Wikipedia:Peer review/Jurchen campaigns against the Song Dynasty/archive1

Jurchen campaigns against the Song Dynasty

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I'm planning on nominating this article for FA. The article is currently a GA.

Thanks, Typing General (talk) 06:17, 6 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments by AustralianRupert: G'day, I only took a very quick look, but what I saw impressed me. Good work. I have the following observations/suggestions:

• Watch out for date format consistency. For instance compare "27 January 1126" and "January 28"; either format is fine, but if you are looking to take this to A-class or FAC it should be consistent;
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 06:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "File:Battleofzhuxiancounty.jpg": not sure about the licencing for this image. The licence that is currently being used is for the photograph, but surely it should actually be for the painting itself.
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 08:19, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "File:Wanyan Wuqimai.jpg": probably needs a freedom of panorama licence as well as the licence that is currently being used. More information can be found here: [1]. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 11:06, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 08:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• Thank you. Working on it right now.--Typing General (talk) 21:57, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Peacemaker67 (send... over) 05:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC) I'm reading this as an absolute "babe in the woods" when it comes to Chinese history, so you can compare me with someone coming to this article wanting to know more about something they have a vague idea happened. Many of my comments reflect my confusion about who is who, and I believe the article needs to be tightened up considerably in respect of terminology and clarity for the lay reader.

• the terminology between dynasty and empire seems a bit mixed throughout, weren't the campaigns by the autonomous Jurchen generals against the Song Empire? The article also refers to Song China. Needs some consistency.
• on November 1125 perhaps in November 1125?
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 10:59, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• decided to invade the Song? perhaps the Song Empire?
• the Song are introduced in the Background section without explaining who they were
• Khitan and Liao seem to be used interchangeably, suggest you use one or the other
  • See the comment below.--Typing General (talk) 07:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "their Chinese allies" is unclear. I assume you mean the Song?
  • See the comment below.--Typing General (talk) 07:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• when you refer to people or groups as Chinese, it is not clear what this is being contrasted with, Manchurian?
  • "Chinese" is a common shorthand for Han Chinese. "Han" could be used, but it may confuse readers because there is also a dynasty by the name of Han.--Typing General (talk) 07:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• suggest you provide a conversion of taels
  • To which currency? USD, EUR, RMB or GBP? I don't think its necessary, and converting pre-modern currencies is difficult and likely OR.--Typing General (talk) 07:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "Song diplomatic oversights were unable to restrain the rising Jurchen power" needs clarification, I can't tell what you are trying to say.
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 07:56, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• It is not clear how if the generals were autonomous, the Jin Empire declared war rather than just the generals.
  • The war was formally declared by the emperor, but the generals were a large part of the decision making process.--Typing General (talk) 07:58, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• Chinese general (see above comment about Manchurian etc)
• there seems to be far too much use of alternate names for peoples, things etc, which is very confusing. Jin/Jurchen, Chinese/Song, Khitan Southern Capital/?
  • See the comment below.--Typing General (talk) 07:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "the army had seized control of two prefectures and re-established Jurchen rule over the Sixteen Prefectures", is confusing, they seized control of two, but re-established control over 16?
  • Sixteen Prefectures is the formal name for the contested territories. Once they captured the remaining prefectures, the Jurchens were in control of the entire Sixteen Prefectures region.--Typing General (talk) 07:47, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• towards the Taiyuan
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 06:18, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• provincial capital fell to "the" Jurchens?
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 07:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "Corpses of soldiers who died during the siege further diminished Song morale" ok, but were they lying around the city, or what?
  • The Song soldiers did not dispose of their corpses, leaving them on the walls where they died. I have rewritten the sentence.--Typing General (talk) 07:15, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• scholar elite?
  • Reworded to scholarly elite and linked to Scholar-official.--Typing General (talk) 07:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• reign in? "rein in"
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 06:18, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• and accordedrewarded them with different titles?
• need to introduce Emperor Hailingwang, then a consistency issue with "Hailing"
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 08:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• defected to the Jin oin 1206
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 08:02, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "a multitude" is a bit WP:WEASELLY
  • Wording changed.--Typing General (talk) 08:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• I would examine additional categories that might be appropriate, like Category:History of Manchuria if appropriate.
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 08:10, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

That's it. Well done so far.

Jurchens/Jin, Han Chinese/Song, and Khitan/Liao are synonymous. Jurchens/Han Chinese/Khitans are ethnic groups, while Jin/Song/Liao are political dynasties ruled by the aforementioned ethnicities. I will work on the article to make this distinction less ambiguous in the text.--Typing General (talk) 07:07, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Comments. Just some basic copyediting advice, if you're looking to take this to A-class or FAC.

• "The Jurchen campaigns against the Song Dynasty were a series of military campaigns conducted by the Jurchen Jin Dynasty against the Song Dynasty. The conflict began with a declaration of war on November 1125.": See WP:Checklist#repetition. "A series of Jurchen military campaigns against the Song Dynasty began with a declaration of war on November 1125." It's not forbidden to bold it, but I wouldn't, per WP:BOLDTITLE.
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 07:44, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "decided to invade": Avoid "decided", more often than not, per WP:Checklist#mindreading ... even though the word is quite common elsewhere. Wikipedians generally have a preference (in historical narrative) for reporting what people did, rather than what we think they were thinking. Usually, the solution is to be more specific ... if an order was given to invade, or if a council agreed to invade, then say that instead.
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 07:44, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
• "The Jurchen campaigns were a milestone in the history of gunpowder": Avoid expressions that raise more questions than they answer. I like what you say below: "The battles between the Song and the Jurchens spurred the invention and use of various gunpowder weapons." - Dank (push to talk) 19:51, 4 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Now fixed.--Typing General (talk) 07:44, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Comment

• I have made a statement regarding the name of the article Timeline of Jurchen campaigns against the Song Dynasty which I think is wrong as it is unclear and does not meet the article content. It can be read over here. As I never got any reaction and it does meet this article 1:1, this is my review-comment. I would highly recommend an answer here or over there on the lists talk page. Regards --Bomzibar (talk) 08:10, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Answered on the talk page.--Typing General (talk) 06:57, 10 October 2013 (UTC)