Wikipedia:Peer review/L'Orfeo/archive1

L'Orfeo

This peer review discussion has been closed.

Monteverdi's L'Orfeo, composed in 1607, has claims to be considered, if not as the very first opera, as the first of any consequence. It is certainly the earliest still in general repertory, and is a musical revelation (listen to the bracing Toccata for a taster). I hope eventually that the article can join Monteverdi's other two surviving operas on the Featured list, and comments on all aspects will be most welcome. One small point: each of the two earlier Monteverdi opera articles includes a detailed list of the opera's musical items. In the case of L'Orfeo, I intend to hive this off into a separate list, with a link to the parent article - I shall be working on this as the PR proceeds. Brianboulton (talk) 10:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments transferred from talkpage:

Just casting a peer's eye over your sources:

• Further reading "Neef, Sigrid (ed.) (2000). Opera: Composers, Works, Performers (English edition). " is (English edition) really part of the title?

• No, you are right. Fixed.

• In external links can "Damian H. Zanette (February 2007)" be fully cited? (It may not be able to be)

• Zanette has something useful to say about clefs, so I've cited him in the "Roles" section. From a quick google search he appears to be a scholar of some significance.

• Bibliography references from Claudio Monteverdi: Orfeo. are a little confusing, particularly "Sternfeld, F.W.; Whenham, John (ed.) (1986)." Is Whenham always the editor? Is he also an author of Sternfeld and Whenham? But he isn't listed as the editor of Whenham in same work? This may be cultural because for chapters I'm used to Author (Year) "Chapter" Editor (ed.) Work Place: Publisher.

• Whenham is the overall editor, and also a contributor. The cite book template isn't designed for such complexities. However, I have taken your advice and reformatted.

• Bibliography: Source diversity including age diversity looks good. Presses all look good. Source specificity looks good, finding a scholarly collection of chapters was a great idea.
• Footnotes (all futher comments are footnotes): "Oxford Music Online." is surely a containing work, does it deserve Oxford Music Online. Italics in your style?

• WP:MOS reserves italics for print sources. Oxford Music Online is by definition not a printed source

• Footnotes work authors with multiple works inconsistent, Fenlon, "The Mantuan Orfeo" (Author Short title) but yet Carter (2002) (Author Year).

• The date in Carter (2002) is to distinguish it from Carter OMO. The two Fenlon entries have to be distinguished by title since they are both 1986. Likewise the two Fortune entries.

• "Carter (2000)" repeatedly given in footnotes, couldn't locate in bibliography or previous citation in notes?

• That is my mistake. All 2000s should be 2002 (and now are).

• Hugill, Robert (24 April 2006). ; Music and Vision appears to be an online magazine, Italics?

• Per Oxford Music Online, if it's not printed it doesn't get italics

• "Uwe Schneider's Letters from Berlin 2004". ; operajaponica appears to not be a magazine or a publication, just a publisher, non italics?

• This citation was added by someone else. I have now fully formatted it.

• "Monteverdi's Orfeo" (BBC) has a radio station (Radio 3), a last broadcast date, and an episode number in a continuing programme series. Consider adding at least the broadcast station?

• Details added.

• ""Royal Opera House Collections"" Broken link :( They must have changed their internal website methods.

• I don't think it's broken. It goes to a page that confirms that there are no recorded ROH performances of L'Orfeo. I will investigate whether there is a better way by which this same information can be conveyed.

• Looking good! Fifelfoo (talk) 05:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• Thank you very much for visiting this page, and for your very helpful suggestions which have largely been implemented. Brianboulton (talk) 16:19, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for writing such good notes / bibliography. Caught by my own inability to triple check multiple works by authors! MOS, what a silly thing, dead trees versus digital bits determining source formatting, and not mode of utterance (formally published versus just put up on line). I didn't expect that a reference would be used to indicate a "no search found!" Perhaps that reference needs a pre or post-note to indicate that for people simply reading the refs. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:40, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Voceditenore

These are some preliminary thoughts, will add more as I look through the article over the next few days. Overall, it's looking very good, but here are couple of things to think about in the 20th century revivals section

• It could be usefully pruned. For example why this one?...

  including a much-praised production in April 2006 by the Chinese director Chen Shi-Zheng. The composer-critic Robert Hugill called this performance "a masterclass in how to integrate performance practice into a modern opera house"

  The reviews in the mainstream press were rather mixed, actually, and why the space given to a quote from Hugill, who is of very marginal notablity as a composer and who virtually never gets his reviews into print sources. The one used here is from mvdaily.com. If keeping mention of the production better to state what was unusual about it, if anything. It's certainly no more unusual or notable than this one, which incidentally had a baritone, Simon Keenlyside singing Orfeo (a role he has reprised several times).

• I have been concerned about the length and detail of this section (see comments/discussion on talkpage), and have struggled to keep it within bounds. Following your comment I have struck the Chen Shi-Zheng production, and also the Innsbruck Music Festival, which otherwise looks oddly isolated in the section. I don't see that much else can be removed without the section losing its purpose - a brief survey of the evolution in productions from occasional experimental versions within music institutes to regular full-scale productions in mainstream festivals and opera houses. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• Given the immense range of Francesco Rasi's voice, the fact that baroque tenors were actually quite baritonal, and the several high baritones who have successfully sung the role (see also [1] and [2] for example), perhaps this:

  Gérard Souzay, who sang the title role despite being a baritone

  might be changed to

  Gérard Souzay, one of several baritones who have sung the role.

• Agreed and done. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• Red link to Innsbruck Festival should be changed Innsbruck Early Music Festival (There's also an Innsbruck Film Festival.)

• I have removed this link. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for these comments; I will look forward to more anon. Brianboulton (talk) 10:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

It's much better now. I agree that you don't want to take too much out. I think modern performance sections are very important. Even that ENO production was interesting for the use of Javanese dancers which is much more relevant to the article than Hugill's quote which was not terrribly informative. Voceditenore (talk) 16:02, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• Been looking at the Music section and noticed that both madrigal and ritornello are not currently linked either in that section or anywhere else in the article. Suggest they be linked. You might also want to "courtesy-link" again toccata and maybe also chitarrone and cornett, but that's not essential. I know opinion is divided on that practice. Voceditenore (talk) 17:39, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• Added the links as suggested. Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Re the referencing to Oxford Music Online. It's a bit generic. The various references to this should make it clear at some point that these are online versions of the full text of printed Grove reference works, The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, 2nd edition (2001) and The New Grove Dictionary of Opera (1992) both edited by Stanley Sadie, so that readers without a subscription can access them in a library or at least know what they are. The Whenham "Orfeo" is from The New Grove Dictionary of Opera, the "Striggio" and "Monteverdi" articles appear in The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians. Voceditenore (talk) 08:44, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• I've not done this before with OMO, but I've added notes to the appropriate refs, referring to the print versions. If you can suggest a better way of doing this, please do. Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

• Yes that seems OK. Alternatively, you could list the hardcopies in Sources and just add to each ref: (online version of Sadie and Tyrrell (2001)) or Sadie (2004), whichever applies. Voceditenore (talk) 16:12, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments

Just a few comments. It seems ready for FAC.

Lede

• "one of earliest music dramas" article missing here?

  In the second paragrph, the transition from the second to the third paragraphs seems a bit jarring. It's the change of subject.

  "Gonzaga's particular passion ... " sentence could possibly use a split.

Libretto

• I don't understand why the Striggio ending is enigmatic. Just because Orfeo's death is "threatened"? What's that mean anyway? Physical or verbal? perhaps add a little more context here from the plot.

• Perhaps "ambiguous" is a better word. We know from the myth that the Bacchantes tear Orpheus apart. In Striggio's version they utter threats, but we don't see these carried out. So we are left wondering. I have made a minor text alteration to clarify this, and the point is reinforced in the Synopsis section. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Composition

• "he had acquired". I wonder if the word "acquired" actually adds anything here.

  "would have expected to collaborate creatively at each performance". Was it expected that the work only be put on once during each production? If it is put on multiple times, that is multiple performances, than a single collaboration would be sufficient, no?

• Individual productions tended to be the norm in those days; the concept of a "run" came later. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• Embellishment of arias. It would be interesting to know if composers of that time allowed embellishment as the singers saw fit, or prepared (as Monteverdi did) prewritten embellishments.

• Monteverdi composed some embellishments and left others to his singers. I think most composers did the same. From my eading I get the impression that Monteverdi was something of a control freak, so he probably composed more embellishments than most. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Instrumentation

• "music scholar" A slightly awkward phrase, perhaps "musicologist"?

• We have four musicologists already! (Tomlinson, Pirotta, Donington, Redlich). I'm trying for a bit of variety in the descriptions. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• Just curious, are small violins not part of the violin family?

• Yes, but I think Monteverdi separated them because they are not part of the two five-strings ensembles. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

• "However, as Harnoncourt indicates ..." Why is this "however"? It doesn't seem to contradict what was said before.

Synopsis

• Act 3, " Having pointed out the words inscribed on the gate ("Abandon hope, all ye who enter here") Speranza leaves." Is there any way of pointing out the obvious pun on Speranza (hope) here without holding up the flow of the text?

• The best I can do is to insert a footnote, which is what I've done. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

20th century revivals

• It might be a good idea to mention why major opera houses are reluctant to stage it, if this is known.

• Only some major houses are still reluctant; I can guess that the reason they continue to hold out is their perception that L'Orfeo is "early music", a niche genre rather than mainstream, but this is a personal view. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Music

• "ritornello" should probably be linked someplace.

Editions

• "After the publication of the L'Orfeo in 1609" I think the word "score" is missing here but I am not sure.

  "there have been many further attempts to edit and present the work," I think you could do without either the word "many" or "further".

  " Nikolaus Harnoncourt" Referred to as "Nicholas Harnoncourt" two paragraphs ago.

Again, very well done.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:05, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, thank you very much for your comments. Wher I have not responded I have followed your suggestions. I hope it looks better. Brianboulton (talk) 22:57, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Elcobbola (talk · contribs)

• No image issues; nicely done.
• File:Orfeo - Toccata.ogg - it would be optimal if it were explicitly articulated that Trisdee indeed made this recording (different, of course, than being a performer therein) and had the consent of the other performers. This is a relatively minor issue, however. Эlcobbola _talk 19:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comment. I will see what further information I can garner on the recording, though Trisdee has been inactive on Wikipedia since 2006 and may not be contactable. Brianboulton (talk) 20:26, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley

Precious little to add. This is a comprehensive, readable and well-referenced and illustrated article. A few quibbles, so small as to be barely visible with the naked eye:

• Lead
  • still performed on a regular basis – regularly, in fact
• Libretto
  • "clear" and "clearly" in close proximity in fourth sentence of first para
  • but there is no question that Monteverdi believed… – always a potentially ambiguous construction; safer to say "no doubt", I think, though you'd have to reword the earlier part of the sentence to avoid repetition – "Striggio's original ending was almost certainly used…" or some such
• Composition
  • You are inconsistent (here and passim) with your elliptical dots. I believe the preferred form is a space on either side of the three dots.
• Premiere and early performances
  • First image caption – rather odd and seemingly gratuitous to tell us that the photograph is "modern"
• 20th century revivals
  • Hindemith's 1943 edition – its first mention: should be bluelinked to the Hindemith article, and perhaps fleshed out in a few words at this point
  • London on 7th February – for consistency and house style this should be "London on 7 February", I think
  • On 6 May 2010 the BBC broadcast a performance of the opera from La Scala – A blue link and even a "Milan" might be good here. (I don't suppose your readers will take this to be La Scala, Cleethorpes, but it would still be useful, one feels.)
• Music
  • While Monteverdi was not in the generally-understood sense an orchestrator, … it is the element of instrumental improvisation that makes each performance of a Monteverdi opera a "unique experience, and separates his work from the later operatic canon." – this seems to set up a false antithesis: is it not because rather than "while" Monteverdi didn't orchestrate his stuff that it is unique and distinct from later operas?
• Recording history
  • and from the mid-1950's – otiose apostrophe
• Editions
  • some of great distinction—Carl Orff … Ottorino Respighi – of great distinction? Up to a point, Signore Rame.

A meagre haul, but I can find no more. A model of its kind, as usual. – Tim riley (talk) 12:38, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for these comments. I have followed your suggestions, with an occasional variant of my own but I think all your concerns are met. In particular I have cashiered Respighi, poor man. Brianboulton (talk) 13:35, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Note: Thanks for all the above comments. I have closed the review. Brianboulton (talk) 18:44, 30 September 2010 (UTC)