Wikipedia:Peer review/Mucho Macho Man/archive1

Mucho Macho Man[edit]

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I intend to take it to FAC in the near future. I particularly welcome the input of non-horse racing people who can spot unfamiliar jargon that I may need to wikilink or clarify. I also will appreciate all prose and style suggestions and anything else. I previously brought Oxbow (horse) to a successful FA, and other editors have taken race horse articles such as Go Man Go to FA and TFA, should anyone want to compare this article to another horse racing article. Thanks, Montanabw^(talk) 20:48, 8 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

What makes turfsoul a high-quality reliable source?
Well, it's more of a literary blog see here, It's in to avoid OR as to the weird Seabiscuit connections, one of three sources that noticed all that stuff... I could probably verify each from better sources, but not sure when I'd be crossing the line to WP:SYNTH if I was the one to demonstrate the connections... ? Thoughts?--MTBW
My first thought is that that about page gives me less confidence in the source, not more, sorry. I would take out the last sentence of that paragraph rather than include this source, if those are the options available and assuming no better source makes the connections. Agree that it'd be heading towards synth if you were the one to make them. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Yeah, you are probably right, though it is the damnedest thing, isn't it? Montanabw^(talk) 22:57, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"a "win and you're in" preparatory race" - not clear where "in" is, and this doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article
In - to the Breeders' Cup without paying an entry fee; I'll double-check sources - Follow up: Fixed that, is it better now? --MTBW
Better, although I would suggest rewording the last bit about the fees to make it absolutely clear which race is being paid for (and possibly who's paying, if you think that's relevant). Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's mentioned down in the 2013 season section, which I expanded a bit, but tossed "win and you're in" from the lede, just to keep it simpler. --MTBW
The bit about Ritvo's heart transplant seems out of place as written, IMO

Got any ideas how to do it better? It's kind of a big deal; all the weird serendipity surrounding her and the horse. --MTBW

Maybe move it to where Ritvo becomes his trainer? Especially now that that quote has been added, it might fit better now to emphasize the connection. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The paragraph prior says that horse and trainer each survived life-threatening circumstances, first the horse, then her... would be weird to put it later, particularly when the relevant paragraph has the trainer switch in the middle. I think I'll take my chances with the current location unless I can figure out a better way to do it. --MTBW

Last paragraph of Background is mostly past tense, but it would seem that some of what is mentioned would still be applicable now?

Feel free to copyedit; always a tension between being current and the reality that if one doesn't stay on top of things the article is still in present tense three years later... --MTBW

Tweaked, please check. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:08, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's good, but when he retires we have to ping it to make is all past tense then, I suspect they will retire him after the 2014 Breeders' Cup in November if all goes according to plan. --MTBW

Do we have an article describing glued-on horseshoes?

We don't, it's a cool idea - the problem is most of the sources about the technology are done by the people who sell them. example search. Thoughts? I found another article that provided more detail on the shoes, added some more info--MTBW

Assuming we don't have an article on World's Best Racehorse Rankings, it might be worthwhile to briefly explain where that number comes from and what it means.
Ah we do, I linked it, it is the same as World Thoroughbred Rankings, changed name. @Tigerboy1966:: any additional advice here? FIXED? --MTBW
Racing stats table is showing up in tiny text on my screen; if there's no way to either scroll it or split it, I would really suggest taking out the "owner" column at the least
Yeah, I made the text smaller on purpose because the table was eating the article; it's wide for my screen too, but I don't yet have a better solution. The format is pretty common across the horse racing articles, I hate to move out owner, as though his ownership has been pretty consistent, that's not always true of other race horses. Maybe @Froggerlaura: has some formatting ideas? I made a couple of the other columns a little narrower--MTBW Follow up: Fixed thanks to RexxS. --MTBW
Why is Mr. Prospector both bolded and starred in the pedigree? If it's just because of doubling, one would probably suffice. And what is (Family 4-r)? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:09, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Standard on wikiproject horse racing to bold the inbreeding lines -- see most of the other articles with pedigrees. Not sure about asterisks? (WP Horse racing folks? Help) I think someone told me that it was because people with screen readers can't detect the bolding, not sure. I added a link to the Thoroughbred family stuff, those who care about pedigrees care about the historic mare families. --MTBW

@Nikkimaria: are the fixes we are making to the chart working for you, and can you pop by with replies to my questions above? Let me know if I've addressed your other concerns. Done again, I think. Montanabw^(talk) 20:14, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

"Due to his size, the growing colt sometimes also got in his own way during his early races as a three-year-old, twice stepping on his own feet and tearing off a horseshoe in a race." I really don't like that sentence. First of all, why also? Secondly, presumably he's now even bigger than he was then, but apparently doesn't step on his feet anymore? Thirdly, why the repetition of "races ... race", as we're only describing events that took place during a race? And fourthly, I'm not sure if there are two or three events being described: did he twice step on his own feet, on each occasion tearing off a shoe, did he twice step on his own feet and on one occasion tear off a shoe, or did he twice step on his feet and on a third occasion tear off a shoe?

Feel free to copyedit or suggest ideas; I agree that's awkward... Basically, imagine a big, gangly teenaged kid who likes to play basketball but keeps tripping over his own feet when he's 16 or 17, but by the time he's 25 he's grown into himself, filled out, and even if taller than when he was 17 is now a well-coordinated champion athlete and doesn't trip over himself any more. (human example, right - LOL) Like humans, young horses can be real klutzes when they are in a growth spurt, and because the horse grew to be so tall, he had more than his fair share of trouble. Down in the three-year-old season section, I explain it in more detail; he tore off a shoe in two different races, in both cases, he basically stepped on the heel of one of his front horseshoes with a hind foot, tearing off the shoe (and one time, a chunk of his hoof with it. Horses, having four legs, often have growth issues where first their front end grows faster than their back end, then their back end catches up but proceeds to grow faster than their front end, etc... and he must have been in a growth stage where his butt was growing faster than his front end, so he'd over-reach when he burst out of the starting gate. In the same section, I note what his trainer said, that by the end of the 2011 year, "his shoulders caught up with his behind." --MTBW
It's never occurred to me before that a four-legged animal might have different growth spurts front and back. Maybe a note to explain that? Eric Corbett 23:14, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm. Wonderful idea. Problem is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR -- This is one of those "most horse people know this, but finding a WP:RS to explain it? (not a bad idea, though) Being a horse person, I am quite sure that this was part of what was going on with him, but am sure someone at FAC will say, "yeah, but can you PROVE that this is why MMM had a problem with tearing off his shoes?"
Ah, I see what you mean. Eric Corbett 01:00, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Found an article where the people themselves said more about the shoeing thing and added it to article, see what you think. Montanabw^(talk) 22:39, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Eric Corbett 00:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Throughout most of his racing career, Mucho Macho Man has been owned in full or in a majority share ...". That reads very strangely to me. How can something be owned "in a majority share"?

I'm open to how to say that better and not paraphrase the source. Horses can be owned in shares, legal syndication, where many people buy ownership shares of a horse, is common. The Rios sold "a majority share" (who knows if 51% or 99%, no one says) to Dream Team One. Then Reeves bought a 70% interest in MMM from Dream Team One (don't know if Rios still had a share or not), then Reeves eventually bought out Dream Team One entirely to be 100% owners. Somewhere along the line, the Reeves' sold the Sivos a teeny-tiny share (some interview I saw said 1% but I can't find it now...), but Sivo never shows up as an owner, maybe because they have an interest in the business, not the horse (yes, it's confusing, I'm confused too) and then a few weeks ago, Stronach bought an "undisclosed" share in the horse. But basically, the Reeves call the shots and have done so since they first got involved. --MTBW

"... was shipped early to Santa Anita Park to prepare for the Classic". Presumably that's the Breeders Cup Classic?

Right, wasn't sure if I was saying "Breeders' Cup Classic" too many times...? --MTBW

"In February 2014, anticipating a future career as a breeding stallion, Reeves also reached an agreement with Frank Stronach ...". So Reeves was anticipating a future career as a breeding stallion? Aren't there laws against that sort of thing?
LOL! Fixed! --MTBW

"... Reeves also reached an agreement with Frank Stronach to purchase an undisclosed share in the horse". What's that also doing there?

I have no idea, it snuck in there when I wasn't paying attention. Too bleary-eyed from staring at the article too long. Feel free to tweak. If the nuance is changed too much, I can further discuss or refine... ? --MTBW

"In 2014, he returned to race for one more year, with the goal of returning to the Breeders' Cup, with a decisive win in the Sunshine Millions Classic." I really dislike with as a linking word, and particularly when it's doubled up like this. Returning to the Breeders Cup obviously wasn't the horse's goal anyway, but it's unclear what the relationship is between that goal and winning the Sunshine Millions Classic.

Bleech. You are right. Bleary-eyed again. Basically, the idea is that the horse will be racing (if past history is any indication) every six to eight weeks from the Sunshine Millions until the Breeders' Cup (in November), one race building on another -- pretty much like any human athlete, each competition honing them for the Big One at the end of the season. --MTBW

Eric Corbett 18:06, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, answers above. I'll try to do some copyediting to fix this, but am at the point where I don't have very fresh eyes, so all suggestions are welcomed! Montanabw^(talk) 22:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by SFGMary

Not done--still looking Why was he placed first with Tim Ritvo and then with his wife? I'd explain that. It raises a question in my mind. Ah you do later on. Ok.

Is it a problem in how it is worded, could I improve that any? --MTBW

What's a Grade 1 win? I'd explain that to non racing people. And Grade 3 later on.

I wikilinked it to graded stakes race - I think, but maybe need to do in a different spot or for each different word? --MTBW

In the following, what are these connections? His owners??? His connections next entered him in the Santa Anita Handicap on March 8. In choosing to return to California,

Owners/trainer combo, basically. I wikilinked it to the Glossary of North American horse racing terms the first time I used the word (I think) does that help -- or did I not wikilink it at all? --MTBW

Maybe mention the term forging. It is present in W. under conformation and some breeds.

In reference to how he kept grabbing his front shoes with his back feet? Hmmm. Interesting idea. The problem is that the conformation article doesn't explain what it is, either. We probably need to do an article on it or add explanation to Glossary of equestrian terms or something... the other problem is WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH which could argue that if we can't find an article to say he was forging, then we can't say it either - :-P --MTBW

What is this? Highly capitalized i.e. Big purse? Why is there an apostrophe in it? "Big 'Cap"

Nickname for the Santa Anita Handicap, I was just trying not to keep saying "Santa Anita Handicap" too many times and got into sportswriter prose; open to rewording or something if it isn't working! --MTBW

Cite "impost" w/in Wikipedia.

WIll link to wiktionary. wikt:impost. does that work? --MTBBW

So where is he now? Did I miss that?

RIght this second, he is probably back in Florida prepping for his next race, whatever it will be. He is still actively racing, so this article isn't "done" yet in that sense; my goal for FAC is to possibly have it run at TFA on 2014 Breeders' Cup day this November. Maybe --MTBW

Grammar and wording need improvement. Grammar is incorrect here:

but he remained in training with the same team and racing under Reeves' colors.

I'd say "raced under Reeves' colors" or take out and.

FIXED. Please feel free to make other small tweaks if you'd like to do so. --MTBW

SFGMary (talk) 04:42, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi all, thanks for the constructive and helpful remarks. I think I will go ahead and put this article up for FAC shortly. Any minor glitches I haven't yet addressed will undoubtably be caught by the FAC reviewers. Montanabw^(talk) 22:57, 14 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]