Wikipedia:Peer review/Fanny Bullock Workman/archive2

This peer review discussion has been closed.

Fanny Bullock Workman

Previous peer review

I've listed this article for peer review because it was written by our dear departed User:Wadewitz, who was unable to continue her first PR for this remarkable article. This article is exemplary, and an example of the high quality of work she modeled for the rest of the WP community. She would've wanted it to be thoroughly reviewed, and brought to each stage of the process before FA, so to honor her memory, I'm resubmitting it here.

Thanks, Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments

I have carried out a prose review, together with a little copyediting on minor issues and typos. I could have made a few more fixes, but I in general prefer that these be considered by the editor or editors that are assuming temporary stewardship of this article, so I have listed them here. I haven't looked at reference formats, but that can just as well be done at FAC if/when the article is nominated.

• Lead:

• Although "Himalaya" is correct, the more normal form is "Himalayas" which is what I think most readers would expect to see (certainly from a UK perspective). It is worth considering this change.

I had this question when I reviewed this article, and Wadewitz's response was that the correct usage was "Himalaya". Perhaps someone with a bit more expertise can give some input?

I'd be inclined to trust Adrianne's judgement. Brianboulton (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• "These early books about their bicycling tours were quite popular." A somewhat indeterminate passing observation, of no great value. Suggest remove.

I think that this statement refers to the discussion in the text about how the Workmans' travel books, which were less technical and scientific, were more popular than their mountaineering narratives because they felt compelled to include scientific information in them to appeal to organizations like the Royal Geographical Society, which made them less accessible to the general public. I don't think that this specific information belongs in the lead, but what if we added something like: "Their early bicycle tour narratives were better received than their mountaineering books."

That is a much more definite statement, and I'd say OK to use, provided fully supported in the text. Brianboulton (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

I believe that it is, so I went ahead and made the change. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Third para: "they escaped to the Himalaya". The first mention of the subjects in a new paragraph should be by name or specific designation, not pronoun. Hence "the Workmans" or "the couple", not "they".

Done.

• Close repetition of "struggled" in the third paragraph should be avoided

Done.

• Early life

• The tripartite wikilinking of "Pilgrims", "Worcester" and "Massachusetts" is a trifle confusing. I assume the meaning is the Pilgrims' Colony of Worcester in Massachusetts; if so could the links be rearranged to make this clearer? And do we wikilink US states?

I've fixed it; I'll let someone else chime in about wikilinking states, but I'm inclined to keep it as is.

• "Jenny Ernie-Steighner argues..." I'd probably change "argues" to "asserts" or "suggests", since "argues" implies that the point was disputed.

Changed to the simplest "stated". ;)

• Move to Europe and cycling tours

• "due to" is a formulation best avoided; I'd make that "In 1889, the Workman family moved to Germany, citing William's health."

I agree.

• The second sentence needs neither parentheses nor "however"

I changed it a bit further, by combining the first two sentences like this: "In 1889, the Workman family moved to Germany, citing William's health, although Pauly speculates that William's health may have been a pretext for the move as he recovered "surprisingly fast".

• "as one scholar has put it" – the unnamed scholar's comment is not individually cited, but I take it that it is covered by [12], which cites to Luree Miller. If this is so, "one scholar" should be replaced by a specific attribution to Miller.

Done.

• the wording "in her book about women explorers" is unnecessary

Actually, I disagree, since it provides the qualification.

• "As Stephanie Tingley writes in her encyclopedia entry..." I changed this formulation, which I believe is weak, but was promptly reverted. The problem with the present form is that, rather than simply reporting what the writer says, we are making ourselves complicit with the writer's view, which is against the principle of neutrality. For this reason I have always deprecated this usage in featured article prose, and I think the point is worth reconsideration.

I dunno. I mean, I can't access the Tingley source in either Amazon.com or Google Books, so I can't confirm if it's non-neutral. I'm inclined to trust that the inference is a valid one, though. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:12, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm not disputing he neutrality of the source, nor the validity of the statement. This is merely a question of neutral presentation within our article. To me, the formulation "As Stephanie Tingley says..." carries a silent corollary: "and we agree". We should report what the source says, without the compromising "as". Brianboulton (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Okay then. This is what I did: "Stephanie Tingley writes in her encyclopedia entry on Workman's travel writing that Workman described an "implicit feminist criticism..." Hmm, I wonder if this formulation--using "as" in this way--is common in much of academic writing. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

What you have now is fine. I'm not sure whether the "as" formulation is common in scholarly articles. But scholarly articles are not the same as encyclopedia articles - they can take standpoints, agree with or refute other scholars, etc. We are bound by rules of strict neutrality. Brianboulton (talk) 20:47, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• "as well as the Jungfrau"; it is not clear what this phrase is an addition to – was Fanny one of the first women to climb both the Matterhorn and the Jungfrau, or did Taugwalder and Whymper make the first ascents of both the Matterhorn and the Jungfrau? If, as I believe, the former is the case, a little rewriting for clarity is required.

This is what I did; please tell me what you think: "She also was one of the first women to climb the Jungfrau and the Matterhorn. Peter Taugwalder, who had made the first ascent with Edward Whymper, was her guide up the Matterhorn."

Excellent Brianboulton (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• Cycling tour of India

• I'd probably say Burma rather than Myanmar, which was not in common use before 1989

Okay.

• Labor issues

• Karakoram here, but Karakorum earlier. Both are correct, but spelling should be consistent

Used "Karakoram", since that's the spelling the Workman source uses.

• "The most serious problems were labor problems, however" – repetition, and the "however" looks tacked on. Perhaps "The most serious problems arose over labor".

Done.

• Mountaineering in the Himalaya

• "It was after their first trip to the Himalaya that the Workmans became entranced with climbing and mountaineering." A little journalistic, not the best prose. Suggest remove "It was" and "that" from the sentence.

Done.

• "Over the span of 14 years..." It would be helpful to have a date range for these 14 years

This parallels how the Adventure Journal source puts it, so I'm inclined to keep it as is. The source does say that they took their first trip in 1898, so if this is important to you, I suppose I can change it.

• "They reached an 18,600 feet (5,700 m) summit, which Fanny named Siegfried Horn after her son, giving her an altitude record for women at the time." Needs some reorganising to avoid the impression that the naming gave Fanny the altitude record.

My attempt at correcting this: "They reached Siegfried Horn, an 18,600 feet (5,700 m) summit that Fanny named after her son, which gave her an altitude record for women at the time." Is that correct?

Not quite. I suggest: "They reached an 18,600 feet (5,700 m) summit, giving Fanny an altitude record for women at the time. She named the summit Siegfried Horn, after her son". Brianboulton (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Yours is so much better, thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• "As Pauly writes..." – above comment applies

Not sure what you're asking for here. Pauly is used extensively in this article, and this isn't the first time he's quoted.

It's the "as" that bothers me, as explained above. Brianboulton (talk) 21:38, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah got it, thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• "Her talk was even mentioned in The London Times. The newspaper is The Times, not The London Times, and the "even" is a bit wide-eyed for an encyclopedia

Done.

• "As Isserman and Weaver explain history of Himalayan mountaineering" – the words "in their" are missing after "explain"

Done.

• Pinnacle Peak and altitude record

• The Pinnacle Peak climb needs to be dated (or at least given a year)

Done.

• "Isserman and Stewart" should be "Isserman and Weaver"

Done. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 00:07, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

• "As both Fanny and William had now climbed above the 23,000 feet (7,000 m) mark (they believed)..." I think this should be tweaked; the parenthetical qualification comes too late. I suggest something like: "Believing that they had now both climbed above the 23,000 feet (7,000 m) mark , Fanny and William 'moved to establish themselves as the foremost authorities on thin air'."
• "As Pauly explains" occurs twice in the paragraph

Got 'em!

• Hispar and Siachen Glaciers

• The mention of "Italian porters" rather raised my eyebrows. Access to the source might explain what they were doing there.

The source talks about how the Workmans hired porters from Italy instead of the local porters they couldn't get along with, something that's mentioned earlier in this article. How about: "They were the first to explore its many side glaciers; the maps created by the Italian porters they hired helped map the region for the first time."

Slightly different, to avoid "maps...map": "They were the first to explore its many side glaciers; the Italian porters they hired helped map the region for the first time." Brianboulton (talk) 14:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

• "The Workmans' exploration of the Rose Glacier and the 45 miles (72 km)-long Siachen Glacier in Baltistan around Masherbrum in 1911 and 1912 was "the crowning achievement of their careers" as it was "not only the longest and widest subpolar glacier in the world" but also "the least explored and least accessible" at the time." Two glaciers explored: to which do the "longest, widest, least explored" descriptions apply?

I'm somewhat certain the confusion is that "Siachen" means "Rose"; Miller seems to use the names interchangeably. I think we should remove mention of the Rose Glacier.

That would seem to be the best idea. Brianboulton (talk) 14:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

• 45 mile length mentioned twice in quick succession

I could either remove the 2nd occurrence, or I could replace "45-mile glacier" with "Siachen".

Fine - up to you. Brianboulton (talk) 14:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

• Later life and death

• "After their 1908 trip..." – a rather loose description for a trip that lasted several years, at least until 1912.

How about if we changed it to: "After completing their explorations of the Hispar and Siachen Glaciers..." or is that too repetitive?

• "Royal Geographic Society", previously (and correctly) referred to as the Royal Geographical Society

Fixed.

• A mention of when William died would be appropriate in this section

Actually, I was curious about that myself, and then are some conflicts about the exact date of William's death, although Isserman says that William lived until he was 91. I imagine that Wadewitz omitted this information on purpose, although the image of her monument that was added today states the date of his death. I think that's probably enough.

• Can we clarify whether she left $125,000 to each of the four named colleges or as a shared bequest?

Not sure that we can; the sources that support this amount aren't accessible. I think that this is a case of needing to AGF.

• Women in climbing

• "as one scholar put it" – that pesky anonymous scholar again

Fixed.

• "As she puts it..." – suggest reconsider

Done; went with the simpler "Colley states..."

• "In her encyclopedia entry about Workman, Tingley..." As we know that the encyclopedia in question is the Dictionary of Literary Biography, perhaps say so.

Done.

• Exploration of the Himalaya

• Regarding Isserman and Weaver, the phrase "in their history of Himalayan mountaineering" has already been used, and is unnecessary here.

Removed phrase. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I think one general area that could be strengthened is a more specific dating of certain episodes, but in general this is well up to Adrianne's standards of writing, and I read it with considerable sadness. Brianboulton (talk) 16:55, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your input, Brian; I'm sure that Adrianne would've appreciated it as well. Yes, I feel you, I've been sad as I've worked on this as well, but what a wonderful way to honor her memory. Should I go ahead and submit this to GAC, or does anyone else want to chime in? Personally, I think it's more than ready. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 22:32, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't think you'll get much by way of further comments at this peer review. My peer review was to FA standards, and I'd have no hesitation in sending it straight to FAC where I think it will do well, but if you wish to use the GAN stage, then by all means nominate it there. A shoo-in, I'd say. Brianboulton (talk) 14:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree that this article is already FA-quality, but it's already been established that we should honor Adrianne's wishes and get as many reviews as we can. I'll close out this PR, and then submit to GA. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 15:17, 18 April 2014 (UTC)