Wikipedia:Peer review/Handel's lost Hamburg operas/archive1

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Handel's lost Hamburg operas[edit]

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This article deals with the youthful Handel's time as an ensemble violinist and hack composer at the Gänsemarkt, Hamburg's opera house, before he established his reputation. In the three years he spent there he managed to write four operas, only one of which has survived more or less intact. The music for one has disappeared entirely; a few fragments from the others have been formed into a suite. We'll never really know what the lost music sounded like – although Handel was a famous recycler, so bits probably crop up in all sorts of later works. Lost or uncomposed music (see also Sibelius, Monteverdi) is a particular fascination of mine, and I've thoroughly enjoyed this bit of detective work. Over to you now. Brianboulton (talk) 23:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Tim riley[edit]

Coming round for a second go I find a few minor things to comment on that I missed at first reading:

  • Halle
    • The middle para has two "perhapses" in close proximity.
    • "the Elector and (from 1701) Prussian king" – for the sake of the tattered remains of my sanity I decline to comment on capitalisation of job titles, but I merely mention that the junior title is capitalised here and the senior one isn't.
  • Almira
    • I think, but am not quite certain enough to change it myself, that in the Keates quote "things" should be "thing".
  • Nero – General
    • It wouldn't hurt to footnote a translation of Die durch Blut und Mord erlangete Lieb, for those of us whose linguistic skills stop at quidem.
    • "The whole work incorporates … 57 arias" – God Almighty! There ought be a law.
  • Nero – Libretto
    • "Anicetus is Handel's only openly homosexual operatic character" – I usually resist anachronistic attempts to render "homosexual" as "gay", but as neither term was in use in Handel's day I think perhaps "gay" might pass muster and be less austere here. I don't press the point.
  • Nero – Characters
    • Might it be appropriate to italicise "et al"?
  • Nero – Plot
    • I bet you enjoyed writing this section. I can assure you authoritatively that it isn't only Tiridates who is temporarily unhinged. I'm waiting for it to wear off. Meanwhile, in my view (others disagree, I know) the plot summary should be cited to some published source, if only the libretto. Same for the later plot summaries.
    • Well, the convention that plot synopses are not cited to sources seems to have held on all opera articles that have reached FA (including your own recent Falstaff). I'm following that convention – are there special circumstances here that suggest I shouldn't? Brianboulton (talk) 15:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Touché! I'll retire to my tent and reconsider. Tim riley talk 17:23, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Florrie and Daphne – General
    • "his main source of income was through private lessons" – the preposition looks a bit odd to me. I'd be tempted to say his main source of income was from giving private lessons, but again, I don't press the point.
    • beglückte I can manage, but verwandelte leaves me floundering – another case for a footnote translation, please. (I know you let Hinsch explain later, but it's two paragraphs later, and one is already spurlos versunken.)
  • Florindo and Daphne – Libretto
    • I briefly got a bit muddled with Apollo's names: "Apollo (Phoebus)", "Phoebus (Apollo)" and "Phoebus" tout court. The second and third are in a quote, and perhaps it might be smoother to change "Apollo (Phoebus)" into "Phoebus (Apollo)" at the previous mention.
  • Florindo and Daphne – Libretto
    • "This offends the love-god" – this assumes that your readers all know that the love god = Cupid. Probably, but I mention it in passing.
    • "the scheming shepherdess Lycoris" – come, come, Boulton: our credulity is not limitless. You'll be mentioning the goatherd Kandiphlos next.
  • Florindo and Daphne – Performance history
    • "Last sentence of first para has two "suggests", one of which might be tweaked, perhaps.
  • Link
    • On the machine I'm using, at any rate, the link to this page from the article page doesn't work: I get the message: "Bad title. The requested page title contains invalid characters: "%27"." What can be done about this I know not. [Later: I've tried on two other machines and it still gives me the soldier's farewell. Tim riley talk 20:46, 8 January 2016 (UTC)][reply]
    • I'm not sure what link you mean. There is no direct "link to this page from the article page" that I'm aware of – can you clarify?
      • Top of article page: right under the title: "An unassessed article from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Currently being peer reviewed." - the last two words should link to this review page, but, oddly and unusually, don't. That omission won't help you drum up trade for this review, and I wonder if a manually inserted link immediately below might be in order. Tim riley talk 17:23, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
        • Weird – no such message appears under the title in my display, nor have I ever seen such a message on any article I've developed. All I have is "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia", with no link attached. This must be one of those optional gizmos that is supplied from the toolbox on the left. I will ask my technical adviser, aka SchroCat, for an opinion. Brianboulton (talk) 21:35, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
          • It comes from a script that one can install somewhere. Tim, if you log out and look at the page it won't show. I can't remember which script it, but I know it does other excellent things too. – SchroCat (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. I enjoyed this article much more than I expected to – very greatly, in fact. A fine addition to our classical music pages. – Tim riley talk 15:09, 8 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review and for the various comments, tongue-in-cheek or otherwise. When the score of Nero is discovered, all 20 ensembles, 57 arias, and several miles of Handelian recitative, I'll see that you and I have tickets for the premiere. (As Samuel Langford remarked at an interminable performance of Parsifal: "At least Amfortas had the sense to bring his bed".) Brianboulton (talk) 15:53, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

Seems uniformly excellent as always.
Lede
  • "The music for the other three, Nero, Florindo, and Daphne, is lost except for a few short orchestral excerpts from the latter two" a bit awkward. Maybe "Of the other three, the music for Nero is lost, while short orchestral excerpts from Florindo and Daphne survive."
  • "originally conceived as two parts of a single super-opera" I hesitatingly suggest "originally conceived as separate parts of a super-opera"
  • " to the Elector and (from 1701) Prussian king Frederick I " this makes it sound like they might be separate people.
  • "Hamburg, then a thriving free city which housed the leading opera house in northern Germany." has any of that changed? They don't seem to think so
  • The only thing that's changed is that it's no longer a free city – but I've deleted the "then". Brianboulton (talk) 16:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "enthusiastically supported by the city's municipal authorities" consider cutting "city's"
  • It's slightly redundant, but I'd prefer to keep it, for clarity's sake.Brianboulton (talk) 16:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Born in 1774, Keiser" possibly the sentence could be usefully split.
  • "surrounding the Princess Almira's unwanted betrothal to her late father's choice of future spouse, contrary to her own secret love for her secretary, Fernando." I'm not sure about the unwanted, I gather it was just fine to the men ... maybe "surrounding the Princess Almira's secret love for her secretary, Fernando, in opposition to her father, who has chosen a different spouse for her".
  • "While these proceedings develop" possibly "as these events develop"
  • The image under Florindo moves the next subsection title to the right.
  • All looks well to me – which title do you see displaced?
  • " Only the guiltless Daphne ends up losing everything." well the special tree designation might be worth something in the tourist trade ... but I suppose it's all over once you start going to seed. (no action, sort of like Daphne in multiple ways ...)
  • "Mattheson's opera list for 1708 There are no surviving records" Full stop after 1708 (doing this offline)
  • "was present at any stage during rehearsals " possibly "time" for "stage". I fear that "stage" would at least momentarily confuse the reader.
  • "suggests that so unusual a project would not have been attempted without the composer's presence" I imagine what is being referred to is the leadership from the harpsichord. I might that this is so, on the assumption the reader may not be familiar with the musical conceits of the first decade of the 1700s.
  • This might be so, but would be editorial conjecture without an indication from the source, which is silent on the matter. Brianboulton (talk) 16:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "undiluted fare too much" possibly say how so, as the reader may not be certain.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:02, 9 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these points which, except as commented, have been taken up morer or less as you suggest. Brianboulton (talk) 16:42, 11 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from SchroCat[edit]

I've made a few minor tweaks here - nothing too much, but please check the referencing change I made to ensure I've not messed anything up (one of them wasn't working properly previously)

Halle
  • "by the age of ten the young Handel": if he's ten, we know he's young, so you can dispense with the tag
  • I know this isn't a full Handel biography, but it may be worth a footnote to mention the difference in umlaut between father and son – it looks a little odd here.
  • "persuaded Georg Händel"; we can probably lose the "Händel" on this second mention.
  • "Telemann, whom Handel met in 1700": whom he met would suffice
  • "indicative of Handel's burgeoning": ditto on the he
Hamburg
  • Is "brainchild" sufficiently encyclopaedic?
  • I think so. It's not slang, nor noted as "informal" in the O D of E. Brianboulton (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Main article: Almira": do we need the linked 'subtitle' there? It is repeated just along the first line – much like The Oper am Gänsemarkt carries no subtitle, but is linked in the first line
Lost works
  • The subtitle Nero should be in italics, I think?

An interesting article – and I hope these comments help. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:45, 12 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much. I've added a footnote re the vanished umlaut, and otherwise tweaked per your suggestions. Brianboulton (talk) 22:04, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Only one link – to Britannica online – wasn't working and I fixed that. All three are now working. I've also switched to a cropped version of the portrait. This image is not vital to the article but I'd like to keep it unless there are particular issues. Brianboulton (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yep, looks good. The Webarchive link is still not working for me, but since we've swapped the image with one that has working links, no foul there. — Chris Woodrich (talk) 23:22, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks for this review. Brianboulton (talk) 23:01, 14 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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