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Kenneth Horne[edit]

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Kenneth Horne is one of the (slightly) unsung comedy greats of British radio comedy, who was at the centre of three of the BBC's most popular radio shows of the 1940s, 50s and 60s—Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh (1944–51), Beyond Our Ken (1958–64) and Round the Horne (1965–68). If that wasn't enough, he was a good businessman (including rising to chairman and MD of Chad Valley toys), a good sportsman (who played tennis with Bunny Austin and was on the same university relay team as the inestimable Lord Burghley) and a much loved and respected figure by all who knew him (except, possibly, wives and ex-wives). A trip to FAC is hoped for, unless the PR ratings are truly awful. Pip pip - SchroCat (talk) 00:00, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Crisco comments[edit]

  • Is Horne the playwright notable?
  • Not in the greater scheme of things, I think, but "our" Horne was mistaken for him more than once (it led to him getting married at one point)! - SchroCat (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In that case, wouldn't working this into the prose be more reasonable? Especially since WP:Hatnotes defines hatnotes as linking to articles. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:52, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've done a bit more digging and found reference to him in a literary encyclopaedia and an obituary in The Times, so I've started a stub on him and tweaked the redirect accordingly. - SchroCat (talk) 12:07, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ack-Ack, Beer-Beer - notable?
  • Probably not (I think...) but happy for others to contradict. - SchroCat (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is Mom notable? What kind of politician was she? Or was Dad being both a politician and evangelist the basis of the note in the lede?
  • Dad was both a preacher and MP. - SchroCat (talk) 21:43, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In which case I think the lede needs to be clearer. "Born to a preacher and politician" sounds as if they are two separate people. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Horne became a governor at the school. - Kenneth?
  • Yes. I've gone with identifying all other Horne's by first name and Kenneth by his surname. - SchroCat (talk) 21:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • was sent down - Britishism? Does it mean "expelled"?
  • Even more local than that - it's an Oxbridge thing (and one other I think too). I seem to remember that there is more to it than just the wording, as one isn't technically expelled from the institution. Very vague, I know! - SchroCat (talk) 21:14, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • For what it is worth, it was Durham university that was the other "sender down". I've linked for clarity. - SchroCat (talk) 00:30, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Austin Pilkington was aggrieved at Horne's failure to make the most of the opportunity he had provided, and he decided against offering him a post in the family firm. - Usage of he/him here may be confusing
  • Re-worked a little, which should now be clearer - SchroCat (talk) 23:49, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lady Mary Pelham-Clinton-Hope - Is she notable? Also, did Horne just say "yeah, we never consummated" or?
  • That was the wording on the divorce petition, which he did not contest or diagree wth. - SchroCat (talk) 21:43, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • a baby boy was born; he was stillborn. - repetition of the form "born"
  • In the initial months of the war, the Phoney War, - way to avoid war - war?
  • compere - worth a link?
  • Is Merry-Go-Round notable?
  • Same as Ack-Ack, Beer-Beer, probably not but happy for others to contradict. - SchroCat (talk) 23:36, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Desert Island Discs - italics, right?
  • In the same year, Much Binding came to the end of its run. - didn't you have a footnote about this earlier?
  • Indeed - and only a few lines before! The second reference now removed - SchroCat (talk) 10:09, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • After the first series Moody was succeeded by Bill Pertwee; Took left after the second series, leaving Merriman to write the remaining programmes on his own. - shouldn't we mention that the programme was extended first?
  • his own series of Trader Horne, - is this correct in BrE?
  • Bolivian Sex Goddess - caps in original?
  • Too many sentences starting with time references in #Legacy
  • Slight tweak, so that only two of the paras start with it now. - SchroCat (talk) 20:55, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a master of the scandalous double-meaning delivered with shining innocence" - Any examples?
  • Loads on the primary sources! I'll dig out some secondary ones. - SchroCat (talk) 20:50, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Found a goodie, which I've now added. - SchroCat (talk) 20:10, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • link man - quoi?
  • On the first day of recording the new show, Williams wrote in his diary of Horne that "I miss him dreadfully. I could weep for all that goodness gone from our atmosphere at the show". - sounds like the diary was about nothing but Horne
  • Quite the reverse : Williams's diaries tended to focus on himself so much, that good info on others is often hard to come by! - SchroCat (talk) 14:32, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In that case, I'd go "On the first day of recording the new show, Williams wrote in his diary that "I miss [Horne] dreadfully. I could weep for all that goodness gone from our atmosphere at the show". That would remove any ambiguity. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:11, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • siring - no horses, so not encyclopedic I think
  • Many thanks, Crisco! I'll work on these later today and tomorrow. All very much appreciated! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:38, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • All covered now, I think! Thanks again - SchroCat (talk) 20:10, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Awesome. Don't forget to ping me when the FAC starts. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:32, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton[edit]

First instalment: possibly more a little later today, but then I'm away for a couple of days. I enjoy reading about Horne, who I remember from my schooldays.

Lead
  • "Upon his demobilisation..." jarred a bit. Recommend "After demobilisation..."
  • "sideline" should not be hyphenated
  • Recommend delete "in order" (a generally disapproved form - check for others)
  • "alongside by" → "alongside"
  • "one of the seminal comedies to come out of the BBC": this quote is included and cited in the main text. In the lead a brief (uncited) paraphrase will suffice.
  • "His death brought an end to Round the Horne, which could not continue without him, although the series has been regularly re-broadcast since". This feels lumpy and a bit redundant, and the "although" modifier is dubious. I would simplify to "Since his death the series has been regularly re-broadcast".
  • "listener's" → "listeners' "
  • All tweaked, changed and altered. - SchroCat (talk) 18:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • I think it is necessary to give the subject's full name in the bolded section at the beginning of the lead. When the subject is known by a different version of the name, you can add parenthetically, in the first lead sentence: "generally known as [the popular name, in this case Kenneth Horne]".
  • I don't want to be too pernickety, but Katherine was not "The Hon" until her father became a peer in 1914. Thus she wasn't "The Hon" when Kenneth was born.
  • Much of the first three lines of the second paragraph, concerning Silvester, seems overdetailed to me, and would be better condensed into a couple of brief sentences.
  • "he was given the opportunity to go to" is somewhat verbose. "he was able to attend"?
  • "went up" is I think purely English idiom for going to Oxford or Cambridge (I don't remember "going up" to my less exalted university), and the term may not be understood by non-Brits.
  • "at rugby and in the relay team, alongside Lord Burghley": as punctuated, this reads as though Lord Burghley was a member of the rugby team, which I doubt. Reposition the comma after "rugby". Also, since Burghley was a hurdler, I'm curious to know the nature of the "relay team" – I'm sure they don't have hurdle relays.
  • (Punctuation part done). Difficult to say entirely: Hackforth tells us that Horne "shone in athletics, particularly as a hurdler", and Johnston says that Horne "became a member of the Magdalene College relay team alongside the great Lord Burghley". Our own article on Burghley shows him winning Olympic (and Empire) medals for both hurdles and relay). - SchroCat (talk) 21:53, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This site indicates that Burghley was a member of the 1928 4 x 400m Olympic team, so I imagine this was the team that Horne participated in at Magadlene, but the point is not really worth further research. Brianboulton (talk) 10:13, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Among his athletic exploits, he had neglected..." Not sure about this wording; I'd be inclined to rephrase.
  • (Aside) re first marriage: I wonder in what respect it was "at first happy", in view of Horne's failure to live up to his name?
  • To paraphrase Horne, if I see another double entendre, I'll whip it out! - SchroCat (talk) 21:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • All aspects covered as suggested. - SchroCat (talk) 21:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Service in the RAF
  • Slight chronology problem in the first para. The details of his promotion should be given after the sentence beginning "In the initial months of the conflict..."
  • We have "flight lieutenant" and "Flight lieutenant"
  • One is use as a general descriptor, one in a formal title—it's one of the WP:MILTERMS things. - SchroCat (talk) 21:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Horne arranged for Murdoch to be promoted to squadron leader and posted to his department at the Ministry": I don't know how the source words this, but I think it probable that Horne was able to arrange the transfer, and that the promotion went with Murdoch's new post. Middle-ranking officers cannot normally "arrange" promotions.
  • Both main sources are rather vague on the point, so I've moved it into a similarly nebulous form. - SchroCat (talk) 21:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The inserted snatch of dialogue is not related to the text. If it is here as a general sample of the show's humour, it should be within a side "quote" box, rather than mid-text. And I'm sorry, but...is this as funny as it gets?
  • It's as funny as the reliable sources can get at the moment. I'm still digging around to find something more suitable (and amusing!) - SchroCat (talk) 21:37, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • All done up to here - many thanks for taking the time to go through this! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:41, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Continuing
Postwar, a double career
  • "return to civilian life" is not worth a link
  • "he further progressed a television career": This transitive verb form doesn't read well in English prose – it sounds like management-speak. I think I would recast this entire sentence, which is choppy, full of sub-clauses, and hard to take in.
  • "By the fourth series of Much-Binding in 1950, the listener figures had declined to a concerning level for the BBC": Again, oddly awkward phrasing. Perhaps "to a level that concerned the BBC", but it might we worth trying a few further tweaks.
  • When you say the BBC chose to "terminate the programme", that suggests they cancelled it mid-series. Is that what happened? Or did they let the series end, and not recommission it?
  • I'm not sure that a joint appearance on Desert Island Discs in 1952 could be said to "cement" a comedy partnership which was at that stage pretty well set in concrete, as a result of Much-Binding etc
  • "The show was broadcast in October 1957, and Horne was joined by..." The "and" conjunction is wrong. Replace with semicolon or recast sentence ("The show, in which Horne was joined by ... was broadcast in October 1957".)
A single career
  • "He went on to tell to tell Horne..." Verbose. ("He told Horne...")
  • "all plans for Beyond Our Ken were immediately suspended" - neither the "all" nor the "immediately" are neessary.
  • "Horne eased himself back into broadcasting as chairman of Twenty Questions in April, which showed the BBC enough evidence of his recovery that Beyond Our Ken began recording in June, in preparation of the broadcast of series one between July and November". Too long, and with some slightly dodgy grammar. My suggestion: "In April 1958 Horne eased himself back into broadcasting as chairman of Twenty Questions. This evidence of his recovery was sufficient for the BBC to begin recording Beyond Our Ken in June, in preparation for the broadcast of series one between July and November".
  • What is meant by the "first edition"? Is this the first "episode"? What is a "sample audience" – do you mean a sample of listeners, or is this a special group on which the show was tried out prior to briadcasting? Is there any reason why a programme that was not initially well received should be extended from six to 21 episodes, and then recomissioned? You probably need to insert something like: "but the BBC decided to back Horne and his team, and..."
  • Try to avoid using semicolons in successive sentences (this is definitely a pot-kettle situation, I admit!)
  • The phrase "came to an end" is used twice in quick succession, referring to the demise of Beyond Our Ken. I'd begin the paragraph: "The seventh series of Beyond Our Ken finished in February 1964, with..." etc
  • I'm not sure that encyclopedic objectivity allows the use of loaded descriptions, e.g. "dreadful", "outrageous" etc
  • I've taken out "dreadful", and found an academic source that actually uses the words "outrageously 'camp'"! - SchroCat (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He was much weakened by the attack, and was unfit to work for three months, which included not taking part in the Round the Horne Christmas special." I don't think "included" can cover things that didn't happen, e.g. "My life has included not climbing Mount Everest". Needs rewording.
  • Something has gone wrong with the prose here: "Three weeks after the fourth series of finished, Horne A'Plenty was broadcast on ITV." Also, as Horne A'Plenty was a series, not a single programme, you should say "the first episode of...".
Death and tributes
  • "but had stopped taking them" → "but had stopped taking it"
  • "just" twice in third line
  • "The televised version of the event..." I think you mean "The televised recording of the event"
  • Personal view: the "whip it out" joke is really a bit old and stale now – do we want this to be Horne's identifying line, particularly in view of the graceful tributes that follow? I think, by the way, you could paraphrase Jennings a bit; 90 words is rather too long.
  • Probably not. I've whipped it out (sorry, couldn't resist—promise it will be the last time). - SchroCat (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Persona and technique
  • Not sure about this heading. A "persona" is a character in a play (as in "dramatis personae") or an assumed identity. Horne was Horne – he wasn't a character in a play, nor was his identity assumed. It seems to me that his technique was to be exactly himself in every situation, however absurd it might be. Probably "Technique" would be enough as a heading
  • Duplicated words: "but very personal"
  • "Academics Frank Krutnik and Steve Neale..." Tim will pick you up on this. It's American or tabloid usage – good English usage requires a "the" before the description. I'm not sure that "academics" is the best description for this pair, given that Stephen Neale is the name of a well-known academic philospher, which might confuse. I'd describe them as "The media analysts..." or some such.
  • This pair both "see" (present) and "considered" (past). Tense consistency is necessary.
  • I think "Referring to..." rather than "Describing" his ability with voices
Legacy
  • I've got my doubts as to whether the content of this section presents a "legacy", though I can't offhand suggest a better title.
  • Give date (or at least year) for the Fantabulosa film
  • What, briefly, was the nature of Round the Horne – Unseen and Uncut?
  • Delete the "then" which starts the next sentence.
  • "unproduced" → "unbroadcast", to avoid misunderstanding? And if it had never been performed, it could not have been "revived" in 2009.
  • "The show was recorded at the Radio Theatre, Broadcasting House on 10 June 2009 and first broadcast on 1 September." Perhaps too much detail here – more than you've given for any other broadcast.
  • "Horne has since been made the subject of two biographies..." Since what, or when? Suggest delete.
  • Comma required after "BBC4 Extra".

I have not checked out the tables or the footnotes. As to the text, a little more general polishing should have everything in order. Brianboulton (talk) 19:55, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • All done, as per suggestions. Many, many thanks for your time and effort on this: it is, as always, very much appreciated. - SchroCat (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oar stuck in by Tim riley[edit]

I shall be reviewing this, but am waiting till all, and even sundry, have had their say, as this is a topic on which I feel very strongly and shall wish to spread myself. Meanwhile I'll tether my nadgers to a grouting pole, for the old grey mare is grunging in the meadow. Well better there than here; it makes so much work for the char. Tim riley (talk) 21:59, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks! I shall look forward to reading your comments when all others have cleared the field, and after you've finished wurdling your glowing possets round your russet-banger. Pip pip! - SchroCat (talk) 22:43, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Tim, I shall be out of action until about Monday, so there's no need to ait for me to finish if you have time this weekend. Brianboulton (talk) 09:54, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A few minor points by Edgepedia[edit]

This guy was just before my time, but I read through the article and have a few minor points:

  • Shouldn't there be a comma before the which in the second paragraph of the lead?
  • General strike: I get 'services' repeated above each other on subsequent lines. How about "During the general strike in 1926 volunteers..."
  • "Mary filed for divorce ... the marriage was annulled." To me the 'filed' sounds American and I would say applied. Also divorce and the annulment of a marriage are different - unless she had an incompetent solicitor Mary would have applied for an annulment.
  • All tweaked now to her applying for an annulment. - SchroCat (talk) 09:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm a bit unsure about the position of the full stops before or after the quotation marks in some of the quotes.
  • Should be OK: I've used the full stop before close where both the quote and I close the sentence, and after the quote marks where the quote hasn't included the stop. - SchroCat (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think emdashes and endashes, when used to divide sentences, shouldn't be mixed in an article (See WP:ENDASH)
  • Never heard it called that before! Thanks for the link - and for the review too. All done except one, which I want to check the sources about tomorrow. - SchroCat (talk) 23:54, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Final point now checked - all done. Many thanks for your thoughts, and the copy edits too. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 09:42, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]


Comments from Tim[edit]

First batch. More to come.

  • Lead
    • I'm leaving this till after I've read the rest.
  • Early years
    • Ampthill Square – I've just looked it up, and it's a stone's throw from Mornington Crescent. Perfect symmetry. I'd suggest you mention the general area, but I'm blest if I know what to call it. It's not quite Somers Town, not quite Camden Town. Best left alone, perhaps.
    • "Horne attended St George's School, Harpenden" – as a boarder I imagine: rather a trek from Mornington Crescent every day for a schoolboy
    • "Horne joined the LSE" – "joined" seems not quite right, as though the LSE was an open-access institution. Something like "was admitted to" or "enrolled at", maybe?
  • Service in the RAF
    • "Horne's duties were small" – "few" or "undemanding" rather than "small", possibly?
    • "the station commander of Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh"; with much in common" – much too much in the way of muches. Perhaps "a great deal in common"?
  • Postwar, a double career: 1945–58
    • "which they both wrote" – I don't think you want the "both" here
    • "Murdoch and Horne further again appeared" – I'd lose "further", I think
    • BIF para – is there nothing of interest to mention between his joining and its closure? Seems a bit bald as it is. I haven't got my copy of Hackforth to hand, but I seem to remember he got a bit of mileage out of KH's business dealings. What about his reluctance to talk show biz at work, and his "Feel free to call me Mr Horne"?
    • the compere on Variety Playhouse – a word or two on what this show was would help here.
  • A single career: 1958–69
    • Again from memory, wasn't he speechless for a while? Do I recall a merciless masseur and his joy when he wrenched KH too hard and KH shouted, "You bugger!"?
      • I'll avoid making the ribald comment this deserves... - SchroCat (talk) 16:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Twenty Questions – definitely needs itals and possibly there's an article to link to.
      • It's linked in the section above, but this one now in italics. - SchroCat (talk) 20:05, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll stop now, till I can get at my bookshelves this evening and write less speculatively here. Tim riley (talk) 15:54, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • All done, bar the BIF, which I'll beef up shortly. Many thanks for your comments so far - I hope I've jogged a few humorous memories for you and Brian with this! - SchroCat (talk) 20:20, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Second and concluding batch:

  • A single career (continued)
    • "broadcast of series one" – no real need for consistency in such a matter, but earlier and later you use "the first series" form rather than "series one".
    • "when he was surprised by Eamonn Andrews in central London" – is today Try to Slip a Double-entendre Past the Producer Day? Readers unfamiliar with the modus operandi of This is Your Life might very well wonder exactly what Seamus was doing to cause Horne such surprise ("Good heavens, I thought you could only get those in Tokyo".)
      • Sorry—I'm always trying to slip one in somewhere or other! - SchroCat (talk) 20:27, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "They included…" – Not sure of your policy on full stops: you have given J. Peasemold Gruntfuttock one (be quiet, Williams!) but not Dr Chu En Ginsberg.
  • Death and tributes
    • "at The Dorchester" – I don't think the definite article should be capitalised. The WP article is in two minds about it, I see, but I'd go for lower case.
    • I don't know that I'd have linked Martian.
  • Legacy
    • Two points about Barry Took's second wife: first, were they actually divorced or was she technically his widow? Secondly, the ODNB spells her first name as Lynn, not Lyn, though I suspect the ODNB is wrong. I merely mention it.
      • As far as I can see, widow: they were separated, not divorced, and widow matches the sources. I have tweaked to show this. I think the ODNB is out of step here: the weight of other sources suggest Lyn. - SchroCat (talk) 20:39, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Horne has been made the subject of two biographies" – I'd drop the "made", I think.
    • "and, 30 years later" – as you give the dates of both books this phrase seems unnecessary (as well as arithmetically dodgy)
  • Notes
    • a. a governor of rather than at, I'd say
    • b. It wasn't the balloons that were the target audience, so much as the crews
    • l. This touching line seems to me too good to be tucked away in the notes: might you consider moving it to the main text?

Finita la commedia! I cannot tell you what pleasure this article has given me. First rate stuff! On to FAC, please. Tim riley (talk) 19:04, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Afterthought, as brain catches up with eyes: are you quite sure it's "Chu" not "Chou" en Ginsberg? Tim riley (talk) 19:08, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All done, bar one, the technicalities I'll run past you on the talk page. Many, many thanks for your comments here and the ones on my talk page and email too! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:27, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closing PR: a huge thanks to all who took part in this. I found it extremely useful, and the article is in much, much better shape than before. - SchroCat (talk) 20:32, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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