Wikipedia:Peer review/Henry J. Wood/archive1

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Henry J. Wood[edit]

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I have listed this article for peer review because I've read widely and distilled what I have found and would now be glad of other editors' comments for refining the article to get it up to FAC level. Henry Wood was not one of music's glamour boys, but what he did for music in Britain was incomparable, and he deserves the best article possible.

Thank you, Tim riley (talk) 17:52, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It would certainly improve the article if the shortened footnotes would have been formatted with either the {{sfn}} or the {{harvnb}} template. That would make it much easier for the reader to find the cited work. --Eisfbnore (talk) 18:30, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I must disagree with Eisfbnore's comments. I have the same problem with these templates that I have with others. To edit them, you have to have specialized knowledge, which would make it harder for many editors to edit the article. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:21, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I must disagree with yours' Ssilvers, thus supporting Eisfbnore's comments. The {{harvnb}} template is indeed extremely useful while using book references and certainly improves upon the whole look and feel of an article. I strongly recommend using them. — Legolas (talk2me) 10:16, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(More) With these two edits, I have shown how to incorporate the Harvard template. It is very easy and the effect is astounding. — Legolas (talk2me) 10:23, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One does not need to be an expert to applicate the {{harv}} templates, it took five seconds for me (while being a newbie) to learn how to use them. They do—just as the {{cite}} templates—give a consistent style throughout this encyclopedia, where users don't have to "mirror" the major constributor's format of referencing. The syntax is quite simple, and is even explained at Template:Harvard citation#Usage. Eisfbnore (talk) 12:08, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. I'll certainly consider this for future articles. Tim riley (talk) 18:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. This is a nice article on a subject that certainly deserves to be an FA. One of the toughest things at FAC I think is the level of detail to which articles are scrutinised. The citation issue has been addressed by others above, so I'll just add a few other things here that may need some attention:
    • "The series was successful, and Wood conducted further annual promenade series until his death in 1944, gradually changing the balance of classical and popular music until they became wholly classical in the 1920s." By the time we get to the "they" in "they became wholly clasical" the subject, "the series", is so far distant it might as well be given its own postcode. Also, "the series" is regarded as singular at the startof the sentence ("the series was"), but becomes plural later ("they became wholly classical").
      • Yes. (I'm still chuckling at the "postcode" gag.) Done. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Wood senior had been a member of his family's pawnbroking business ...". How can you be a member of a business?
      • Seems idiomatic to me, but I've redrawn. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "... a member of his family's pawnbroking business, but by the time of his son's birth he had set up business as a jeweller". "Business ... business".
      • Done.
    • "Wood senior sang as principal tenor in the choir of St Sepulchre-without-Newgate, known as 'the musicians' church', and also played the cello". What is "also" telling us here that "and" isn't already telling us?
    • I'd suggest putting the two images in the Early years section side-by-side rather than one on top of the other.
    • I'd suggest switching the alignment of the two images in Early years of the Proms section so that each is looking into the page rather than out of it.
      • Problem about that is that the first image is, and should be, at the top of the section, and I believe we are not allowed to have pictures on the left at the start of sections. Fortunately, both faces are, though not quite full-on to the camera, at least looking at it, so are not actually staring away from the page. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think there used to be a MoS guideline that sub-sections ought not to start with a left-aligned image, but there no longer is. It's no big deal either way though. Malleus Fatuorum 13:09, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • There's a {{cquote}} in the Early twentieth century section and another in the Honours, memorials and reputation section, but cquotes should only be used for pullout quotes.
      • I didn't know that. Thank you. I've corrected. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not fond of splitting the Notes section into columns as I think it makes it harder to read, but that's just a personal preference.
      • I'll see what others (if any) say on this. I am wholly neutral in the matter.
  • Overall I think this would stand a very good chance at FAC with just a little but of tidying up. Malleus Fatuorum 21:48, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thank you very much for these points. I agree with most of them and have addressed accordingly. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Brianboulton comments: First few sections. Many of these can be taken as suggestions which you may or may not wish to adopt.

Lead
  • Not completely happy with the single-sentence first paragraph which I think doesn't say enough.
    • I've followed your suggestions as noted below. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps, instead of "best known for his association with", say "who dedicated the greater part of his professional life to"
    • Wood's ghost would haunt me if I said that. He was wont to point out that the Proms were not the greater part of his professional life ("I often wonder what they think I do for the other ten months of the year")
  • Rather than just "London's promenade concerts", say "London's annual season of promenade concerts".
  • I also recommend adding stuff from the third paragraph, along he lines: "He introduced hundreds of new works to British audiences; after his death the concerts were officially renamed in his honour as the "Henry Wood Promenade Concerts".
  • In the third paragraph the word "further" is probably redundant. Also, the pronoun in "gradually changing the balance of classical and popular music until they became wholly classical in the 1920s" is inspecific, and should be replaced by "the concerts".
Early years
  • One minor grammar/style concern: it always reads awkwardly when a paragraph begins with a participle, as in "Attending services at St Sepulchre, Wood received little religious inspiration..." I suggest you turn the sentence round: "Wood received little religious inspiration from attending services at St Sepulchre,..."
Opera
  • When did Wood leave the RAM?
  • In the listing of operas, why is La fille du régiment given in English translation, but not Il trovatore?
    • The company's own practice. The Carl Rosa gave all operas in English, but retained a few untranslated titles, such as Trovatore, Traviata, Der Rosenkavalier and Così fan Tutte. The ENO still does the same. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was followed by a similar engagement for former Carl Rosa singers who had set up a company of their own.[23]" Unclear, a bit wordy. Does it mean: "This appointment was followed by a similar engagement with a company which former Carl Rosa singers had set up."?
  • "Lago disappeared" - a trifle melodramatic, even paranormal? Would it be more factual to say he "absconded"?
    • I wondered that when writing the para, but to me "absconded" suggests stealing the takings as well as doing a runner, and I have not seen any evidence of such criminal conduct by Lago - he simply legged it, it seems. I wasn't thrilled with "disappeared", but couldn't and can't think of a better word. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Later - I find that the OED doesn't justify my earlier comment. "intr. To hide oneself; to flee into hiding, or to an inaccessible place; to leave hurriedly and secretly, typically to elude a creditor, escape from custody, or avoid arrest." I have redrawn accordingly. Tim riley (talk) 11:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He conducted only one more operatic season during the rest of his career." Maybe indicate when/where.
    • Done. A rather stronger ending to the para now - thank you. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Early years of the Proms
  • The prose in the opening sentences doesn't quite flow. Passive voice - who appointed Wood as musical adviser? Who was giving the Wagner concerts? What aspects of Wagner's duties impressed Newman? And "was proposing to run" rather than "proposed to run"?
  • The sentence beginning "Sullivan's concerts in the 1870s..." needs to be split - too long.
  • Was it the first of Newman's proposed concerts that Cathcart proposed to sponsor?
    • The whole of the first season. I've added a sentence to make this clear. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest link ensemble?
  • "remained common" or "become common" (the latter if the new layout became general).
    • Done. (I restrained myself from elaborating on this, but Sir Adrian Boult disapproved of the new layout, and like Toscanini, Monteux, Klemperer and others he insisted on dividing his violins left and right. The glamour boys like Beecham and Karajan went for Wood's layout. Nowadays the Authenticke lobby agree with Boult and Toscanini, and split the fiddles left and right.) Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More to come later. Brianboulton (talk) 23:02, 27 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Grateful for these most helpful comments - many thanks. Looking forward to more in due course. Tim riley (talk) 10:50, 28 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More

Early twentieth century
  • Drop the "DR" from Cathcart
  • The image caption should be made more explicit, since this is a painting rather than a regular portrait.
  • Suggestion: "Later in the year, during the 1902 Proms season, Wood's health, taxed by his enormous workload, broke down." Shortish sentence subdivided into 5 tiny bites. It could be: "During the 1902 Proms season later in the year, Wood's health broke down, taxed by his enormous workload."
  • An awkward "they" in "but in the same year they passed up..."
    • It was really Newman's fault, so I've redrawn blaming him. Tim riley (talk) 14:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a link available for the hornpipe
World War I and post-war
  • The Orga quote sould use "[Wood]" rather than "he"
  • "Thomas Beecham had since around 1910 been..." - a tortured arrangement. Try: "Since around 1910 Thomas Beecham had been..."
  • The sentence "The 1918 offer from Boston was not Wood's last opportunity to conduct in the U.S" is not really necessary. This quite long and comprehensive article doesn't need extra padding.
BBC and the Proms
  • What were the "collaborations" with Bartok and Hindemith?
  • Could "Mahler's vast Symphony of a Thousand" be identified as his 8th?
    • As I typed it I thought, "Brianboulton won't be having with that." Duly changed. Tim riley (talk) 14:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Recordings
  • "...the Gramophone and Typewriter Company, better known as His Master's Voice or HMV." Would it be more accurate to say "which became better known..."?
    • Not sure. Will check and amend if needed. Tim riley (talk) 14:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Later: by a happy coincidence the company's releases were known as HMVs from the year of Wood's first recordings, viz 1908 (having been known as G&Ts hitherto - I don't mind if I do!) Tim riley (talk) 22:52, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I hope these comments are helpful. Nothing from the remaining sessions. This is a most interesting biography of a man of whom I have always felt I ought to know more, and now I do. Brianboulton (talk) 00:23, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Most valuable comments, received with warm thanks. And very pleased you found it interesting. Tim riley (talk) 14:36, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images Very interesting article and well-done. A good mix of images, but four of them are looking off the page. I would suggest you swap the sides of those four. Tom Reedy (talk) 13:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this. Kind comments much appreciated. I've switched as suggested. Tim riley (talk) 18:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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