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Gioachino Rossini[edit]

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Rossini's life was unusual: years of highly productive success followed by years of unexplained silence; in between composing operas, his private life was fairly colourful. He was seen in the early to mid- 20th century as something of a one-hit wonder, The Barber of Seville being his only opera to avoid neglect, but in recent years his other operas have been much revived. Smerus and I have been working on an overhaul of the article for some time, and we think it is now at a level for a run at FAC. To that end, any comments, queries or suggestions for improvement will be gladly received. – Tim riley talk 09:13, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of images

Adam Cuerden[edit]

Well, the text looks quite good, but I could criticise a lot about the images. The lead image is a way-too-light version of an image floating around the web in almost universally darker and less cropped versions, the featured picture of Rossini is meanwhile the last one of him shown. A lot of the images are cropped oddly, and sometimes excessively lightened and modified, e.g. File:Rossini soutenant Manuel Garcia-etc.png which is taken from the not-at-all-brown-inked https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8420186g/f1.item.r=Le%20Barbier%20de%20S%C3%A9ville%20ROssini.zoom - is this meant to be an artistic recolouring, or did something go wrong with the image capture? In any case, it's a poor representation of the original.
It's nothing that can't readily be fixed, but I'm not quite sure what happened there, and not understanding what happened always makes me worried I'm missing something. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 10:45, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, also, and I realise I've just restored the image and nominated it for featured picture, so this may be a weird time to ask this, but.... Why Le comte Ory as the only opera to get an image? Is that the opera you particularly wanted, or is it just the only one you found at the time? If you want others, I will find them for you. Rossini's operas are criminally under-illustrated. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 10:48, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Adam CuerdenThanks for this, please feel free to fix any degraded images, we should be very grateful. If you have suggestions for images of other operas, do please tell. E.g. we could replace the poster for Tancredi with a pic from a Tancredi production. Or maybe there's some good images relating to productions of 'Tell' or The Barber which we could use? --Smerus (talk) 12:55, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Smerus and Tim riley: I've restored three of the images now - well, four if you count that featured photograph from years ago. The Le comte Ory image is currently passing at FPC. I don't think it's worth nominating the image of him holding up the three singers, as I don't think it will pass, but it is fully restored. The meeting with George IV is restored and nominated, we'll see how that goes. I've uploaded a larger version of the Tamborossini one, but I haven't restored it yet. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 11:00, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've now finished what I could do to images already in the article. One might be able to find higher-resolution versions of the paintings, and one could replace that photograph from 1850, but that's about it. This leads us to the new images. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 14:05, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Tancredi[edit]

Two costumes from 1840: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b70017790.r=tancredi?rk=21459;2 and https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b7001841w.r=tancredi?rk=42918;4 as well as a largely-unusable sketch of a set design, https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105433672.r=tancredi?rk=472105;2 Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 13:27, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Garcia as Tancredi could be good (no. 1); no. 3 is I think from Campra's Tancrede, not our guy's. Nos. 1 and 2 should anyway be put into Tancredi.--Smerus (talk) 14:56, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Smerus and Tim riley: What production is this? The article on Tancredi claims there were no productions in the 19th century after 1829. This seems to be contradicting evidence. Admittedly, it could easily have been published after the fact - the first is labelled No. 1369 and the second No. 1370, so they're part of a MASSIVE set - but I'd really like to get this right. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 17:07, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The uncited statement in the Tancredi article is wrong. I know not of Parisian productions, but Tancredi was given at Covent Garden in March 1848. (See The Era, 12 March 1848, p. 11). I don't see any reason to doubt the BNF's statement that the picture shows Pauline Garcia in the piece in 1840. But I don't think we have room for this or any more pictures in any case, though it is kind of Adam to go to all this trouble. Tim riley talk 18:16, 26 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Barber of Seville[edit]

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8424458f.r=Barbier%20rossini?rk=107296;4 https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105348814/f1.item.r=Almaviva.zoom https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6400607m/f1.item.r=Almaviva.zoom I think the first is the best. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 13:27, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree first is best, and would be nice for this article. But both could go into The Barber of Seville which presently only has a crap nondescript image which I am not sure is free use anyway.--Smerus (talk) 14:56, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Smerus I think you have a better eye for a picture than I do, so I invite you to take your pick, here and throughout the article. I'll shout if I disagree, but I doubt I will. Tim riley talk 11:04, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Tim riley and Smerus: Barber should be up today. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 16:41, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Place it where thou wilt. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 20:01, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Adam, for all the trouble you have taken. Tim riley talk 20:46, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Guilliame Tell[edit]

I'll come back to this one, as there's a lot of intermixing with the play, and I want to give the right ones. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 13:27, 21 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. I'd like some additional eyes on this. There's a series of illustrations definitely from the opera, which are a little shit.

Contemporary costumes, not very attractive compared to the other costume illustrations if you ask me:

Better contemporary costumes:

Sixteen costumes: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8454519h.r=Guillaume%20Tell?rk=579402;0

Chorus costumes + 4 nice illustrations of the opera: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b6401891j.r=Guillaume%20Tell?rk=665239;2


Two costumes, albeit not contemporary, but good:

Set designs from a revival:

One actor in a revival:

Decent, but a little weird:

Weird, but cool:


Now, these I'm not entirely convinced about being of the Rossini opera, despite claims:

  • On the back: Paris Opera 1860, trio from Act II. Duprez, Massol and A N Other.--Smerus (talk) 09:03, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Uncertain:

Meh:

  • It's more that I didn't want to have to do it again, you know? ...I'd suggest a second choice for this page, though: We only have costumes for Tancredi, and really should have more variety, so if we have costumes for Tell as well... probably too much. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 11:20, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I add my thanks to Smerus's. Some of these images are quite good. Tim riley talk 09:05, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 00:44, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, now that's interesting. See that shadow on the lower left? That's the rest of the shadow from Mathilde's costume design. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 01:04, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And his shadow goes into Walter's. I think I may be able to reassemble this. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 15:33, 28 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Not that it matters much here, but it's done. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 03:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • v. nice many thanks. I have now shuffled images in article around a bit to avoid overlapping. Thismeans I have axed tit he little pic of Verid, but he only has a bit part in the story.--Smerus (talk) 05:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Lead picture[edit]

  • [[u|Adam Cuerden}}, can we not find a picture of the younger Rossini in his prime (as suggested by Tim riley) to go at the head of the article? The pic you have moved up there, whilst it is very fine, does belong to the old age section where it was originally.
    • It's OK: I've restored the old man image to the appropriate place. We now need to find a new head image or restore the old one. Tim riley talk 11:41, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Also, are you doing versions of https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b70017790.r=tancredi?rk=21459 and https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8424458f.r=Barbier%20rossini?rk=107296 or shall I just upload them to Cpmmons form Gallica? Best, --Smerus (talk) 11:37, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]


We can try to find younger images of Rossini, but it's what's available, to some extent. I just wanted that faded-looking image out, because I hate starting a well-illustrated article with the worst (reproduced) image in it. As for the other images, I'm trying to do this in order, which means the ones in the article first, then switch in more. If you want them up early, feel free: I'll never say no to having someone do the work of documenting them for me. Are you aware of Commons:Gallica? It's instructions for getting the full-resolution versions. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 11:42, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and I did find a much better image for that section. It's slightly misdocumented, it's for the 1869 premiere of the orchestral version - and I'm kind of hoping I can get them to upload a better scan, but https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b9009197r/f1.item.r=Petite%20messe%20solennelle%20rossini.zoom Also https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8426602c/f1.item.r=Petite%20messe%20solennelle%20rossini if that fails. Adam Cuerden (talk)Has about 8.9% of all FPs 11:51, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]


:::Adam I will leave uploading the images to you as I am (over)stretched at present with family and other duties. The 'messe' picture looks good. This picture of Rossini could I think be good for the lead if a better quality version could be found......--Smerus (talk) 13:23, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SC[edit]

I'll make a start shortly on this (I did some minor formatting tweaks a day or so ago), but one thing popped up for me:

  • "Naples and The Barber" section: link and italicise "opere serie" and delink it in the "Early works" section

Back soon. Pip pip - SchroCat (talk) 19:29, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Two issues here on which I'd welcome opinion.
  • Opera seria, opera buffa, etc. - italics or not? At the moment the articles on these and similar topics are titled e.g. Opera buffa, Opera seria (italics), but Opera semiseria, Dramma per musica (upright). Moreover in the texts of these articles both italics and upright are met with. Is there a style ruling on this anywhere? - if not, it's time we set one.
  • In past articles which have gone on to GA/FA, I have linked terms, when they occur in one or more of the lead, Life and Music sections, at the first appearance in each section.--Smerus (talk) 20:09, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're right that we need to have some form of agreement on a wider scale, but you also need to be consistent here - we have both italicised and upright.
  • That's fine (I hadn't noticed they were so far apart, so I've struck the second part). Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:20, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK for this article I'll seek to italicize all terms in Italian.--Smerus (talk) 20:56, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reading through further, I think that's right, on balance: they are foreign terms, but not common enough to pass as being anglicised enough (but what do I know!) - SchroCat (talk) 21:07, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • Can we have a photo in the lead? I really, really don't like the current one (partly because he reminds me of a cross between Mr Punch and a rather odious teacher I once had). The rather lushly shaded one you have in the "Sins of old age" one is particularly fine.
  • Tim riley? As the pic referred to by SC is a featured image in Commons, it could be appropriate.--Smerus (talk) 06:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I had four books from the music library when mugging up on the Life, and read three more at the BL, and all of them used paintings of Rossini in his prime on their dust jackets. I hold no particular brief for the one with the pointy cap, but I think it would be most inappropriate to use a photograph of Rossini decades after he wrote anything he is famous for. The jolly old gent with the wig and paunch is not the Rossini who wrote The Barber. Happy if Adam could find an alternative from Rossini's prime though. Tim riley talk 08:49, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Curiously (to my mind, anyway) two of the biographies have File:Rossini-portrait-0.jpg on their covers, which seems to me to make poor Gioachino look like a cross between Robespierre and Cosmo Lang. Even the Second Empire photograph would be preferable to that. Tim riley talk 09:48, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
1810-15 picture now in situ.--Smerus (talk) 17:14, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • I know it's not long after the lead, but can we have an indication of the DoB? We have to wait until "In 1798, when Rossini was aged six" before we get an indication
First operas
  • Do we have any indication as to an equivalent value for forty scudi?
  • I looked into this when drafting it, and drew a blank. I'll have another look, just in case. Tim riley talk 08:49, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Naples
  • Comma after "Nonetheless", I think?
Vienna and London
1822–1824
  • I always find it a little disconcerting to have a year in the heading, then have an earlier date in the opening line. (And here we refer to a failure from 1819 – three years prior to the title date!) As the uprising in Naples was also 1820, we could stretch the dates back to 1820–1824?
  • Done. I've had to alter the dates on the earlier section too. Tim riley talk 08:49, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm never a fan of a comma after the opening few words of a sentence, but I'd be inclined to use one in "While in Vienna Rossini" before some clot wonders if Vienna Rossini was a sibling
Sin
  • "his Petite messe solennelle, premiered in 1864." "which premiered"?
  • Done--Smerus (talk) 06:01, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • Depends if you think it is a transitive verb. I don't, on the whole. I think to say "it was premiered in 1864" is like saying "it was opened in 1864". I'd prefer to stick with the original. Tim riley talk 09:24, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • On reflection, I don't think "premiere" is quite appropriate for a religious work. I've changed to "first performed". Tim riley talk 09:31, 23 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Done to the start of "Music". So far I've been struggling to find problems to report back on – as the meagre efforts above show. Very readable and interesting, nicely illustrated (although I do agree with Adam above that some of the images are a bit washed out and look badly cropped. He will, no doubt, ensure this is even more beautifully illustrated by the time this comes to FAC).

Back soon with part 2. Pip pip – SchroCat (talk) 21:35, 22 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Part deux
  • We have cantabile and the cabaletta italicised and not: these should be consistently done.
  • There are a few places where logical quoting has been forgotten – again, consistency should prevail
Code Rossini
  • I seem to remember we shouldn't use "The" in headings unless a formal title? I could, of course, be wrong or out of date on that...
    • But you aren't. Still the party line, but I've experimented with pruning the definite article here and it looks a bit forlorn. I'll pass the baton to Smerus on this. Tim riley talk 15:56, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm for leaving 'The'. Budden calls it "The Code Rossini" - I'll put the quote mark before 'The', so that the header becomes a kosher quote.--Smerus (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
        • Clever! Looks excellent and should do the trick. Tim riley talk 18:44, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should "19th century" be hyphenated?
    • Only when used attributively, I think. "A 19th-century work" but "a work from the 19th century". Tim riley talk 15:56, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Structure
  • "in cantabile-caballeta format": I presume "caballetta"?
  • "opera seria" should probably be italicised too

Done to the start of "France": more to come anon. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:55, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

France
  • I thought it was either the Paris Opera (sans accent) or Opéra de Paris?
  • "ranz des vaches": our articles capitalise it as "Ranz des Vaches". I don't suggest you necessarily change it, just to check which is better
    • Grove has it in lower case.--Smerus (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "3-act version" or "three-act version"?
    • For internal consistency, the latter. Changed. Tim riley talk 15:56, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Ironically, this was an era in which Rossini was not to participate.": pernickety, I know, but as this is going to FAC, someone is bound to point out that this should carry a citation.
    • Someone will certainly whinge. But the point is incontestible. I don't think MoS should be used to strangulate any attempt to make prosie a little bit interesting. so i will be WP:BOLD and recommend leaving it.--Smerus (talk) 17:21, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawal
  • "It is neither especially petite (little) nor entirely solennelle": this looks like it is POV without a citation
    • Some corroborative detail here, though using any as a citation might not be ideal. Tim riley talk 15:54, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • Found one which does the trick.--Smerus (talk) 17:13, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Influence
  • "la boutique fantasque" -> "La Boutique fantasque"?
    • You can become dangerously deranged trying to cope with French capitalisation. Either of the above is consistent with French practice. I believe the latter corresponds with the MoS, but the MoS is so widely ignored on this point that I don't think it is of all that much help. For what it's worth I'm with Smerus on the capitalisation here, but I don't know that I'd go to war over it. Tim riley talk 15:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Should "reevaluation" be hyphenated?
    • The OED prefers the hyphen, but admits the unhyphenated form. I've changed, subject to Smerus's approval. Tim riley talk 15:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's it from me. All very nicely done. Please ping if you need any clarification on any of the above – and when you go to FAC, which you certainly should do. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 18:11, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks, SchroCat. We'll go through these points, both enjoyably and profitably I have no doubt. Tim riley talk 21:28, 24 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from KJP1[edit]

It reads to the usual exemplary standard and, as ever with music, I've nothing to offer but a layman's perspective. Nonetheless:

Early life
  • "he set some numbers from a libretto written by Mombelli's wife. Without knowing the plot of the piece, Rossini worked piecemeal, and completed his first operatic score, a two-act operatic dramma serio, Demetrio e Polibio" - not quite getting this. What does piecemeal mean here and it sounds almost as if he stumbled towards Demetrio e by accident? Perhaps he did?
    • I may need to redraw this. Usually a composer sets a whole libretto, so he knows the story, the situation at each point. In this case Rossini was given a song at a time to set, without knowing its context in the drama. Tim riley talk 10:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • I've removed the piecemeal bit. It isn't essential to the main narrative. Tim riley talk 19:34, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Vienna and London: 1820–1824
  • "By early 1820s Rossini was beginning to tire of Naples" - "By the early 1820s..."?
  • "He was prostrated by the Channel crossing, and was unlikely to be enthused by the English weather or English cooking". - Two things - I'm not sure "prostrated" will be clear to many, "The Channel crossing made him sea sick"? And re. the weather and the cooking - first, and I hesitate greatly, is the tense right? "to have been enthused"? Second, I don't have the source, but this sounds a little indefinite. Was he or wasn't he?
  • It was worse than just being seasick. He was absolutely flattened by it (and by train travel when the railways came in.) The source doesn't go so far as to say he hated our cooking, just that he was unlikely to be a fan. On the grammatical point I have cribbed the source's phrasing which I think is right. Your alternative phrasing has two past tenses in it, and although it doesn't jar like a double pluperfect I think there is a difference of nuance. Cf, for instance, "He went to war but was unlikely to die" and "He went to war but was unlikely to have died". Tim riley talk 10:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "where he had felt much more comfortable" - a little weak, "much more at home"?
    • Yes, better.
Paris and final operas: 1824–1829
  • "contract with the French government was negotiated under Louis XVIII" - did Louis actually have anything to do with it, beyond being king when it was drawn up? This suggests to me that he had some involvement?
    • HM certainly had some direct involvement (he personally signed the contract) but I don't know how much. Tim riley talk
  • "an operatic entertainment to celebrate Charles's coronation in June 1825" - our article on Charles X gives the date of his coronation as 29 May 1825, which I think is correct [2]. Or is June the month when the opera was performed?
Early retirement: 1830–1855
  • "The newspaper Le Globe commented..." - link "Le Globe"?
  • "it was rumoured that Eugène Scribe was preparing for him a libretto on Joan of Arc" - "it was rumoured that Eugène Scribe was preparing a libretto for him on Joan of Arc"
  • "where he felt threatened by the insurrectionists" - who are these insurrectionists? "threatened by insurrection"?
Sins of old age: 1855–1868
  • Will the allusion in the title be clear? I personally like it a lot, but I lost my battle for "Citizen Kane's domain" on the grounds that most readers would be confused.
    • Sorry to hear you lost that battle. Must have been after I looked in at the FAC. I think we'll take our chances with this one. I'll stop here and hand over to Smerus, who is O.C. Works. Thank you KJ for some excellent points. Tim riley talk 10:14, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it was a TFA debate. I thought the “whilst” below was unlikely to be yours! KJP1 (talk) 11:22, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The Code Rossini
  • "noting the formulas adopted early on by Rossini in his career and consistently adopted by him thereafter " - to avoid the double 'adopted', perhaps, "noting the formulas adopted early on by Rossini in his career and consistently followed by him thereafter"?
  • "in a nod to the Code Napoléon, the legal system constituted by the French Emperor" - perhaps, "in a reference to the Code Napoléon, the legal system established by the French Emperor"?
  • "When Ricordi issued in the 1850s a publication of Rossini's complete works" - perhaps flip to "When Ricordi issued a publication of Rossini's complete works in the 1850s" or "When, in the 1850s, Ricordi issued a publication of Rossini's complete works"?
Structure
  • "Finales began to "spread backwards", to include in a musically continuous chain, accompanied throughout by orchestra, a series of sections, each with its own characteristics of speed and style, mounting to a clamorous and vigorous final scene" - struggling to comprehend this. Any chance it could be recast for the non-specialist? Can't make a suggestion as I don't really get it.
  • "But of greater consequence for the history of opera" - is the "But" needed?
France, 1824–1829
  • "whilst the chorus of the Swiss people is consistently foregrounded" - does this mean "to the fore"? I shall pass on from "whilst" without comment.
  • will change to 'is consistently in the foreground'--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Withdrawal, 1830–1868
  • "Not until Rossini returned to Paris in 1855 were there signs of a revival of Rossini's musical spirits" - replace the second "Rossini's" with "his" to avoid duplication?
  • "Their historical position remains to be assessed" - just an observation but do we know why this hasn't been assessed, some 150 years on?
  • I'm not sure, but possibly because their odd mix of naivety and sophistication makes them dangerous ground for academics.--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Influence and legacy
  • "an important turning-point towards positive appreciation, which may also have been assisted by the trend of neoclassicism in art music" - what is "art music"? Does the link help, Art music? I have to say it doesn't really assist me.
  • I will delete the word 'art'.--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "But only later in the 20th century began a firm re-evaluation of his significance in the light of study, and the creation of critical editions, of his works" - does this sentence quite work? It seems to be missing something? Before "began"?
  • Better maybe "A firm re-evaluation of his significance began only later in the 20th century in the light of...."--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Notes
  • n24 "These suggestions often took on a tinge of Judaeophobia" - is there a particular reason for using this, rather odd and dated, term, rather than the more usual, and linked, "antisemitism"?
  • Yes. I beleive,. with many historians, the word 'antisemitism' sholud be used only for the late 19th century political movement (and its successors) to remove Jews of civil liberties they had been granted since the Napoleonic period. That's to be distinuguihed from atavistic (and present-day) Jew-hatred. But to make clearer, I will change Judaeophobia to Jew-hatred.--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • n40 - Is this unfinished or is it directing us to Farr? If it is, should it spell it out, i.e., "For a conspectus as at 2005, see Richard Farr"?
  • Indeed, should be spelt out.--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Very informative and a pleasure to read. Looking forward to its progress. KJP1 (talk) 08:28, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • KJP1, Many thanks for your constructive comments. I will be adopting them (or adapting them) over the next few days - (a death in the family means I am running around a bit at present).--Smerus (talk) 19:12, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I’m sorry to hear that and my sympathies for your loss. Absolutely no hurry at all. I was glad I could find a few, minor, suggestions. This is rare for a Riley and Co. composer article. KJP1 (talk) 19:18, 27 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All done now, I think.--Smerus (talk) 05:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment from Scarabocchio[edit]

On a quick scan it looks like every title of every work is given in its native language, either Italian or French, with one single exception in the whole article. Could we not have Il barbiere in the Italian for consistency? Scarabocchio (talk) 20:28, 3 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I shall leave the fray, and retire to listen, once more, to the final scene of Branagh's Henry V ... Scarabocchio (talk) 22:22, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda[edit]

Thank you for the undertaking! I love listening to his operas, and singing the Petite messe, both orchestra version and especially the original chamber scoring as he meant it to be (three altos). Chiming in with Scarabocchio, and repeating from Wagner (2013): Rossini wrote an opera in Italian (as Wagner in German), and we can help to identifying by adding the familiar English title in brackets on the first mentioning, but should not suggest that it was his title. I suggest you give an English translation of all work titles (but Tancredi, Otello ...), the less known the more needed. - Comments while reading, and as usually, lead last. I haven't read the other comments (besides the one I join this to).

Lead

  • (contradicting myself, as often) "at music school in Bologna", - do we have a link to the school? bacause the present day town hardly helps? "at a music school"?
  • link stages in Venice, Naples etc? again: not modern places but theatres?
  • theatre manager sooner?
  • don't think "cannabalised" will be understood by a general reader - or do we serve only certain ones?
  • for the same reason: translate Péchés de vieillesse (yes, there's a link, but ...)
  • actually, same, translate Petite messe solennelle? perhaps adding that petite certainly isn't for form and length?

First operas ...

  • is the plural of farse farse? - perhaps "similar works"?
  • I don't believe Haydn's oratorio was sung in English in Bologna in 1811.
  • maestro di cartello?

Naples

  • Barber gets almost absurd when Paisiello allegedly wrote a work "of the same title".
  • "was originally given the same title as its hero, Almaviva" - always learning: is Almaviva a title? then translate please.
  • "it was billed by its now-familiar title", - again, not billed in English in Bologna
  • "opere serie" - I know what that means, but ...

Vienna and London

  • "by the early 1820s", and then "the previous year"?
  • as before: Beethoven will not have spoken or written of "Barbers"

Paris

  • linking opera genres again on purpose?

Retirement

  • Is Othello the French name?
  • "One of Rossini's few late works intended to be given in public was his Petite messe solennelle, first performed in 1864." that seems a bit too short for that it was supposed in small scale in a private home, and only later he orchestrated it (and only because he was afraid of what Berlioz would do ...), and when Rome didn't permit female singers, banned it from performance at church until after his death. - Why not count it among the "sins"? Nice dedication also.

Stopping here, with the bass line of the Kyrie on my mind. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:54, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • OK, I think Gerda's comments on Barber/Barbiere are to my mind sufficient to turn the balance and I have changed to the Italian title throughout, with the English translation added at its first appearance in each section. In addition to her points, it cannot be right to say " the Rossini repertoire of opera houses around the world remains dominated by The Barber of Seville" when most of them do not perform it in English. Of course some **** will whinge about this when/if the article goes to FA assessment. So also of course Tim riley feel free to shoot me done on this if you feel strongly. Not convinced on the other points: what is wrong with maestro di cartello? - cannibalized is perfectly OK imo - una farsa / due farse is correct - Almaviva is the count's name - I think all the translatable opera titles are in fact translated in text or notes - point about petite messe being neither petite or solonnelle is made in the text, doesn't belong in lead - etc.--Smerus (talk) 20:09, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just in from LSO Weber, Mendelssohn and Schumann concert. Will readjust brain to Italian rather than German and respond in detail tomorrow. Meanwhile happy either way about The Barber. Having grappled with the hydra of Berlioz titles recently I'm easy about Rossini's. I think the whinging person you refer to is not in fact a **** but a *******, but I may be mistaken. More anon. Tim riley talk 22:36, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Having been through the above points I find myself in complete agreement with Smerus on all the outstanding points. I record our formal thanks to Gerda Arendt for contributing comments. Tim riley talk 15:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you, Smerus and Tim! I understand a lot better, but still don't know what a maestro di cartello is, my fault, probably. I'd question that Rossinin "intended" that his Petite messe solennelle" was given in public. Perhaps find a different wording? There will be FAC, I guess, and I will read "Music", just not now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:49, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gerda Arendt: I think this PR will be open for a little while yet. There is at least one distinguished editor whose comments I hope we shall be getting in due course. And so if you have further comments it would be appreciated if you added them here rather than at FAC, by which stage it is preferable to have as much as possible sorted out. Tim riley talk 15:57, 8 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My pleasure, Scarabocchio ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Back, after a series of articles that I wanted to save, and a great Verdi opera last week. I found the music section to my liking, but - regarding the above - still think that "One of Rossini's few late works intended to be given in public was his Petite messe solennelle" would need a source, or be rephrased. We shouldn't shorten to something that sounds wrong, as this "intended" does. The performance was in private home, well attended but not what is normally understood as "public". About the same piece, we read in the Music section. "and as it included women's voices". How. It's written for SATB, could be boys or women, but Rossini wanted women, - how could that be said better. - Still above: I'd prefer if Barber could leave the Naples header.

The Influence section is fine, I am just not happy about death and Messa da Rossini in the middle of influence before and after, and would like to know a bit about the monument in Santa Croce. Thank you for the article! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:39, 14 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A few more thoughts after dreams: I think the order could be kept if the first paragraph said something such as "during his lifetime already". The Messa is such a unique tribute that it may deserve a little more, such as the names of (some of) these composers (if we mention little variations), was an unusual collaborative effort (of composers who otherwise were rather rivals), the fact that it was completed (didn't remain a project), that it was revived (by Helmuth Rilling in the 20th century, and that the libera me went into Verdi's Requiem and thus we hear a tribute to Rossini every time we hear that, - perhaps the greatest tribute imaginable. Yes, there's a link, but "project" just sounds a bit harmless. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:58, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not entirely sure about the drift of these comments. The Barber/Barbiere situation has been made consistent in the article. The Messa is better dealt with I think in its own article than by going on about it here in detail; it's not I think an essential element of an article about Rossini himself. (And nor, imo, is detail about the S. Croce memorial, which would belong in the article on S. Croce).--Smerus (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Clarifying:
  1. Barber - I don't think that Barber should be in a header.
  2. Messa per Rossini - I think "project" is too little for a substantial composition, because - at least to me - it sounds like something that remained an idea, no more. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:06, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Gerda - I had already changed the heading following your comment. I would maintain that the Messa per R was a project, as it was nver realized as originally intended.--Smerus (talk) 11:45, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It was not performed, but it was composed, - can you word that in simple words. These composers put a lot into it, - while "project" sound like "nice idea". Thank you for the change before I asked ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:11, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • "Born in Pesaro to parents who were both musicians by profession (his father a trumpeter, his mother a singer)," Is this parenthetical really necessary? And consider "professional musicians" for "musicians by profession". I note that the mother was not a musician, apparently, at the time of his birth.
  • How about "Born in Pesaro to parents who were both musicians"? It makes the necessary point, I think, without accusing Signora Rossini of turning professional prematurely. Tim riley talk 08:36, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Opéra in Paris, for which he produced an opera to celebrate the coronation of Charles X of France," Is the "of France" really necessary?
    • Probably not: "Charles X" redirects to "Charles X of France", so there's no danger of confusion with Charles X of Ruritania, Peasemoldia etc. Smerus wrote our lead, and I leave the decision on the first two points to him. Tim riley talk 09:06, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "dramma serio" I can guess what this is but ...
  • "Between 1815 and 1822 he composed nine more operas for Naples and nine further pieces for opera houses in other cities." I might try to avoid using both "more" and "further" in this manner. I imagine the nuance is that this is in addition to the piece on Elizabeth I, but I'm not sure you're making it clear.
More soon.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:58, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Looking foward to it. Thank you for the first batch. Tim riley talk 09:06, 13 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Wehwalt for this instalment: I have copyedited the lead in line with your comments and Tim's suggestions--Smerus (talk) 09:49, 13 February 2019 (UTC).[reply]
  • "An insurrection in Naples against the monarchy, though quickly crushed, unsettled Rossini,[45] and when Barbaia signed a contract to take the company to Vienna, Rossini was glad to join them, and did not reveal to Barbaia that he had no intention of returning to Naples afterwards.[46]" maybe after the last comma, start with a "but" rather than "and"?
  • On reflection this could do with chopping in two. Shall redraw. Tim riley talk 20:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The work survived that one major flaw," the lack of ability of one singer is surely not a flaw in the work.
  • "The following year Rossini wrote his long-awaited French grand opera, Guillaume Tell, based on Friedrich Schiller's 1804 play Wilhelm Tell which drew on the William Tell legend.[76]" I guess the question is, are you Telling too much here?
  • "Louis Philippe I" I've very seldom seen him sport the Roman numeral.
    • I thought it looked a bit odd, but that's how he was billed, apparently. (cf Pope John Paul I, I suppose, who assumed the numeral on taking office.) Tim riley talk 20:40, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The period after 1835 saw Rossini's formal separation from his wife, who remained at Castenaso (1837), and the death of his father, at the age of eighty (1839)." I might cut the final comma.
  • "In 1860, Richard Wagner visited Rossini via an introduction from Rossini's friend Edmond Michotte who some forty-five years later wrote his account of their genial conversation." I imagine Rossini/Wagner is meant but this could be clearer.
  • "After a funeral service attended by more than four thousand people, at the church of Sainte-Trinité, Paris, Rossini's body was interred at the Père Lachaise Cemetery.[120]" Consider cutting the first comma.
  • "the overture to the comedy Il barbiere di Siviglia (The Barber of Seville).[125][128]" As you have referred to this work by shortened forms of the title, why are you going full barrel here with link and translation?
  • This is just to ensure that key reference/links in Life section are repeated in Works section, which is my (and I think Tim's) usual practice in tarting up improving articles towards FA or whatever.--Smerus (talk) 09:07, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Of greater consequence for the history of opera was Rossini's ability to forward this technique in the genre of opera seria." This seems the only exception to your use of italics for the final two words.
  • I don't see why the "Memoirs" is linked in footnote 2.
  • I am treading on Tim's toes here, but as it seemed clear to me that these should have been editorial brackets, I have made a correction accordingly. Of course If I am wrong I grant Tim permission to stamp on my toes in return.--Smerus (talk) 09:07, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "For a conspectus as at 2005" The reader may be unfamiliar with what a "conspectus" is.
  • I have watered this down, although I am in general of prodding readers rather than pandering to their weaknesses. If anyone wants to form an Association of Elitist Wikipedia Editors, I will subscribe.--Smerus (talk) 09:07, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That's about it, all looks good.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:29, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks you, Wehwalt, for your comments. Ad rem, as ever. Tim riley talk 17:13, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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