Wikipedia:Peer review/Death of Kevin Gately/archive1

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Death of Kevin Gately[edit]

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I've listed this article for peer review because it's an interesting piece of London history and sits in counterpoint to the death of Blair Peach. I'm thinking of FAC after this, but I'm not sure yet. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley[edit]

I started my read-through with an unsettling feeling that I'd reviewed this article already, but when I saw the name Blair Peach the penny dropped. Both very sad narratives, and both treated with sympathy and scrupulous balance. (You may take it as the highest of compliments that faulty memory told me that the Blair Peach article was by Brian Boulton.) I have only a few comments – nothing of substance, merely drafting points.

  • Lead
  • "support of the repatriation of immigrants" – I think they meant compulsory or even forcible repatriation, and if so I'd use one or other adjective here.
  • Liberation and the National Front
  • "The president of the organisation was Lord Brockwell" – poor old Fenner! You have rechristened him. He was Lord Brockway, a splendid and upright old boy.
  • "The National Front ... opposition to Britain's membership of the European Economic Community" – Just a passing comment, nothing to do with the review: I had forgotten this. Lucky us to have Farrage, Mogg et al upholding the NF's tradition.
  • Planning
  • "Harold Wilson, the Prime Minister" – capital letters for job title? I would, but I don't think Wikipedia does.
  • It should be really, but it's an area where the MOS contradicts itself badly: this says "Directly juxtaposed with the person's name, such words begin with a capital letter" and gives an example of "David Cameron was Prime Minister", while this says "Theresa May was the prime minister". The only difference is that when writing in good English (ie. using the definite article), one has to then use lower case. The mind boggles...
  • "Syd Bidwell, a Labour Party Member of Parliament" – scope for some lower-casing there too, methinks.
  • 15 June 1974
  • "He had allocated four foot police serials" – I had a fleeting vision of midget coppers, and I think a hyphen in "foot-police" would help the reader's eye along, here and similarly later, where the vision of seven-foot policemen is equally nonplussing.
  • Re-reading, I had a view of quadrupeds and hexapeds... SchroCat (talk) 12:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "four to Liberation march" – missing a definite article?
  • Marches to Red Lion Square; first disturbance
  • "most were in their late teens and early twenties, many of whom were students" – this doesn't seem to me to flow properly, and I think you want something on the lines of "most were in their late teens and early twenties; many were students"
  • Aftermath
  • "The report, by the journalists Peter Chippindale and Martin Walker" – you've already introduced us to these two gents, and provided blue links to their articles.
  • Legacy
  • "For the remainder of the 1970s, Liberation found its ability to lead ... The IMG no longer relied on mass demonstrations to get their message across" – as you know, I am perfectly happy with either using plural pronouns and verbs for organisations, à l'anglaise or using singular ones à l'américaine, but you didn't oughter mix them. One or the other throughout, I'd say.
  • "As, although they raised their vote in some seats, their share of the national vote remained consistent." – this sentence seems to have declared its independence from the preceding one, to which the "as" naturally attaches it.
  • "The University of Warwick has ... the union have" – as above, toing and froing between singular and plural.

That's my lot. This is a fine article, and it is a pleasure to be reviewing a SchroCat article again. Please ping me when you go to FAC. – Tim riley talk 17:30, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Afterthought, after another read-through: I'm not quite happy about the caption for the lead image: "was killed" suggests inflicted violence, and the article shows that there is no evidence of that, and so perhaps "died" might be more neutral? − Tim riley talk 18:02, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many thanks, Tim riley - all duly attended to. I'm much obliged for your thoughts. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:12, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Harry[edit]

Hey SchroCat, just a few thoughts from reading through:

  • Is his place of study, or indeed education in general, relevant? First-sentence relevant? Would anything have been different if he was a first-year student of English Literature at Reading?
  • petition to Harold Wilson, the Prime Minister, MOS:JOBTITLES would have that in sentence case
  • Try to use active voice wherever possible: The London Area Council of Liberation was contacted by a journalist, it was decided[by whom?] that entry to the hall for the Liberation meeting was to be by the back door
  • I think I've caught all these, but I'll go through it pre-FAC to make sure. - SchroCat (talk) 14:19, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would shorten notes d and e and incorporate them into the prose.
  • I've struggled to know what to shorten, as it's all good stuff, so I've incorporated both as a separate paragraph - I hope this works for you! - SchroCat (talk) 14:30, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • He fell sideways as his knees buckled" you need a ref after a quote.
  • Waddington needs an introduction
  • The increasingly provocative actions by the National Front continued through the 1970s led to what Peter Waddington describes as "a predictably violent response" from the militant left.[74] Violence from both sides in Birmingham, Manchester, the East End of London (all 1977) and in 1979 in Southall, which led to the death of Blair Peach. doesn't quite flow; you could just replace the full stop with an emdash if you're saying that the "violence from both sides" was the "predictably violent response".
  • You give subtitles for some books but not for others.

Not a lot to criticise really. Should do fine at FAC. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:27, 14 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks Harry - that's great. I think I've caught everything, but I'll go over it again pre-FAC, particularly focusing on the passive voice part. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:32, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Thinker78[edit]

The first thing that struck me when reading the first paragraph was the question of who is Kevin Gately and whether the article should be a bio. After I came to terms that it was an event and skimmed through the article, I pondered if the article should be about the death of Kevin Gately or the Red Lion Square disorders.

If it is about the first one, then I think there should be more correlation of the content with the death of Kevin Gately. Much of the content made me feel lost and thinking more of the disorders or the protest itself. Maybe the article should have more continuity in the form of less emphasis on certain details. Check the article about the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln. Most of its content is firmly related to the topic and has a strong continuity. Thinker78 (talk) 01:24, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thanks for your thoughts. I think the Lincoln article is an entirely different situation (a one-off assassination that was a sub-set of a much larger Conclusion of the American Civil War on an individual who has dozens of articles about him, his family, his life, sexuality, speeches, elections etc - so many articles that he even needs his own navbox); there are even eight articles in the navbox about the assassination. This is a situation much more like the Death of Blair Peach or the Murder of Yvonne Fletcher, where a single death of an ordinary person was part of something wider, but those deaths (more so for Peach than Fletcher) are what make the situation most notable and their deaths are what led to the later inquests etc. Thanks - SchroCat (talk) 11:51, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    The article about the Assassination of Abraham Lincoln is indeed about a much more prominent and notable person who has dozens of articles about him. I have to point out that its size is about 5,000 words while the Death of Kevin Gately is about 4,000 words. I notice that the Death of Blair Peach (a featured article) is also around 5,000 words.
    If this page is based on a Featured Article and have a very similar structure, then it has a good standard. My observations are simply a reflection of my perception and criticism of said structure, even if it's based on an FA. I on occasion have corrected first sentences in FAs that didn't follow relevant guidance in the Manual of Style. But in this case it may just be a matter of personal taste. Cheers! Thinker78 (talk) 18:09, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from HAL[edit]

Feel free to ignore any of these, particularly any arising from a lack of familiarity with British English:

  • I might link Red Lion Square in the lead image caption
  • localised support --> How does that differ from "local support"
  • I might read "local support" to mean "in the locality of Red Lion Square", whereas "localised support" would - to me at least - suggest local clusters or support. - SchroCat (talk) 13:40, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Labour Party Member of Parliament Syd Bidwell Bit of a sea of blue
  • by CPGB members by 1967 --> bit repetitive, but if there's no way to shift the sentence about without making it awkward, no worries
  • 10–12,000 --> I understand you're not, but it could seem like you're saying there's at least ten BNF members (also in Note b)
  • and informed about the National Front's plans should there be an "it" after informed?
  • prepared to use violence against their political opponents to gain an advantage --> is "to gain an advantage" redundant? Versus "to gain a disadvantage"?
  • Metropolitan Police has a duplicate link ...and a triplicate link
  • I would link Subdural hematoma
  • The union have I'm assuming that's British vernacular?
  • It is. While Americans insist on the singular for an institution, we are happy with plural pronouns and verbs, given groups and institutions are made up of multiple individuals. - SchroCat (talk) 13:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • when two looters had been shot Should that be "were shot"?

That's all I got. Nice work - very clean. ~ HAL333 01:52, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Many thanks HAL333. All tidied up per your comments, except where commented on. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 13:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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