trivial nature. For example: a list of episodes; a cast list; a character list; or some other facet specifically suited to list-form presentation (e.g.) list of countries. If a parent article is supported by reliable third-party sources, then list-form sub-articles do not necessarily need reliable third-party sources to qualify for inclusion.


Rationale: Lists of characters and episodes are informative for readers, but often can grow too large for a parent article as they gain in comprehensiveness. It is not desirable to delete such list-form sub articles with a lack of appropriate sources. It makes more sense to treat these list-form articles as extended components of their parent articles. Splitting content from an article into list-form sub-articles is a practice recommended by the recommended length of articles and summary style approach. By allowing list-form articles to be considered a part of the main article with relevant information grouped in a more accessible manner, space is allowed for more detail to be covered in the parent article, and the readers needs are still met.

Additional comments on issue A

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Issue B: Relationship between GNG and SNGss

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Issue: Wikipedians dispute the relationship between the general notability guideline and the specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people). This depends on the flexibility of the GNG, and whether SNGs can extend notability to a wider range of articles.

Proposal B.1: Articles must meet the GNG and SNGs

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Proposal: An article is notable if it meets the general notability guideline. Additional guidelines which may prevent a topic from being considered notable are listed in the specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people).


Rationale: This proposal would clarify that every article must pass the general notability guideline. It would also prevent individual projects from writing guidelines that favor inclusion of their material.

Proposal B.2: SNGs can outline sources that assert notability

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Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people) should be allowed to clarify the kinds of sources that can assert notability for specific areas of interest.


Rationale: This reflects and cements the current practice. The general notability guideline requires that any topic have significant coverage in reliable third-party sources. When we think of sources, we think of journals, books, academic articles, and so on. But we also have WP:Notability (music) that says notability can be asserted from "sources" such as having a certified gold record in one country, or charting a hit on a national music chart. These provide an alternative objectively verifiable standard to show notability, other than research from reliable third-party sources. This would clarify the relationship between the general notability guideline and specific notability guidelines, which is not explicitly stated as of yet.

Proposal B.3: SNGs can define when sources probably exist

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Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people) can define objective evidence that would show that sufficient reliable third-party sources probably exist. However, every article still requires appropriate sources, and the specific guidelines cannot mandate inclusion in the absence of sources.


Rationale: This reflects and cements the current practice. Many of the subguidelines for notability offer alternative criteria for articles that might not otherwise meet the general notability guideline. For example, WP:Notability (music) that says that any artist with a certified gold record may be notable. This simplifies the burden of finding reliable third-party sources to verify an article, while still requiring that all articles are properly verified.

Proposal B.4: SNGs are not needed

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Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:Notability (music) and WP:Notability (people) really serve no purpose beyond WP:N. One consistent and universal guideline will be sufficient.


Rationale: These subject specific guidelines generally evolved prior to the adoption of WP:N and are now obsolete. Most of these came to "consensus" when few people were paying attention. The problems are: (1) the methodology is inconsistent among the subject specific guidelines which leads to confusion, (2) topics overlap subject specific guidelines which creates further confusion, and (3) special interest groups can gain control over subject specific guidelines by dominating the discussion and claiming a local consensus. In all cases the benefit does not justify the harm to the project.

Proposal B.5: SNGs override GNG

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Proposal: Specific notability guidelines such as WP:MUSIC and WP:Notability (people) override the general notability guideline, WP:N in areas where specific notability guidelines are applicable. That is, if an article on a topic covered by a specific notability guideline passes WP:N but does not pass the specific notability guideline in question, the topic is deemed not notable. Similarly, if an article on a topic covered by a specific notability guideline passes that specific notability guideline in question but does not pass WP:N, the topic is deemed notable.


Rationale: As Wikipedia expands and matures and as more topics are covered, specific standards are needed to deal with specific situations that vary widely over different subjects, that appear and are constantly debated in AfDs and that need stable solutions for the project to function smoothly. It is no longer possible to use "one size fits all" approach to notability. The practical utility and importance of WP:N is decreasing and the practical utility and relative importance of SNGs is increasing. Many subject-specific issues of relative weight of various types of sources and also of what kind of coverage/evidence is required to demonstrate notability need to be addressed by SNGs. In some cases, e.g. with local politicians and local public officials, it is necessary for the relevant SNGs (such as WP:BIO) to have a more restrictive standard than the plain reading of WP:N provides. In other cases, such as with athletes, books and academics, SNGs may and do specify criteria that are, in certain situations less restrictive than the plain reading of WP:N provides. A local city councilman in a town of 20,000 people should not be considered notable if the only coverage he received is in the local town newspaper. An athlete who won an olympic medal in a fairly obscure sport is notable even if one cannot find substantial newscoverage about that athlete. An academic who is a fellow of the Royal Society is notable even if a biographical newsarticle about him/her is not available. An academic should not be considered notable if the only significant coverage he received is in the local college newspaper and there is no other substantial evidence of his research having made substantial impact in his field. And so on. WP:N is still quite important, since lots of topics are not covered by SNGs for the moment.

Proposal B.6: SNG criteria support reasonable presumptions of notability

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Proposal: Subject notability guidelines act as complementary criteria to the general notability guideline. Meeting SNG criteria does not exempt an article from merge discussions or other common means of reaching consensus about content. Instead, they offer criteria that support a reasonable presumption that sufficient sources exist to support an article. Failed efforts to find appropriate sources should be weighed on balance with the presumption that they exist.


Rationale: There is no deadline, so rational suppositions about article potential are appropriate. Notability is the presumption that sufficient independent sources exist to satisfy the content principles of Wikipedia. The general notability guideline is the most direct way of forming that presumption. The subject guidelines provide additional sensible reasons for holding such a presumption. SNGs were originally written by experienced AfD editors reviewing their institutional memory, noting general indicators of article viability. A merge discussion and consensus remains a viable option in cases where time has been allowed for improvement, editors have exercised due diligence in searching for sources, and it seems evident that sufficient sources are not available (e.g. the Pokemon character merge).

Proposal B.7: SNGs (only) provide subject area interpretation of the GNG

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Proposal: SNGs cannot modify the GNG; they can neither weaken nor strengthen the GNG. SNGs should (only) provide assistance to editors to interpret subject matter against the GNG, and support the consistent application of the GNG between disparate domains of knowledge, for example, Music versus Law enforcement agency vesus Geography versus Sport, etc.

Rationale: As Wikipedia expands and matures and as more topics are covered, subject specific area assistance is needed to deal with specific situations that vary widely over different subjects, that appear and are constantly debated in AfDs and that need stable solutions for the project to function smoothly. The practical utility of WP:N is decreasing, but its fundamentals are as still as important as always. The practical utility of SNGs is increasing. Many subject-specific issues of relative weight of various types of sources and also of what kind of coverage/evidence is required to demonstrate notability need to be addressed by SNGs.

Additional comments on issue B

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No additional comments here

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Due to scope and size concerns, do not add any further comments outside these two issues here.