Wikipedia:Peer review/Paul Kelly (musician)/archive2

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Paul Kelly (musician)[edit]

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I've listed this article for peer review because…

The article failed Featured Article in June 2010. Since that time edits have improved its structure according to the FAR, and subsequent, comments. It was checked by a Copy Editor in June 2011. I have completed further editing and fixed references – most are now archived to reduce link rot. Together with Dan arndt, we intend to apply for FA after this review.

Thanks, shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

{{doing}} Ruhrfisch ><>°° 13:24, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Efe (talk · contribs) comments
  • He later recalled beware of missing punctuation marks
  • "It was an open-tuning and had four lines about catching trains. I have got a recording of it somewhere. It was called "Catching a Train". I wrote a lot of songs about trains early on, trains and fires, and then I moved on to water".
    • I've decided to go with your advice here and use 'Catching a Train' inside the quote.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Placement of quotation marks after or before another punctuation marks (e.g. period, comma, etc.) Please see Wikipedia:MOS#Punctuation_inside_or_outside.
    • It may be more complicated by Australian English treating quotations and punctuation marks differently from American English. In this instance the full stop would be included if it is known to exist in the original work after "water", it is not included if the original sentence continued after "water".–shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many audio samples do not meet WP:NFCC#8.
    • I thought the Contextual significance was ably demonstrated by the supplied captions. Can you explain how they don't meet this criterion?
      1. "Billy Baxter" was Paul Kelly's first charting single.
      2. "To Her Door" is Paul Kelly's highest charting single to date.
      3. "How to Make Gravy" was nominated for an APRA Award for 'Song of the Year'.
      4. "Foggy Highway" has been recorded by Kelly, then by Geyer and then by PK & the Stormwater Boys. It is indicative of his strength as a songwriter.
  • There are sections that have so many information. Try trimming them down according to significance. Also, avoid staccato-like paragraph. Merge those related.
    • This is difficult without further examples. I've tried trimming where I could, however I may be too close to the material to do as you ask: that's one of the reasons I put it up for PR.–shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. --Efe (talk) 13:25, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your effort.–shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 21:30, 15 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ruhrfisch comments: Thanks for your work on this interesting article. Sorry to have taken so long in making my comments, here are some suggestions for improvement.

  • A model article is useful for ideas and examples to follow - there are many FAs which are biographies of musicians and seem like they owuld be good models. See Wikipedia:Featured_articles#Music_biographies.
    • I've looked at about 20 of these previously, both before the first FA and before this second PR. I've tended to concentrate on solo musicians, particularly Australian ones. Most recently I've looked at Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Bernard Fanning and Percy Grainger.
  • A model article might be helpful for the MOS issues raised above - keeping a song title in double quoutes sounds reasonable to me. I am not always the best judge of WP:LQ but there will be people looking at that at FAC.
    • Dylan's article maintains "Song Titles", whereas Lennon's goes for 'Song Titles' inside quotes. I couldn't find a relevant sample in Fanning or Grainger.
    • I've gone with Efe's advice and use song title as 'Catching a Train' inside a quote.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would treat the unsuccessful FAC as a useful review and make sure that every issue raised in it has been addressed too.
    • I certainly did. I was sure I got all those issues and would like to hear of any you believe I may have missed.
  • The lead image has a lot of blue sky - I would crop it so that you can see more of Kelly and his face and less sky.
    • I tried to keep the image as close to original as possible. I have already removed a logo. I will crop it a little further to focus on the main image.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 22:50, 21 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would give a cite / ref for the Rolling Stone quote in the lead, especially since the second quote (by Kelly) is referenced.
  • It seems odd that he is so influential, but neither the Dots nor the Coloured Girls/Messengers have their own articles. I would at least make redirects for the band names to the sections on them in this article.
    • Outside of their work for PK, I don't think the Dots or Coloured Girls/Messengers had any notable activity. Unlike Professor Ratbaggy and Stardust Five, which each issued a self-titled album with contribution spread around each ensemble more than a regular PK&tD or PK&tCG/PK&tM release. A separate article for each would probably duplicate much of this article (not just the section that deals with the specific backing band). If sufficient interested editors want separate articles then this could be achieved but would take some time and effort to sort out what would be left for the main article.
    • As for existing Re-directs: each of the variants I could think of has a re-direct to the main PK article but not to the specific section. Or do you mean the second sentence of the Lead? Should wikilinks to the sections lower in this article be placed there?
  • It seems pretty clear that his family were Catholics and I see he is in the category for Autralian Roman Catholics - I would include this in the article (in the Early life section most likely). It would help explain his sisiter becoming a nun, the line about ringing the bells, the Christian Brothers, etc.
    • I'll have to find the exact page(s) in his memoir but I recall that Kelly explained that he hasn't been a Catholic for about forty years or from the age of 16. I could add a sentence like Kelly was raised as a Roman Catholic but has described himself as no longer belonging to that faith. once I get that ref.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 03:41, 22 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am uncomfortable with these two sentences According to legend, he was born outside North Adelaide's Calvary Hospital in a taxi. This event appears in his lyrics for the Comedy (1991) album track, "It's All Downhill from Here":[4][5] If you look at the original article (ref 4) it says "Legend has it that Paul Kelly was born in a taxi outside North Adelaide’s Calvary Hospital."[1] It sounds to me more like a figure of speech in the magazine and I would say something to make this clearer - perhaps something like "According to Rip It Up" magazine, "legend has it" that Kelly's mother gave birth to him "in a taxi outside North Adelaide's Calvary Hospital".[4] (move the ref back for the direct quote)
  • Done.
  • As for the second sentence introducing the quotation itself, I would be very careful to avoid WP:OR - does the lyrics book have some sort of explanatory text from Kelly that says this? If it is just the fact that his lyric refers to his birth this way, but the interpretation is original I would make it more a statement of fact. So if it is just the lyric, I would say something like In the lyric for his Comedy (1991) album track, "It's All Downhill from Here", Kelly wrote:[5] If it is in the book, I would say that (Kelly confirms the legend in his 1993 book Lyrics and included it in the song "It's All Donwhill from Here" on his 1991 album Comedy:
  • Done.
  • Similar concerns with In his semi-autobiographical song, "Adelaide", from Post (1985), he recalls these events:[5] (though since the Lyrics book was just referenced, not as much attribution detail is needed here). The basic problem is that lyrics can be first person and fictional - Johnny Cash didn't really shoot a man in Reno, just to watch him die ;-)
  • You make a good point. Kelly describes writing this song in his memoir pp. 13-14. He told people (e.g. his living aunts) that it was made-up: "I'm writing fiction not autobiography". However his aunts, friends and journalists weren't convinced: "They were right to be wary, to sniff the answer with suspicion." In any case, I've gone with your suggestion.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 08:26, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The hardest criteria for most articles to meet at FAC is 1a, a professional level of English. The prose here is decent, but not great. I will try to point out some rough spots, but a light copyedit would help too.
  • Rough sentence - the film is mentioned way too late in the sentence, and the sentence is long and complex and would probably be better split in two. Paul Kelly and the Dots supplied "Rocking Institution" for the soundtrack and Kelly added to the score[35] of the 1982 film Starstruck, a Gillian Armstrong film which starred Jo Kennedy.[36]
  • Avoid needless repetition - early on there are the sentences Their son, Declan, was born in 1980.[30][31] He later worked in a record store, as a DJ, and as a radio presenter on 3RRR's Against the Arctic from 2006.[9][12] Then in the Personal life section this is almost all repeated Paul Kelly's first marriage (1980–1984) was to Hilary Brown, which produced a son, Declan Kelly. As of 2007, Declan presented a radio show on Triple R; he was a DJ around Melbourne and played the drums.[186] I would keep the first sentence about the birth of Declan in the "1974–1984: Early career and with the Dots" section, but leave the material for waht happens to Declan for the Personal life section.
  • I would also keep the focus on Paul Kelly - not sure that this needs to be in the article Fairfax later had a small part in Young Einstein (1986) and the lead role in two TV miniseries, The Harp in the South (1986) and Poor Man's Orange (1987).[37] How does it help the reader's understanding of him? Your call, but I think this may be what Efe is getting at in the too much infomration comment
  • Another general language issue is to avoid short (one or two sentence) paragraphs where possible as they interrupt the flow of the article. There are not al ot of these, but Kelly's national 'More Songs from the South' tour in December 2009 ... is one.
  • As for the fair use sound clips, the more there is in the article about a song that is used for a sound clip, the better. So if a song has attracted critical commentary and the clip caption can tie into that, it makes a much stronger fair use case than "this is his first hit". So if a critic (making this up) has talked about the jangling guitars or driving beat or plaintive vocals in a song, then using that part of the song as a clip and putting in the caption makes it a much better fair use. Fake exmaple caption: "Song X from Kelly's album Y, which critic Z called "one of the most haunting lyrics ever recorded south of the Equator".[ref]
  • I've had a go at these and hope that the expanded captions are better now.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:49, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • The photo from "One Night the Moon" is lovely, but needs to be more than just an illustration for the article (the reader already knows what he looks like). Again if critics have praised this scence, or if the costumes or something make this image special, say so. The criteria I always try to keep in mind is "How does this image enhance the reader's understanding in ways that text alone does not?"
  • I've had a go at expanding the caption with a quote from Screen Australia Online curator on the significance of the lullaby scene.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 12:49, 24 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another sentence I would recast Hadley (bass guitar, backing vocals), Haymes (keyboards, organ, backing vocals), Kelly (vocals, guitar), and Luscombe (drums) formed Professor Ratbaggy in 1999. I owuld keep the focus on Kelly, so perhaps "In 1999 Kelly formed the band Professor Ratbaggy with ..... Then the next sentence could say he contributed vocals and guitar to their debut album with songs written jointly by all the band members.
  • SOmetimes articles use free images of the places someone has been - so if there is a typical image of St Kilda or someplace else important in hisl ife or career, that could be used here.
  • Please make sure that the existing text includes no copyright violations, plagiarism, or close paraphrasing. For more information on this please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2009-04-13/Dispatches. (This is a general warning given in all peer reviews, in view of previous problems that have risen over copyvios.)

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 12:12, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The following clarification is transcluded from my talkpage:

I meant the bands are called "The Dots" and "The Coloured Girls" and "The Messengers" in the second sentence of the lead (and elsewhere in the article), so I searched for each of those names and found two red links and a dab that did not list the band in question. I would be fine with redirests to his article for the first two and listing him (linked) and the band in the dab.

I did not check for "Paul Kelly and the Dots" or "Paul Kelly and the Coloured Girls" or "Paul Kelly and the Messengers" so of course these redirects all exist. I think a redirect to his article is OK (does not need to be to a section).

As for the captions and fair use, sorry to be unclear. I really meant that the more the article discusses the fair use media, the better. This does not have to be in the captions, though if there can be some sort of tie in there, that is better (but WP:CAPTION also calls for concise captions).

Just so you know I lisetened to all of "To Her Door" online - quite a good song. Thanks, Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:07, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've supplied the requested Redirects and will work on the incorporating the recently added material in captions into the adjacent text.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 04:31, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I've had a go at the captions and moved material across to the main text as close to the sample/image as practicable.shaidar cuebiyar (talk) 07:32, 25 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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