Wikipedia:Peer review/John Diefenbaker/archive1

John Diefenbaker

This peer review discussion has been closed.
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I've listed this article for peer review because…I'm planning to nominate it for FA, and would like feedback first.

Thanks, Wehwalt (talk) 23:25, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

(at under 10,000 words, should be a stroll in the park) Brianboulton (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Sorry, hard to do a comprehensive article on a man who was active politically for 60 years in much under 10K.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:38, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Ealdgyth (talk · contribs)

• You said you wanted to know what to work on before taking to FAC, so I looked at the sourcing and referencing with that in mind. I reviewed the article's sources as I would at FAC.
  • What makes the Smye self-published ref reliable?

Hope this helps. Please note that I don't watchlist Peer Reviews I've done. If you have a question about something, you'll have to drop a note on my talk page to get my attention. (My watchlist is already WAY too long, adding peer reviews would make things much worse.) 14:20, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Nothing. Bzuk added that when I got to the part about the Arrow, it's his area of interest. I'll drop a note on his talk page asking him to replace it with another reference. One way or the other it will be gone before FAC. Thanks for the review.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:33, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Brianboulton comments: First half of my review. I am sorry to say that Diefenbaker left no impact on my generation of Europeans, and before this article I would not have been able to identify him. I imagined he might be a German footballer (Johann Diefenbaker, the famed Bayern Munich striker) so this article has been an education for me.

• Alphabet soup: the post-nominals in the first sentence differ from those in the infobox. In my view both are a little excessive; I don't know what the status of FRSC is in Canada, but FRSA is a very low-level British "honour", not in any way related to or equivalent to FRS (Fellow of the Royal Society) which is the real McCoy. In the infobox, do his academic degrees, including bachelor's, need to be shown? I'd stick with PC, CH, QC and, if it cuts the mustard, FRSC.
• Lead: my only issue is the personalisation of the achievements of Diefenbaker's government: he did this, he did that, he appointed whomever, and so on. This makes him sound like an absolute ruler; I would prefer "his government".
• Early life
  • "including his son" looks odd and anonymous at the end of the first paragraph, especially as William had more than one son. Suggest rephrase the last sentence: "... four of the 28 students at his school near Toronto in 1903, including his son John, four served as Conservative MPs in the 19th Canadian Parliament beginning in 1940." (And William was a Liberal!)
  • "When the United Kingdom declared war on Germany in 1914, it did so on its own behalf, and on behalf of Canada and the other Dominions." A trifle verbose; it could be "When the United Kingdom declared war on Germany in 1914, it did so also on behalf of Canada and the other Dominions."
  • The shovel injury: "Was Dief a cowardy-custard?" Discuss. Seriously though, was this incident ever raised and used against him?
    • Not that I'm aware of, but his wartime record may not have been available until after his death. Mentions during his political career, including his obit, see here. Dief never made it to France. He certainly allowed some mythology to grow up around his wartime service, no matter how you slice it. His biographer, Smith, says that Dief's superiors were convinced that this was not a man they wanted leading troops into action.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:13, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "articling student": I've had a similar discussion with you about this terminolgy (see Early Neville Chamberlain). "Articling" doesn't make sense, if the word indeed exists; Diefenbaker was "articled", not "articling", in the same way that a prisoner is manacled, not "manacling". Why not use the standard term, to which you have linked - articled clerk?
    • It is Canadian terminology, see here. Seems to still be the term, judging by the nature of some of the sites.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
• Wakaw days
  • As written, it sounds as though the Court of King's Bench sat in three places. Can this be clarified?
    • The sources don't make it clear, but the judges probably "rode circuit" as used to be common both in North America and the UK. I will change it to "places where the Court of King's Bench sat".--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "It would be the last election he would win for twenty years." This is probably SBO (Statement of the Bleedin' Obvious), but under the Wikipedia regime it should be cited, or it could be considered as OR. As an alternative, absorb it into the previous sentence, thus: "In late 1920, he was elected to the village council—the last election he would win for twenty years—to serve a three-year term.[15]" That would not be challenged.
    • It not a contentious matter, and I did not feel it had to be cited. That being said, obviously it will be a lightning rod at FAC and I will strike the language.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
• Aspiring politician: will all readers know that "Tory" means "Conservative"?
  • First paragraph of lede gives alternative names. Should I clarify further in the body?--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
• Perennial candidate
  • "Thirty years later, the winning candidate, H.J. Fraser, challenged Diefenbaker for his parliamentary seat, and was defeated by a 5-to-1 margin." This info may be better as a footnote rather than disturbing the chronology.
  • "a nomination to again stand against" Inelegant; try "a nomination to stand once more against..."
  • "...Commons — their..." No spaces around mdashes
• Mackenzie King years
  • "...had but a slight role" Oddly antique phrasing; "...had only a slight role" has a more contemporary feel
  • There's a useful wikilink available for "gadfly"
  • What is a floor leader?
  • "by by-election" - unfortunate. Suggest "through a by-election"
  • "...would have their leader in the House of Commons." Surely, had their leader – established fact.
• Leadership contender
  • Explain "at large delegates"
    • The source doesn't explain it. Meisel, talking about the 1956 leadership convention, mentions that that the provincial party organizations got to appoint additional delegates as at large delegates. I will research further and see if I can find a better answer.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
    • I've linked to at-large. Is this only a North American term?--Wehwalt (talk) 17:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "The governing Liberals repeatedly attempted to deprive Diefenbaker of office" Not "office", which suggests a governmental post, but "his parliamentary seat" (that's English parlance; there's no doubt a way of expressing it in Canadian)
  • "The Liberals were not above more petty annoyances" - this phrasing is definitely non-neutral, and should only be included as part of a specific quotation, i.e. as someone else's wording.
  • "most Canadian troops" → "mostly Canadian troops"
  • "...prejudicing the jury against the Crown prosecutor"; "prejudicing" sounds like sharp or disreputable practice. Can another word or phrase be used?
    • The manslaughter case against Atherton only regarded the train crew, not the passengers. Dief kept mentioning the troops, and the the prosecutor said, "We're not concerned here with the privates". There were many former enlisted men on the jury, the prosecutor was an ex officer, and Dief responded, "Not concerned with the privates? Oh, Colonel!" and for the rest of the trial referred to him as Colonel so and so. He won the case. I think the phrasing is justified.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "Olive Diefenbaker was also a great source of strength to her husband, and made his enemies her enemies." Not sure about the "also"; "and made his enemies her enemies" sounds like a quoted phrase, unless it's POV
  • "began to arise" → "arose"
• Leader of opposition; 1957 election: no specific issues

More later. Brianboulton (talk) 16:50, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Rest of the issues I will address, except where I quibbled.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:05, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

All done, except where quibbled. Thanks, will await more.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Here's the rest:-

• Minority government
  • "As the Houses of Parliament had been lent..." etc. Slightly confusing to British readers who tend to equate "Houses of Parliament" with the institutions rather than the bricks and mortar. Could you cahnge to "As the Parliament buildings had been lent..." etc?
    • • That is good, it will allow me to pipe to Centre Block, which had been bothering me as it is the proper name for the buildings, but is not widely known.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "the first to be opened in person by the monarch" - does "the monarch" mean just Liz, or "any British monarch"?
    • Any. I will change to "any Canadian monarch" (Betty is Queen of Canada, you know!). She also said some nice thinks about the Chief after his death, that I couldn't work in.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "Lester Pearson took his place as Leader of the Opposition" - a bit confusing (took whose place?). Perhaps "assumed his duties" or some such?
    • That's difficult. The Leader sits in a specific place in the Commons, directly opposite the PM. It therefore refers to both his physical seat there, and his shadow office.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "amendment to supply" is a technical term that even with the link may confuse readers. I suggest following with a parenthetical note: (a technical device whereby oppositions attempt to secure the government's resignation).
  • "stated that the state" - try to avoid the repetition
• 1958 election: no comment, beyond its being an excellent summary.
  • Thanks! As it was the high point, in many ways, of Dief's life and career, I am glad you think well of it.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
• Mandate 1958-62
  • I wonder if we can do something about the number of commas in this sentence (and yes, I did just add one): "Minister of Finance Fleming, with the support of the Governor of the Bank of Canada, James Coyne, proposed conversion of the wartime Victory Bond issue, which constituted two-thirds of the national debt, and which was due to be redeemed by 1967, to a longer term. Perhaps this would work: "Minister of Finance Fleming, with the support of Governor James Coyne of the Bank of Canada, proposed conversion of the wartime Victory Bonds due for redemption in 1967 to a longer term issue. Victory Bonds constituted two-thirds of Canada's national debt."
  • "The St. Laurent government had serious misgivings and planned to discuss its cancellation after the 1957 election, according to C.D. Howe, the minister responsible for postwar reconstruction." I imagine the misgivings were about the whole project, not just the RCAF's downscaling. I'd make that clear, and also I'd write the sentence the other way round, and change Howe's label to "former" minister, thus: "According to C.D. Howe, the former minister responsible for postwar reconstruction, the St. Laurent government had serious misgivings about te Arrow project, and planned to discuss its cancellation after the 1957 election
  • "The company, blaming Diefenbaker for the firings, immediately dismissed its 14,000 employees...etc". Again, this might be better rejigged as "The company immediately dismissed its 14,000 employees, blaming Diefenbaker for the firings, though it rehired 2,500 employees to fulfill existing obligations (over 50,000 other jobs were affected in the supply chain)."
  • "...Diefenbacker slighting Quebecers in his Cabinet" - how/when did he do that? Have I missed something?
    • Dief only appointed one Quebecer to his cabinet. He wasn't against Quebec, per se, he simply was reluctant to appoint ministers without parliamentary experience, and the PCs had only 2 Quebecers in caucus before 1957, and only 7 from 1957 to 1958. In 1958, of course, the floodgates opened, but they were all newbies. Quebec, however, took it as a slight. I will rephrase slightly.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • The paragraph beginning "This refusal, along with..." is rather muddled, both as to its focus and particularly its chronology, ending as it does with something that predates Diefenbaker's 1958 election victory. Some adjustment advised.
  • "Hastily printed, mocking "Diefenbucks" swept the country." I get the idea, but the phrasing is too cryptic. I assume the "Diefenbucks" (the devalued banknotes) were mocked rather than mocking, and "swept the country" has the wrong feel. I suggest something like "Hastily printed banknotes, mocked as "Diefenbucks", were soon in wide circulation."
    • • They were faux notes, printed to denigrate Diefenbaker and his government. An example can be seen here. There was no change in the official banknote series, which remained more or less the same between 1953 and 1967 (excepting a modest engraving change because some saw the image of a devil in the Queen's hair, I kid you not).--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Could we have a date for the election, rather than just "1962"
• Britain and the Commonwealth: "Britain and New Zealand disagreed"' It is not clear what they disagreed with - the proposal not to reject South Africa's application, or the principle of racial equality. Knowing how British Conservative governments, right up to 1990, used to suck up to South Africa, I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter, but it should be made clear.
  • UK and NZ opposed Dief's proposal on racial equality. Suspect Macmillan didn't want to force a Commonwealth member out through the back door. The new Commonwealth members in Africa heartily supported Dief's proposal. Not clear what was up with the Enzies.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
• "Ike" and "John": No significant issues
• Bilateral hatred
  • Is "bilateral hatred" your own (rather neat) summary of the relationship, or someone else's? I'm a bit concerned by "hatred" which seems extreme; "mutual antipathy" seems a less histrionic and possibly fairer description.
    • Mine. It's kinda based on the title of the Nash book. What about "bilateral anger"? I really like the word bilateral in there.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • As no other president is in view, could not Kennedy just be "the President" rather than "The American President" or "the US President"?
    • I think initially he should be the US President. However, I'll cut out the US's after that.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "By 1962, a year in which a general election was likely, the American government was becoming increasingly concerned at the lack of a commitment to take nuclear weapons." I'm not sure of the relevance of the general election clause, and the latter part of the sentence should specify a lack of commitment "from Canada".
  • "upcoming campaign" → "upcoming election campaign"
  • "Canada also had a change in ambassadors, and when the new envoy, Charles Ritchie arrived in Washington..." A bit loose, and why "also"? Suggest: "Canada appointed a new ambassador to Washington, Charles Ritchie, who on arrival received a cool reception...etc"
• Downfall
  • "...but the Defence Minister soon sought clarification..." I'm not sure what "soon" is doing there; in the context of the whole sentence, "still" would read better.
    • Harkness originally thought that Dief was supporting his position. He was interviewed by the press, and realized that they didn't think that was what Dief's speech meant. He approached Dief, who was not exactly happy with Harkness, to say the least ("You've ruined everything!"). I'll rephrase.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
  • "...short of an absolute majority" It would be helpful to know how many short, e.g. "six short of..." (or whatever the number is)
• Return to opposition
  • "In what Diefenbaker saw as a partisan attack." This is not a sentence though shown as such. Where does the clause belong?
  • "There were calls for Diefenbaker's retirement, especially from the Bay Street wing of the party as early as 1964, which he initially beat back easily." I'm unsure about the punctuation and the organisation of this sentence, and I don't like two adverbs in such close proximity. A slight reorganisation/rephrase would give: "As early as 1964 there had been calls for Diefenbaker's retirement, especially from the Bay Street wing of the party. These he had, at first, beaten back easily."
  • "party president" might be better form than "party President"
• Final years and death
  • Caption (Dief portrait 1968) I may be wrong, but I think it's Trudeau on the left and therefore Stanfield in the centre.

Whoops. Quite right. Brain fart.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• • Three images in the section - image clutter? and text "squeezing"? I have reduced the size of the 1977 image, but there is still a feeling of clutter. Also, I'm not sure that all the text in the final paragraph (describing the funeral) is necessary in an encyclopedia article. Magazine/newspaper, yes. Encyclopedia - doubtful.

Sigh. I'll cut out a sentence somewhere. Some of it is needed to show he was still honoured after all the time and controversy. Maybe the crowds lining the tracks. I will slice the gravesite photo as least valuable, or maybe put it in the references section, if that is not a firing squad offense per the MOS. Problem is, I could only use half of the 1977 photo of Dief, as the other guy in the original image is not identified. It is not Trudeau or the governor general, and yet it was taken at Rideau Hall.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

• Legacy: "Joe Clark and Brian Mulroney, would become the only other politicians to win elections to become Prime Minister as Progressive Conservatives." I've no doubt this is true, but perhaps a footnote should mention Kim Campbell (who became PM as a PC but not through election victory) and Stephen Harper who won election as a Conservative after a merger with the PCs.

And that's it. As a general comment, you are setting standards for political biographies that others may be stretched to maintain. I particularly like this new emphasis on less immediately recognisable figures. I trust one day you will look at Alex Douglas-Home, who was briefly UK's PM in the 1960s, and left no impression whatever. Maybe he deserves a day in tHe sun. Brianboulton (talk) 18:00, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the review, and for the praise. These sort of articles are good also because I rarely encounter editors actively involved in the article, and can rewrite with a free hand. I'll consider Douglas-Home. He is interesting not only for the odd circumstances under which he became PM, but also for the connection with my buddy Neville (he was Nev's PPS. I will look into the availability of secondary sources.--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I will be getting to these in the next day or two. No particular hurry, I don't want to start the FAC for at least another week and am hoping to attract additional reviews, I've left notes at the Canadian Wikiproject and so forth. I am also hoping Connormah will go over the article to check for proper Canadian usage, eh?--Wehwalt (talk) 18:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

On second thought, I read it over this morning, it all looks good, and I'll run up the Red Ensign and see if anyone besides Dief salutes!--Wehwalt (talk) 23:54, 9 January 2010 (UTC)