Wikipedia:Peer review/List of Meerkat Manor meerkats/archive1

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List of Meerkat Manor meerkats

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I believe this list may be an excellent candidate for Featured List status, but would like to get some outside feedback on it to make sure it is as good as it can be before submitting. I know one issue is probably the lack of images, which is being worked on, but are there any other issues that need to be addressed? Are the meerkat descriptions well balanced between reality and the series? Any places that do not appear to be well sourced? Anything missing from the introduction? etc.

Thanks in advance,

AnmaFinotera (talk) 00:32, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have only ever watched one or two episodes of MM and remember almost nothing of the "in-universe" bits, but I still want to help make this article more accessible for the non-fan. However, I'll go to bed in a few minutes and will only start my peer review (more to come later).
    • Intro: If their name is changed or spelled differently in the American or Australian broadcast, this will be noted. -> can be shortened into something like "Name and spelling differences in the American or Australian broadcast are noted."
    • Intro: are (not) listed in three consecutive sentences
    • Intro: Name the main groups, maybe even mention the main individuals, generally repeat or more general plot sentences from elsewhere to give the reader an idea what he will read below
    • Whiskers: repeat again that they are meerkats
    • Whiskers: successful needs a reference
    • Whisters: Her daughter Rocket Dog is now the dominant female. - "now" what
    • Whiskers: The Whiskers once ranged over a three square mile territory - "once" when (I know the following info says second and third series, but still)
    • Whiskers: shortly explain who the Commandoes and the Zappa are (maybe just "a rival group", I don't know)
    • Whiskers: were selected 2x
    • Flower: Flower was the fearless and formidable dominant female of the Whiskers for five years. screams OR, as does Though Flower was known for ruling with an "iron paw", she was also a devoted mother and had a gentle side with pups. If the sources say so, it's better to source the adjectives directly
    • Flower: "...the breeding ... and survival." - quotes require a reference right behind the quote, even if the following sentece uses the same reference
    • Flower: Giving birth 2x, would later 2x, allow back 2x
Good night. :-) – sgeureka t•c 01:16, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. You always give great feedback! I think I've addressed everything. I reworded the repeated stuff, and expanded the intro a bit. I also made sure sources were applied to the rogue sentences. and yes, the OR sounding adjectives are from the source (her "obituary"). Should I add quotes to better note that? AnmaFinotera (talk) 01:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Next session:
    • General: time tense - WP:WAF advices simple present because plot is not supposed to be a historical account, although MM is kind of real and fictional, so I don't know. Anyway, the article seems to be written from the perspective of season 2, often season 3, with some simple past and some simple present. This is especially awkward for season 1 viewers, and makes it hard later if more seasons are produced, making season 3 "old news". Also, some readers who haven't watched all of the series, usually want to know when spoilers (from their perspective) begin season-wise, so "in season 2" helps them a lot.
    • General (just an idea): link names (through anchors) when they first appear but when the characters/groups are only described in later sections
    • General: give more sense of time for each major event (death, giving birth etc.) in each section via e.g. "late in the first season", for example in "Tosca" and "Mitch"
    • General: Consider adding a lead image of the MMs to the intro of the article, even if it's only fair use. A google search shows many groupshot images with lots of MMs in one image, which I think would work nice here (you would know better)
    • Tosca: She was evicted from the Whiskers by her mother for having pups - better: Her mother evicted her from the Whiskers for having pups
    • Axle: doesn't mention gender until late in the second sentence
    • Intro paragraphs of Lazuli: Pretty good; even uses Simple Present
    • Big Si: Duplicates information that has just been mentioned in the intro paragraphs. Consider moving some intro info to Big Si, or expand Big Si. Anyway, also seems pretty short for a dominant MM.
    • Good so far: the amount of in-universe detail seems about right for each character; the producer comments and audience reception work mostly fine after each in-universe paragraph (at least for GA status)
I'll leave the Commandoes, the Zappa and the rest for later. – sgeureka t•c 20:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I worked on most of those. I'm not very good with tenses at all, so I'm not quite sure how to do simple present. I was working to do past tense thinking it should be written as the events have already happened. Everything shown in the show happened in the year prior, so series 3's stuff happened in late 2006 and early 2007, while series 4 is being filmed now. I tried to work on it a bit, but I'll definitely see if a copy editor can help there before sending it up for FL. :)
I asked at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(writing_about_fiction)#Meerkat_Manor. – sgeureka t•c 21:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
AP has released quite a few nice images, but didn't give any descriptions for them, so I plan to get some of the DVDs of the series this weekend to add in identifiable group shots for each of the major groups. I agree on Big Si's section, but since there is no verifiable way to say his real name was Jim Bob, I can't include any of his extensive history from before the series like I could with some others. AnmaFinotera (talk) 03:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • A script has been used to generate a semi-automated review of the article for issues relating to grammar and house style. If you would find such a review helpful, please click here. Thanks, APR t 16:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • More
    • General: Some people nitpick that footnotes should be ordered, e.g. [4][21] not [21][4]
    • Commandoes: very bad example of tenses - Though the Whiskers are able to kill one of the Commandoes during a fight, the Commandoes later evicted the Whiskers and took over part of their territory. - The very old past gets Simple Present treatment, while the nearer past is written in Simple Past.
    • Commandoes: uses "Though" three times, and I'm not sure whether "Although" would (sometimes) be the better choice (see also "Punk" section)
    • Hannibal: Sounds like an advertisement :-D, kind of ORish (although it is sourced)
    • Zappa: but were defeated - who was?
    • Zappa: In reality, while there is a Zappa group... - very awkard sentence/grammar with all the commas and hyphens
    • Zappa: The Zappa group is named after the musician Frank Zappa. - (1) source? (2) move to the very beginning of the section
    • Lola: weird mixture of Simple Present and Simple Past
    • Starsky: and was possibly named after the television series Starsky and Hutch. - OR?
    • Starsky: From the start the group struggled to survive,... - something seems wrong with the grammar at the end of the sentence
    • Mozart: clearup needed for eviction, which is mentioned at least four times in one paragraph (too confusing)
    • Kinkajou: She was not seen much during the rest of the series other than to note that Flower had grown less tolerant of her and the her sisters. - "was not seen much" and "other than to note that" can be improved
    • General stuff from above (give a better sense of time etc.)
    • Idea: It takes a little time to get used to, but you can create a MM genealogy chart via {{familytree}}, like for instance Characters_of_Carnivàle#Genealogy.
Finished. Good luck. (Ask if you have questions.) – sgeureka t•c 21:54, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks again for spending so much time with this and giving me so much great feedback. I think I've addressed everything but the tense issue. I've added a picture as well, and plan to try to get some of the other meerkat groups, if possible. One thing I debated earlier this week was adding a section or paragraph discussing the basics of meerkat society, to help provide context for some stuff. Do you think that would help the article, or is just linking to the meerkat article with a few explanatory notes as needed sufficient?
The family tree idea is interesting, but might be too long considering how often Flower has pups in the series (prolific little bugger she is). I gave it a try in my user space, but discovered that in addition the width, another issue is parentage. While all of the pups Flower had during the series are from her and Zaphod, she was one mates with Yossarian, so there is currently no way to know if the older pups, particularly her oldest ones Tosca, Mozart, and Shakespeare, came from Zaphod or Yossarian :P AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:46, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome.
The picture looks good, but the meerkats look all the same to me, so I don't think more pictures are necessary.
I wouldn't bother with a society section unless you can get one solid paragraph (better two). The lead, although it is already sufficient in length, could however hold a few more words about society if you want. (?)
Yes, the family tree. Width can be regulated via stacking measures as in Potter_family#Family_tree, but if there is no clear information on the parentage, bordering into OR, it's better to not include it at all.
As for the tense, I just read Dorftrottel's comments in WT:WAF. I also checked how wikipedia deals with Big Brother, and they use Simple Past for the events in the BB houses. So I guess it's Simple Past then.
– sgeureka t•c 11:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay...I've gone through and changed the tense to what I think is simple past. Any other things you noticed before I send it off for copyediting and then FLC? *grin* AnmaFinotera (talk) 04:54, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll read over it again in full. All I can say at the moment about the intro (which I hadn't read after its expansion) is that it overuses the word "group". Also, the article focus is pretty much British ("series" instead of season, British spelling of the names), but I found the word "neighboring" instead of "neighbouring", which can be a consistancy issue(?). The sentences "a group called the Commandoes were introduced as one of the toughest rivals the Whiskers had ever faced" sounds fanish and not exactly NPOV. The subsentence "used for their primary identification" reads both redundant and tagged-on. I am neither a native speaker nor the FLC reviewer, so ignore any of these suggestions if your common sense says they don't apply. – sgeureka t•c 10:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
HmmmI'll see what I can do on the Commandoes. The show pumped them up to be rather vicious and "the evil" meerkats, but I'll see if can tone it down some. Alas, while I (mostly) remember to use series instead of season, I suspect most of my British spelling is hideous because it looks wrong to me LOL. I'll see if I can spot any that I know the British spellings for and try to fix them. Sorry it took me awhile to answer...I've been all over the place lately it seems. Nice clean up of the Whiskers intro, BTW, and much appreciated. :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 22:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am just giving you a heads-up that I will be away for a few days (but not nights) and that I think the article can still be improved through copyediting at places. I see you already placed a request with the League of Copyeditors. Depending how soon you want to take this article to FLC, I can still help out later. – sgeureka t•c 09:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks for the heads up, and agreed. I'm not in a super rush, so if you can get it before someone else, that's cool :) I'm still trying to rewatch season 1 to see if Big Si and Cazanna's sections can be filled out anymore...but alas, Big Si went nameless through quite a few of his first appearances :P AnmaFinotera (talk) 14:04, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Real life (school) has been keeping me busy and probably will continue to do so for some time. I've already got my wiki-plate quite full at the moment, so my progress on this list will be a little slower (but I still intend to finish my copyedit). In the worst case, the League will finish the job. :-) – sgeureka t•c 22:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, trust me I know the feeling :) AnmaFinotera (talk) 22:39, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The biggest problem by far is the lack of actual references. You cannot create a references section with 17/54 actual references. If you cannot find better reference sources, at least make sure you split the "inside" references that link to wiki articles of the episodes, and the other real references. Nergaal (talk) 12:43, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure I understand what you mean? As it is a list of meerkats from the series, how are the episodes of the series itself an invalid reference for their actions within the series? Most character articles of quality also are primarily referenced from the episodes/volumes of the work they are from? In this case, as the meerkats are real, real-world references for information outside of the show, or to confirm show details, are added as possible. AnmaFinotera (talk) 19:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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