Wikipedia:Peer review/Olive Morris/archive1

Olive Morris

I've listed this article for peer review because it was recently made a good article and I'd like to collaborate with others to make it a featured article. 26 June 2022 would be Olive Morris' 70th birthday if she was still alive and that seems a useful deadline to have to get her article on the frontpage. All comments welcome! Many thanks, Mujinga (talk) 12:28, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments by Caeciliusinhorto

An interesting article! A few prose points to consider:

• Is "Black Women's Movement" in the lead really a proper noun?
  • hmm yes Women's liberation movement is lower case so perhaps Black women's movement is better, leaving as is for now to see if there are other opinions Mujinga (talk) 17:46, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "police officers pulled from the car and questioned him" - should this be "pulled him from the car"?
  • absolutely, I'd also managed to write diplomant for diplomat, uggg Mujinga (talk) 17:47, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "A crowd formed around them and then a physical altercation took place" - "then" is perhaps superfluous here
  • for me it reads better with "then" but happy to see what others think Mujinga (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "the police reaction being to beat her also" - I don't love this: it reads a little clunkily to me. Consider rephrasing
  • indeed, rephrased Mujinga (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "Morris's account as published in the Black people's news service" - should "Black people's news service" be capitalised as a proper noun?
  • yes - checked with source and it was a local newpaper, added that detail too Mujinga (talk) 17:53, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "She did not state how she got involved but does state that she was brutally beaten." - tense change (did vs. does) and repetition of "state"
  • rephrased Mujinga (talk) 17:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "fined £10" - £10 in 1969 was a rather more significant fine than it sounds today - it might be worth saying what that would be worth adjusted for inflation
  • hmm yes true, I'll have a quick play around with the inflation template Mujinga (talk) 17:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
  • the template gives "fined £10 (equivalent to £210 in 2020)" which I don't think is worth adding, thanks for the idea though! Mujinga (talk) 18:02, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "Morris squatted buildings" - the OED confirms that "squatted buildings" is an acceptable usage, but it reads oddly to me; I wouldn't be surprised if you get questioned on this
  • yes indeed I've had that conversation before with people and am happy to supply academic sources using the phrase, but OED should be authoritative there Mujinga (talk) 17:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
• "The site subsequently became an anarchist project, known as the 121 Centre, which existed until its eviction in 1999" - can a project be evicted?
  • as above, for me this reads fine and can supply academic sources if required. with squats, the project and the building which houses the project become merged Mujinga (talk) 17:58, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Must run now, but I will try to find time to give the article another look over later Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 17:37, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the comments! Mujinga (talk) 08:46, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Comments by SusunW

Yay! Thank you for working on her Mujinga. In my first read through, I get biographical details, but no sense of who she was or what she was fighting for. As a political activist, it seems to me that the emphasis should be on her positions on issues that she thought were important. We have more information in the article on the one event regarding Clement Gomwalk than on the organizations and political actions she was involved in. Why was she an activist seems to be missing.

• So for instance, the Fawcett piece says she was a communist and believed in redistribution of wealth to achieve equality; a radical Black feminist, and fought against social class inequality and racial and sexual discrimination. This says she became involved in squatting perhaps as a personal need, (and this confirms that) but because "housing was a human right that the state has a responsibility to provide". (page 76) The Daily Mirror says the Panthers fought for equal education, employment and housing rights exposing racism in public institutions and defended black businesses against police raids and harassment, like the Mangrove Nine.WP Library link[1] Well, anyway I think you get the idea.
• The other thing that I see missing is context of the time period. This is the era of worldwide civil unrest. Anti-colonialism, human rights struggles, etc. Were I writing it, I would make sure that the context of her life is more specific, as it makes it clearer why "these" issues were important to her. (On that note, in the above comment, in my era, the Women's Liberation Movement or Black Feminist Movement would never be written without caps. They were the titles of movements, which were always capitalized. The WP penchant for de-capitalizing them is weird to me.) Archive.org has some pieces that may be of interest, i.e. [2],[3],[4] and these from a Google scholar search Violence at Desmond's Hip City: Gender and Soul Power in London (which I couldn't access there, but could here), Olive and me in the archive, and Black Women Who Have Struggled.
• In the text, you have "Remembering Olive Collective (ROC) was started,[1][3] It included…" The comma should be a period. But, also in line with the comments above, what is it? Tsang says it was an organization founded to preserve Morris' papers and make them available for historians to study. Through archiving them they broadened their scope to include intersections and records about underrepresented community members like those in the disability, LGBTQ, homeless, POC, and feminist sectors who had been left out of the historic record.

I get that my review isn't evaluating the text, grammar, or usual things people tend to focus on but if I were working this toward FA, these are the types of things I would expect to be there. SusunW (talk) 16:22, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

I was curious as to whether she was remembered in Jamaica. Found this piece in The Gleaner, which shows that Linton Kwesi Johnson wrote a poem about her. More here. SusunW (talk) 16:48, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Wow thanks a lot for these comments SusunW they are superhelpful! I will work my way through them Mujinga (talk) 09:36, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Already I get a much better sense of her. Thank you! By the way, the link I gave you for ZLibrary to access "Violence at Desmond's Hip City" is particularly useful as it gives complete versions of published works that are often only snipped or partial in Google books. It does require that you register, but registration is free. That particular work is good for fleshing out the background material of the period, especially the flavor of Brixton. Let me know when you are finished expanding it and I'm happy to do a more traditional review. SusunW (talk) 15:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Photos? [5],[6] SusunW (talk) 16:51, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Wow photos as well! You have sent me down some really interesting research wormholes today, which has been great. For example, the Darcus Howe biography has some snippets about Morris including her arrest with him and that led me on to the connection with C. L. R. James, who lived above the squatted Race Today offices on Railton Road. Must have been interesting times in Brixton! Thanks also for the Z-Library link, I use it sometimes and also feel duty bound to point out it can have pirate content because it's a shadow library, not that I personally think there's much wrong with sharing knowledge. OK back to the article, I def have some more reading to do :) Mujinga (talk) 18:10, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes, it's absolutely, to me anyway, about fleshing her out so that the reader can see who was in her circle, what influenced her, how she fit into her times, etc. I'm glad you are enjoying the scavenger hunt — it's the way I think of writing, looking for scraps here and there to piece them together for a whole story. I think I would've enjoyed Brixton at that time. I was actually trying to figure out who took that lede image because I would love to be able to have it be in commons and restored. Neil Kenlock doesn't allow his works be altered or used for commercial purposes and one of those sources said he was the author of many of her portraits. I wonder if an email to the cooperative or Lambeth Archives would be worth it to try to get a freely distributable image? I use ZLibrary with caution, but it's nice to know it's there, as I have to deal often with the "you can't access this from Mexico" message. (sigh) SusunW (talk) 18:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Yes it is really is enjoyable, a really good way to spend a Sunday. The only problem is drawing all the threads together and finishing up so I can eventually turn the computer off! I just wanted to say that I found all those flickr fotos are on commons already, they are just not well tagged so it's hard to find them (I used the catalogue reference). Good idea on the pix. Re "you can't access this from Mexico" one of your links was google.com.mx and it was denying me access, but when I changed it to google.com suddenly I did have access, so that might be worth playing around with (or maybe it was just a fluke). I know you also use wikipedia library and going through that has thrown up some more Morris links so I don't think I'm done just yet ... Mujinga (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Moving forward

SusunW thanks again for those comments, they really pushed me to search in different ways and the article is so much better for it! In any case I think I've added as much as I can now. I've never taken an article to FAC before so I'm unsure if it's ready or not. If you felt like giving an opinion on whether it seems ready to you that would be great, but also if you'd rather wait to give comments when it's actually at FAC that would also be amazing. Cheers, Mujinga (talk) 21:17, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Mujinga Happy to give it a once over. Can I have until the beginning of next week? It's my husband's birthday week and family are in town from the frigid north. Can't wait to see how it has developed. SusunW (talk) 22:22, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Sure whenever works for you, I think I'll leave the peer review open a bit longer in case anyone else feels like chipping in and I'll def want to give the article another read before taking it further. Have a great birthday week! Mujinga (talk) 10:43, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Mujinga I'll do what I always do, check the sourcing and then I can just state in the FA review that I completed it at Peer Review, if that's okay with you. (Spot check of sourcing is usually the thing that is hardest to get anyone to do, so that hurdle will be crossed.) While reformatting the sources is not required, I'd recommend per WP:INLINECLUTTER removing the full citations from the text and using brief descriptors there with full cites in the reference section. (IMO, it makes it easier for others to review and edit.) There are multiple ways this can be done, I prefer harvref, the reftag short citation method works just as well. The point is that one is not having to read around and through the citations to understand the body. Again, it doesn't have to be done, but I will say that in my very limited experience at FA everything I have reviewed has done this. As an example, here's a recent one I looked at Battle of Poitiers and of course you can pick anything from my page to see how I usually do it, if that's helpful. SusunW (talk) 16:44, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

A source check would be superhelpful! I take your point about other referencing systems being less cluttered but I also see the advantages to the current system for example in terms of citing things that aren't books. Also I really enjoy the one click archiving via the "Analyze a page" bot which I think only works with the present system, I could be wrong about though. Mujinga (talk) 10:55, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

It should not surprise you that I have no idea what that is. I manually check every single link I use to make sure it is archived or that there is a link and a doi or other identifier. People always assume that others can access the links they can access, but that in my experience just isn't true. As for whether to use short cites or not your call. I actually analyzed the 18 current FAN and 13 of them use short cites in various forms, while 5 use a citation scheme similar to what you are using. SusunW (talk) 23:29, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I do remember telling you about this trick once actually, but I'm not surprised you don't remember because I don't think it works on your referencing style and also I told you about it in a different way. Basically, if you have a page using the reference style like this one (ie "my style" hehe), then you can go to "View history" then "Fix dead links" which takes you to the "Analyze a page" bot and if you tick "Add archives to all non-dead references (Optional)" before running it, then it adds archives on all citations it possibly can. I use it on pages I work on but the reason I mention it again is that it's also handy if you go to a page with wrecked or dead references. Sometimes simply running the bot can retrieve references and get them accessible again - might be worth a punt one day! Mujinga (talk) 19:55, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I'll probably need your help, but I'll try it. I have often run across total pages where most, if not all of the links, are dead while working my way through our articles on nationality laws. Don't b4e surprised when I appear on your page needing technical help . SusunW (talk) 20:04, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Briefly: I agree with the need to situate Morris in her place and time, the ferment of the 1970s and what was going on in Britain and around the decolonising world. I've added mentions of and links to e.g. the Windrush generation and the Race Relations Act 1965. There may be some other obvious situational links that I've missed, so I'll keep thinking. Carbon Caryatid (talk) 19:19, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Carbon Caryatid! I've replied on the talk page about the schools issue. Mujinga (talk) 10:52, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

@Mujinga and Carbon Caryatid: Y'all are doing a great job! Just read the talk page, yes, I was surprised about not finding anything about Lavender Hill School too. I'll give you all the help I can. I have been dying to look at it (and family is still here until Sunday, but they are off getting covid tests, so I am taking advantage of that .) On the sourcing issue, as I've said, I'll do the spot checks, i.e. make sure each source supports the text. Someone else will look at formatting of them. Look at the bottom of this one and you will see the kinds of things they will be looking at. (I look up ISSN and OCLC-specific article numbers in worldcat and format ISBNs per this converter and always use 13, which may mean running the number twice 13 without dashes converts to 10 and then run 10 and it will convert to 13 with dashes.) Make sure names of sources are in title case, regardless of how they are shown on the source and also when all the final edits are made make sure the citations are in numerical order. For example right now after "She ain't no girl" the citation number 10 comes before 7 and should be flipped. (Both of those things were noted on one of my FA nominations.) Below I'll start the actual line by line review. SusunW (talk) 15:09, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for all the comments, I'm working my way through them. Regarding title case that's really interesting; can I check, should "Olive Morris: Google Doodle honours activist who campaigned to improve the lives of the black community" become "Olive Morris: Google Doodle Honours Activist who Campaigned to Improve the Lives of the Black Community" because that honestly looks quite strange to me!? Mujinga (talk) 18:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Pretty much. Lots of FA review is about grammar, uniformity, and style. Just found this which should be helpful and it shows "Olive Morris: Google Doodle Honours Activist Who Campaigned To Improve the Lives of the Black Community". (A warning, I am old, I trained in academic citations before there was internet. Everything was printed so every citation had a page number. In the reference the full page spread should appear (20-29) and in the citation, the specific page for books, journals, newspaper articles, everything that has a page number. No idea about e-books, but I will ask a master of FA and get back to you.) SusunW (talk) 18:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Brilliant, I'll go full steam ahead on title case then. Would def be interested to hear opinions on unnumbered ebooks (I'll prob have to buy the book!). I'm also coming from an academic sourcing angle so I find this all weirdly absorbing (and the more accessible the better). "In the reference ... and in the citation" - now that is quite a persuasive argument for sfn style! Hmmm I suppose I can do it with rp as well though. Mujinga (talk) 18:52, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Yep, you can do it different ways. I use sfn because I am not technically inclined, someone with patience taught me how to do it, and I don't have to learn some new coding thing . Use whatever format is easiest for you. I asked the question here. We'll see what he says. Can you access this version? SusunW (talk) 19:07, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Wow that was waaay much more title casing than I expected!! I'll prob have to do another sweep as well haha. Stopping here for now but will continue later/tomoro. Oh yes I can see the gbooks, nice. Also as a final comment I checked archive.org and the National Archives link which can be accessed direct has a surprisingly well-informed biographical background .. can we use it? Not sure how to assess that as a source, I suppose it's primary but it has a few extra details that could be thrown in. Mujinga (talk) 19:26, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, I'm glad I found that little tool. Makes it easier. Glad you can see the source (I tried it without the .mx but couldn't o.0). Yes, you can use the national archives link, for limited bits. Same rationale I wrote about the library below. An archive is not likely to publish something that would damage their reputation. Presumedly, whoever wrote the overview, frustratingly not credited, had access to materials in the archive to verify what is in the summary. SusunW (talk) 19:49, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Gog answered about ebooks, if that makes sense. Also GRuban answered about the photos. I often don't know answers (especially if it is about technical stuff) but I know people who know ;) SusunW (talk) 20:15, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Source Review part1

Early life

• Family didn't move when she was 9. According to ONDB and NYT her parents were already there. Only she and her brother who had been living with their grandmother moved then. 2 other siblings came later. (Maybe splitting hairs, but the impact of splitting up families, even temporarily, is an important part of immigration experience IMO.)
  • that's a good spot to start off with! will rephrase to make this bit correct Mujinga (talk) 17:32, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
• Link Tulse Hill School, on second thought after reading the talk page, link Dick Sheppard School and add this from the national archives. I would probably input a note explaining that that Tulse was the comprehensive boy's school and Dick Sheppard was the girl's school. I can't find a citation in our article on it, but this seems reliable, as does [7] I'd also explain that the some sources say she went to Tulse (ODNB, citation?) and others say Sheppard.(national archives link above and your BBC piece.
  • annoyingly archive.org is blocked by my provider so I can't use the archive and edit wikipedia at the same time, it's very stupid that. so i'll come back on that. i have already left a hidden comment in the text about the confusion Mujinga (talk) 17:53, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

For a FA source contradiction needs to be spelled out in a note, I was told. (Don't you just love the restrictions we face to edit. It's a wonder that we even manage.)

oh that's good to know, i'll come back on that then Mujinga (talk) 18:15, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

note added Mujinga (talk) 19:21, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

And it is a lovely note, despite my nit-picky cite everything note, which you also fixed! ;) SusunW (talk) 21:27, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

• She left school "without any qualifications" (ONDB) "She left home aged 14-5, was temporarily in foster care and lived with friends. She attended Dick Shepherd Secondary School, and continued her education taking O and A levels at evening classes, and taking a course at the London College of Printing."[8] and "She left [school] at sixteen with no qualifications, but undeterred, she went on to college to study 'O' and 'A' levels, while at the same time holding down a full-time job".(Bryan/Dadzie/Scafe, 2018, p151) Reilly says "…she emigrated from Jamaica to the UK at 9 years old, and lived in Lavender Hill with her father, and five siblings, leaving school at an early age", makes me wonder what happened to her mother, but it could be a rabbit hole. (The getting her O & A levels is crucial — It goes to show her tenacity.)
  • Yes it shows tenacity and I'll add something; to be honest I was avoiding this because the sources are all over the place here and it seems unlikely to me she would take O and A levels at the same time, since O levels preceded A levels, as in normally you would take O at 16 and A at 18. Also the next question will be what subjects were they in and I haven't come across that info anywhere. Mujinga (talk) 17:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I am sure you will not be surprised that I only have a vague understanding of what the levels even are (from the years we lived in Belize). Would be nice to link to something. I also thought it weird that none gave a time frame, but my take on it was not that they were done simultaneously. SusunW (talk) 17:59, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

we don't have much to go on here so this is speculation but if she went to uni in manchester for three years and was dead by 27, she might well have crammed them in at the same time I suppose, in order to meet whatever the uni requirements were - i'm actually quite interested in this but i doubt we could get to the bottom of it! Mujinga (talk) 18:14, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Me too! (In the US, she'd just take a GED exam and be done with it.) Kind of like that lived with their father bit — What happened to her mom? I don't know that it is an answerable question at this point. SusunW (talk) 19:00, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Adult life and activism

• Perhaps it is also good background info to insert anti-colonial/anti-imperialism/Caribbean decolonization movement in the period? (Fisher, p 75, also Ford, 2015, p 208 talks about the Afro-Caribbean youth movement.) Weird that we have no article on decolonization of the Caribbean.
• I also thought it relevant in The Heart of the Race pages 148-149 that though the Women's Liberation Movement did influence Black feminists in Britain, they were more impacted by the women making demands in the Black nationalist and anti-colonial liberation movements in Angola, Eritrea, Guinea-Bissau, Mozambique, and Zimbabwe to share in the empowerment that would result from their struggles. More on 149-150, white women wanted access to abortion and to be paid for doing housework, whereas Black women's issues were about being paid sufficient wages to survive and having child care facilities so that they could work.
  • I'll reflect on these two! Maybe @Carbon Caryatid: has thoughts here also Mujinga (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
    • added the comments on the differences to white feminism alongside observations from the phd Mujinga (talk) 16:05, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

I think that looks good. I'm going to make a stab at expanding this section which I hope will tie in to the edits you've made. I will include a bit about her personal style, because I think it is important to get a sense of the multi-facetted person she was. Please feel free to rewrite it to your voice or reject anything you think doesn't work. SusunW (talk) 18:33, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Mistreatment

• "15 November 1969" cite page for Ford, i.e. 11
  • since it's a journal article I didn't think page numbers are required, do you think they are? i never add them ... uh oh! Mujinga (talk) 17:49, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

As I said above, I do, especially if you are quoting something. SusunW (talk) 23:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

• ok done! Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• add a short description for sus law, i.e. a stop and search statute, or something like that and insert page 11 for Ford
  • added sus law definition Mujinga (talk) 17:55, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
    • added 11 Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Aymo Martin Tajo, source says name is Ayo, insert page 12 for Ford
  • another great spot on the typo, i hope i didn't introduce that one! Mujinga (talk) 17:55, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
    • added 12 Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• "Morris's own account", insert pages 12-13 for Ford
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• "I’ve done nothing" insert page 12 for Ford (2016) and page 217 for Ford (2015)
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• "Ain’t no girl" insert page 13 for Ford (2016) and page 217 for Ford (2015)
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "Black cunt!" insert page 13 for Ford
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Ford 2015 makes the point that it wasn't all about her being black or just a woman, but about her androgyny and sexuality, "they assumed she was a lesbian" p 218
• "beat her so badly" insert page 13 for Ford
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:59, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• At "She was fined…" I read this to mean she was sentenced to 3 months, but didn't have to serve unless she reoffended during a three-year probationary period, which was later reduced to one year. If that is correct, then would not the "sentence was later reduced" be "suspension was later reduced"?
  • I think your interpretation is correct, it was a suspended sentence, but the "sentence was later reduced" is also correct because of the term. Always confusing this Mujinga (talk) 17:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

English is such a peculiar language. Oy vey. I am just afraid that if someone is unfamiliar with the legal practice they will think it's an error because how can 3 months be reduced to 1 year. Maybe, "She was fined £10 and given three months in prison for assaulting a police officer; the three year suspended sentence was later reduced to one year."? SusunW (talk) 19:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

What a pleasure it is working with you on this. I was also wondering how to rephrase and I've changed "sentence" to "term" which I think resolves the ambiguity: "She was fined £10 and given a three year suspended sentence of three months in prison for assaulting a police officer; the term was later reduced to one year" - what do you think? Mujinga (talk) 20:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

And here I was thinking of the pleasure of working with you. Collaboration is truly a wonderful thing. Yes, your rewording with term works very well. SusunW (talk) 20:50, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

• After "later reduced to one year" insert in the citation |id={{Gale|CS84898449}} so people can link to it.
  • done Mujinga (talk) 19:00, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• Don't see Marxist-Leninist in either of the two cited sources, but it is in Osborne. Add a citation and fix your cite, as you show Angelina Osbourne, but source has no "u".

I'll be back when I can, they are back. SusunW (talk) 16:15, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

• another great typo spot Mujinga (talk) 18:05, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
• i dont think the typo was me, but the M-L error was def. me, thanks for pointing that out! Mujinga (talk) 21:02, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Source Review part2

British Black Panther

• Maybe use this photo at the start of the section?
  • done Mujinga (talk) 16:15, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
• "After Marxist-Leninist", insert page 20 and add citation link to Angelo [9]
  • sorry not sure about this one, I'm getting confused by having different numbers on my pdf version as well Mujinga (talk) 19:59, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

There's a technical glitch, that I have zero clue how to fix or even who to ask. You should be able to add to the citation string the Accession Number "|id=EBSCOhost RN245814456" which should then link to the article, but I cannot make it work? and have zero clue who to ask. SusunW (talk) 21:13, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

• i've fixed the ref following Template:EBSCOhost i think, but i don't see RN245814456 listed anywhere when i find the article at EBSCO so can you confirm that's working for you? we'll get there in the end! Mujinga (talk) 18:49, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• still cant find RN245814456, i do have AN=36334336 in the listing Mujinga (talk) 19:11, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Well, I think that explains that, they must have been in the process of changing it from one host to another. The Accession number and source library "Duke University" have been changed. I still cannot access it without going directly to the WP library, BUT, if you put that new AN=36334336 in the EBSCO template in the ref, it works. I put it in and did page preview and then was able to access it, but I didn't save it as I didn't want to stomp on your fingers if you were editing. SusunW (talk) 19:38, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• weird, AN36334336 just takes me to a login page but if it works for you great! we can say this is  Done and that's pretty much me for today Mujinga (talk) 20:32, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• After "to return home" insert page 8 for Obi and for Liz Obi’s chapter-url add this and oclc=608352127 for book identifier in the citation.
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• "In the early 1970s…trumped up charges" needs a citation. Thomas' Guardian piece doesn’t say that there were many or that they were nonsense, but Bunce & Field (2015) do on page 171
  • done (yesterday) Mujinga (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• Were it me, I would replace "and another person" with his actual name, Abdul Macintosh.
  • Yes that is a tricky one, I think I'd prefer the awkwardness of "and another person" though since it seems charges were dropped and Macintosh was not convicted (EDIT and doesnt seem otherwise notable)Mujinga (talk) 18:18, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I concur if he is not otherwise notable, i.e. most likely BLP, which could be problematic. SusunW (talk) 19:47, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

• Page cite after "Mau Mau Uprising" should be 172-173
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
• Page cite after "not guilty on that charge" should be 173
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:30, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
• For the sentence that starts "Upon the demise" I’d leave out the ODNB cite, it doesn’t say with who or when. Osborne says she was a co-founder. Also doesn’t mention with who but says happened in 1974. Thomas' Guardian piece says with Obi and Bryan in 1973. Suzanne Scafe says it was founded in 1973, (page 58) so I would probably cite with Thomas and Scafe.
  • yup something got garbled there! added in a bit extra about the group with the help of the scafe citation Mujinga (talk) 21:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Squatting in Brixton

• For the bit that starts "The squat then became" and ends "women that included Morris", in my FA noms I was told never to cite more than 2 sources unless they were absolutely needed. If they are necessary, you can use this or this to WP:CITEBUNDLE. I would probably move ODNB and Thomas' Guardian piece to the end of BBWG and leave the other two after Morris. (I also note that for The Heart of the Race you used the e-book, the numbered version's ISBN is 978-1-78663-586-0 and then the cite would be on page 152).
  • I'm not sure what I should do here, because I am indeed using the ebook which is un-numbered .. I would of course normally add page numbers for book cites, but the problem is here I wouldn't be able to check them myself Mujinga (talk) 17:51, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
    • resolved by your find of the googlebook version! Mujinga (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
    • also fixed the bundling issue yesterday Mujinga (talk) 20:02, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "more diverse curriculum" insert page 181 for Delap
  • done Mujinga (talk) 18:53, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• After Squatters Handbook change the pages to 75-76
  • done Mujinga (talk) 20:02, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "165-167 Railton Road" bundle the citations as per above instructions. (britsandpcs.com is dead for me. Could just be a Mexico thing. If you can access it, leave it alone, if it is a dead link, add |url-status=dead to the citation.
  • yup also dead for me, will add now Mujinga (talk) 19:24, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
  • ah yes more unbundling needed here too. STILL TO DO. Mujinga (talk) 20:02, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
    • rephrased Mujinga (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Source Review part3

Manchester

• The first citations for the section are a group of 5. I would break that up, i.e. after "1975 and 1978", insert ONDB and The Heart of the Race page 154 (because one says started in 1975 and the other finished in 1978); and after "Elouise Edwards" (who should be redlinked because I find tons of information to indicate she is notable) insert Johnson and Abasindi Co-operative. (I would also insert that the Abasindi Co-operative piece was published by the Manchester Central Library because even though it is primary and possibly uncurated, the library is unlikely to publish something that would damage its reputation and is likely to be reliable.)
  • this all makes sense - it's making me chuckle i ended up with five refs that does look a bit wack, i think i just kept on adding tidbits but i'm sure i can pare it down again. added the library as publisher and will sort the rest now Mujinga (talk) 21:42, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
  • On Elouise Edwards I agree and done; I think I unlinked them both during the GAR and then now some star made the page for Kath Locke Mujinga (talk) 20:08, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Working on Edwards. SusunW (talk) 20:48, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

And while working on Edwards I found this which is probably a higher-quality source than the Abasindi Co-operative piece. You may want to check it and swap the sourcing out. SusunW (talk) 14:26, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

SusunW Wow another source, lovely I'll take a look! Elouise Edwards is coming along well, seems like she was a photographer as well. Think that's all from me today. Mujinga (talk) 22:00, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure if she took those or was just the donor, because she donated the stuff she collected until 2012 in the Roots Project to the Ahmed Iqbal Ullah Education Trust. But it still gives me another source and a reminder to put that in legacy. Thank you! SusunW (talk) 22:12, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

• Unless I am misunderstanding the source, it wasn't "plans to bring in tuition fees", but to increase fees for overseas students.
  • source says "one of her key fights was against the university’s efforts to raise tuition fees for overseas students" so I'll change "bring in" to "increase" Mujinga (talk) 20:06, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "any public funding" add additional citation for the Abasindi Co-operative piece, as it is the only place I see that says Abasindi was the successor to the Black Women's Co-op.
  • good point, done Mujinga (talk) 20:13, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "a Black bookshop" insert page 153 for The Heart of the Race
  • done Mujinga (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "Northern Ireland" insert page 153 for The Heart of the Race
  • done Mujinga (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• I note that Osborne says "She also travelled to Morocco, Algeria, Spain, France, and Hong Kong". Not clear if that was after China or not and I think perhaps Morocco/Algeria refers to the earlier trip with Obi, but perhaps you can add France, Hong Kong, and Spain and a citation to Osborne in addition to Italy and Northern Ireland?
  • i'm not sure on adding more country visits because the chronology is a bit vague and they mught just have been holidays Mujinga (talk) 20:10, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Return to Brixton

• After "had helped to found" insert The Heart of the Race pages ii, 151. I'd remove the cite to Thomas' Guardian piece as don't see anything about Bryan being involved in OWADD there.
• After "Bryan remembered Morris" you might add something like and Obi credited Morris for teaching her to be fearless.(Chidgey) I would move this sentence up to the section on the Panthers and have it follow "the experience of women in the Black Panther Party" so that it doesn't break the discussion of the conference at the Abeng Centre.
• After "other forms of oppression" pages should be 78-79
  • done Mujinga (talk) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "publish after her death" page cite for Fisher should be 79
  • done Mujinga (talk) 19:04, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Death

• After "started to feel ill" insert a citation to Tsang.
  • it's also in the Longley Mujinga (talk) 20:34, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
• After "September 1978" insert Longley p 130 (Weirdly for the Longley piece, when I accessed it a few weeks ago, it was open access, but now requires a subscription for me? If it is locked for you as well since it isn't available from the WPLibrary, you should probably mark it as {{subscription needed}}.)
  • yes me too, weird, added |url-access=subscription Mujinga (talk) 20:22, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I had the resource exchange e-mail it to me (forgot to save it, which is unusual for me to forget), so if you need it, just e-mail me and I'll forward it. SusunW (talk) 20:32, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I have it thanks! And if you can't access anything I've used please let me know but I think you've got it covered Mujinga (talk) 21:38, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Recognition and legacy

• Unlink Linton Kwesi Johnson here, he's linked earlier
  • done Mujinga (talk) 20:35, 28 February 2022 (UTC)
• After "Morris at Brixton Library" insert cite from Chidgey, so that your only citation is not Obi reporting on her own actions.
  • i've rejigged that bit, thanks Mujinga (talk) 18:08, 3 March 2022 (UTC)
• After "Tanisha C. Ford and Obi" insert page 8 for Ford and consider bundling the citations.
  • done Mujinga (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2022 (UTC)
• For Burgam ref, include page range of 1-19 for the citation and after "published in 2010” insert page 11. (I would also probably remove the wordpress blog, simply because it will be dinged as a non-high-quality and uncurated source. (I did use a page from Obi in the publication that was hosted on wordpress, but not the site itself. For FA typically a blog won't work, unless you can verify that the host is generally reliable, like the library I analyzed above.) You could add Chidgey or Ruiz as an additional source, as both confirm the book publication.
  • i still need the blog as self-pub evidence but you're right it will prob get challenged, that's ok. i've decided i will do the journal article page numbers so i'll add them now! Mujinga (talk) 18:13, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Source Review part4

Random stuff

• The only things I see missing are a personal section and to be honest, (not sure where it should go, but I think it is important) — maybe as a 2nd paragraph in the Adult life and activism section? and a historical overview of her importance in legacy, so I'll look at those separately:

• Ford p 208, Violence at Desmond's Hip City says "Olive and her peers used soul music and fashion to unhinge deeply rooted, West Indian notions of feminine and masculine propriety and respectability while also attempting to destabilize racist systems of de facto segregation in the United Kingdom." Also that she was deliberately androgynous and gender non-conforming. Longley p 127 says her partner Mike McColgan, who she was with for around ten years, was white (IMO, shows the embodiment of the "personal is political", which was a common saying at the time meaning you impact politics through your personal choices) and according to McColgan, she was "a woman who during this time [during their relationship] had intimate relationships with other men and women." Ford p 215 says Morris challenged the boundaries of respectable womanhood wearing jeans and t-shirts, instead of dresses. She smoked and either went bare foot or wore comfortable shoes. She wore her hair in a short-cropped Afro, adopting "a queer revolutionary soul sister look". (somewhere I read she was short, why does 5'2" stick in my head?, but I don't know where I read it. Grrrr) Osborne says she was "barely five feet two inches, took on racist police officers, without thinking about her own safety, because she couldn't stand by and allow the injustice." But anyway, you get the idea.

• I've been pondering this and I know you already mentioned about gender fluidity, I just feel a bit uncomfortable adding stuff about her private life myself although I don't think I'd mind if other people did. I'll think about it a bit more and look at the sources. Maybe the PhD mentioned below will give me some inspiration. Mujinga (talk) 20:33, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

She's dead, so it's not the same privacy barrier that would exist for a BLP. More than one source confirms the fluidity, and one of those is her former long-term partner, so I don't think it was a secret nor something she would not have acknowledged. Advise and I am happy to work it in if you want. SusunW (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

I've taken a WP:BOLD approach. See what you think. SusunW (talk) 18:38, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Looks good! I'll give the article a break for a few days now I think and then give it another read when my eyes are fresh again Mujinga (talk) 10:40, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the additions! I think it's great to contextualize where Morris was coming from. This bit I find confusing but also the glamorous femme image of actresses and models, as well as the prevailing images of respectable woman who were adorned by dresses, pearls, pumps, and coiffed hair because Ford appears to be comparing Morris to fashion styles in the US and I'm not sure if that's worth drawing out or ditching Mujinga (talk) 21:55, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I am not a fashion expert, by any stretch of anyone's imagination. But, she is comparing international trends, and how they played out in Britain, i.e. "Caribbean migrants were 'well dressed as a way of showing respect for ourselves and to others' and this was taught or passed down to their children and subsequent family members living in the UK. It was normal to be dressed up..."[10], "Student protests and The Civil Rights Movement both in the UK and America had a massive influence on fashion"[11], and "Afro-Caribbean and Afro-American influences have been critical in shaping British youth culture…"[12] SusunW (talk) 22:42, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

Cool I rejigged it a bit to mention the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and I think I'll add that gal-dem reference as well to show it was a cross-Atlantic fashion style Mujinga (talk) 12:09, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Looks good. It's why collaboration works, sort of like a dialogue to ensure the article conveys the intent and is broadly understood. (The description of how they normally dressed in the Caribbean reminded me so much of the first time I went there. It was about 36C and local people were walking around in pumps and shiny leather shoes, starched dresses or 3-piece suits with starched shirts, hose, and socks. I was in a sundress and it made me hot and itchy just to look at them. That formality didn't really start changing until the 1990s.) SusunW (talk) 13:50, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I had to look up what pumps are! Mujinga (talk) 19:40, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I truly laughed out loud. Apparently known as court shoe on your side of the pond. SusunW (talk) 19:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

• Longley p 131 says examining her life "is not one of individual Black exceptionalism, but of collective existence and shared legitimacy" and representative of the shared experiences of people who have historically been invisible and erased. Ford says in Finding Olive Morris in the Archive p 5 that Olive's story "elucidated the forms of sexualized terror black women have suffered at the hands of law enforcement and challenged the black masculinist framing of police brutality" (not sure if I'd use the quotes, but your call, basically it is placing her in the context of her time, i.e. she symbolizes the racism, sexism, and experiences of the 1960s and 1970) and on p 8 that her story epitomizes the history of the Black experience and their communities in her era. Again, just snippets, but in the legacy, you need to make it clear why historians have thought she was important.

Just noted that Fisher says Faye Harrison noted that Morris' involvement in the squatter movement shines a light on the under-explored politics of housing and its impacts on the black community.(Fisher, p 75)

I found a PhD thesis by this guy, while looking for info on what happened to her mom. There's a whole section on Olive. Starts on page 97 which lists a bunch of posthumous recognitions; talks about her being in foster care (back to the question of why? Did her mother die? apparently not-she erected a plaque in Olive's honor in 1986 and died in 2002); her importance in representing POC, single people, and the homeless in the squatting movement; the separation between black and white feminist groups; she earned a bachelor's degree; etc. SusunW (talk) 17:58, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Oooh that's good digging to find the PhD! I'll be superinterested to look at that since it intersects with my broader interest in squatting. First though I'd better crack on with the stuff on the list from yesterday. Mujinga (talk) 19:20, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

• Make sure there is only one link (and it is in the first occurrence) for each wikilink.
  • done using duplinks plugin Mujinga (talk) 20:16, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

If you say so, I believe you are telling me there is some automated function? You know I have no clue what that is ;) SusunW (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

yes! it's User:Evad37/duplinks-alt, quite handy Mujinga (talk) 17:16, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

• Make sure that you either do or don't use Oxford commas throughout.
  • Will try to check this on final read through Mujinga (talk) 20:36, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• Don't miss the ref review comments above, last comment before I started the source review.
  • Checking again now Mujinga (talk) 20:36, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
  • That's a handy tip for the ISBNs!! Title casing is all done I hope, just the citation number flipping left Mujinga (talk) 20:43, 1 March 2022 (UTC)
• I woke up in the middle of the night and kept hearing photographs must be free to use in their home country and the United States. We need to research that because WP is hosted in the US, so they have to be tagged with both a UK and US copyright status. I'll see what I can do.
  • Photos aren't really my strong point so I'll need to look into this Mujinga (talk) 20:36, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I am fairly good with US rules, but outside of the US, not, which is why I rely on others. GRuban is my go-to guy for all things Russian and photos. I must say we have secured quite a few from e-mails, so perhaps you just ask the archives as he says and then wave a hand at him if you get stuck. SusunW (talk) 05:21, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

Cool I've emailed the Lambeth Archives, the Remembering Olive Collective and the National Archives, let's see what they say Mujinga (talk) 16:51, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

Fingers crossed! SusunW (talk) 18:38, 4 March 2022 (UTC)

• All photographs need an "alt" description for the visually impaired. I'll do the lede one as an example and then you can do the rest. Insert |alt=describe it.
• Once the whole thing is rewritten, do a final read-through for grammar, making sure that the refs are all in order (uniformity is a huge deal at FA), and that the lead is a fairly complete summary of the key facts.

Wow thanks for such a thorough check, I'll get on to answering the queries probably later today or tomorrow! Mujinga (talk) 10:02, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I so enjoyed reading this article. It honestly epitomizes how un- and under-represented people's stories are lost (and in rare cases found). You have done a really good job of making this into an informative and detailed article. SusunW (talk) 15:25, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Looking over this we seem to be nearing the end of the process, with the photo question waiting on replies from the archives. If I can ask one last question, I notice on the references some media eg Brixton Bugle have "Staff writer" listed as author and other sites eg BBC when there's no byline and Brixton Blog have no author, so should I make them all "Staff writer"? Mujinga (talk) 10:54, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

I agree that we're near the end. You've done a lovely job with the article and should be very proud of your work. I really hope the archives answer. Personally, when no author is given I use |author=, but again there are lots of ways to do it. If you are going to list staff writer, they should all list that; if you go with nothing, they should all list nothing. SusunW (talk) 13:05, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

That's an elegant solution! Mujinga (talk) 12:51, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

Pix

A helpful flowchart

Hmmmm the replies on photos are not favourable. In answer to my question if they had access to a copyright free image, Lambeth Archives said: "The ownership/copyright status of the Olive Morris collection at Lambeth Archives is complex. Therefore, sadly, Lambeth Archives isn't in a position, to assist with this request." That's a shame but to be expected, but I was surprised by the answer from National Archives since they said the two photos on the article from them (newsletter and march) are copyright of the Metropolitan Police and they don't know why they were uploaded to Flickr. That's weird because it looks like the National Archives uploaded them themselves. So they don't have a copyright-free image and the images we do have on commons are probably a copyright violation (and they're part of a bigger batch) ... doomy music plays .... Mujinga (talk) 22:10, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

good that we checked, but those are weird answers. How can an archive not know the provenance of their collection? How in the world could Metropolitan Police hold the copyright on a publication of the Black Panthers — that doesn't even seem logical? Maybe we ask them? Dammit, Michael McColgan has died, just a month ago. Since he donated some of Olive's papers, I thought we might contact him. *sigh* SusunW (talk) 14:54, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Oh gosh RiP Mike McColgan, wow he had an interesting life and from that obituary he def deserves his own wikiarticle, he was involved in lots of movements for social justice. Salute!

I had the same thought. SusunW (talk) 16:56, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

On fotos, I've asked at commons for help ... so far so confusing, but according to the handy flowchart if the pix were crown copyright and were published then they are free to use from 2020 ... not sure if the National Archives displaying them on their website counts as publication ... I also note they have them categorised under crime FFS!? Mujinga (talk) 16:26, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The National Archives displaying them on their website would in my mind mean that they were published, but the clock would start running from the date they first posted them, but the requirement is on 1st publication. Was that the first time they appeared? I think we need to verify if indeed they were taken by the police and if that then denotes crown copyright. I note in your linked discussion LPfi had the same thought as me about how the police could own the Black Panther's paper copyright. If indeed the police took the photo under a crown copyright, and if we can find an image published in a newspaper in 1970 or 1971, looks to me as if we could use them? I previously looked in newspapers.com and newspaperarchive.com for photos and found nada, but I wonder if the britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk has anything? Of course you could also write ROC.2 at rememberolivemorris@gmail.com. They might be willing to help because our goals of providing educational and historical record of her are similar? SusunW (talk) 16:56, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty baffled to be honest, so I think I'll wait to see if the wikicommons discussion goes anywhere. I have already emailed ROC about pix, no answer so far ...

Totally get that. It was my first FA that got me into researching photos. The photo review was brutal, but it taught me a lot and gave me ideas of who to ask for help. SusunW (talk) 18:31, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

The wikicommons view appears to be to trust the National Archives uploader. I suppose this is something that can be addressed at FAC. I've asked a few people I know IRL to read the article to see what they think. Mujinga (talk) 15:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

CLindberg was one of those folks who helped me in my first FA about photos. Very knowledgeable. At least you can refer to the link and discussion if it becomes a problem and show that you did due diligence to clarify the license. I'm always in favor of having trusted eyes on an article as they give perspective I might have missed. Drive-bys are a crap-shoot. Sometimes helpful, oftentimes not. SusunW (talk) 18:55, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

FYI either of you can always go to me for image copyright advice. "No known copyright restrictions" is already a questionable status because it's a black box on what basis it's determined whether copyright restrictions exist. (Furthermore, there's also US copyright to consider in the case of non-US works.) I would say that the papers are almost certainly copyrighted unless released by their copyright holder, because of the lack of publication. Unless we could show crown copyright applies to the demonstration photo, I wouldn't accept it at FAC image review. (t · c) buidhe 22:52, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Buidhe that's a kind offer! I'm pretty much gearing up to closing the peer review and moving to FAC for this article. On these two photos, should I just remove them - is that the best thing to do at this stage? I don't think we will be able to definitively prove very much for them. Mujinga (talk) 22:45, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I would just remove them. (t · c) buidhe 23:10, 15 March 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, it seems like the best solution. I've been looking around and didn't find anything to replace them with, but there are still three images on the article. Mujinga (talk) 08:08, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

I'm closing up the peer review now, I'm very grateful for so many comments. I won't ping now because I'll be asking y'all for comments at FAC soon :) Mujinga (talk) 08:10, 16 March 2022 (UTC)