Wikipedia:Peer review/St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao/archive2

St. Michael's Cathedral, Qingdao

Previous peer review

This peer review discussion has been closed.
This article failed a FAC on March 30. It went through a major transformation at that time. It has also had a few updates since then, but I want to make sure it will pass the next FAC, so I'm submitting it for another peer review.

Thanks, ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 20:05, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

doing Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 23:27, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 02:42, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: This is a very interesting article and it is certainly unusual to see a Neo-Romanesque cathedral in the midst of a Chinese city. I think this needs some more work before it would stand a good chance at FAC, so here are some suggestions for improvement.

• I read the FAC and agree with the comments there that the article seemed too short. I would have put it in terms of the FA criteria, the article does not seem to me to be comprehensive. I will try to point out places that need more details. I also think the lead needs to be expanded, there are places that need more references, and I question the reliability of some of the sources used as references now.
• The lead seems sparse to me - it should be an accessible and inviting overview of the whole article. As a summary nothing should be in the lead only, but 15 Zhejiang Road seems not be repeated elsewhere in the article.
• My rule of thumb is to include every header in the lead in some way but the Services and Ordinaries are not in the lead. Please see WP:LEAD
• I think the article could use a little more context at the beginning. Could a sentence or two be added on the foreign concessions in China in general, so the average reader understands better why the Germans were there in the first place? See WP:PCR
• I also think the location of Qingdao could be made clearer. The article has relatively few images - could File:China Shandong Qingdao.svg be added somewhere to make clearer the position of Qingdao in China and on the coast?
• I do not think giving the area in acres helps comprehension - square kilometers and square miles are enough With an area of 552 square kilometres (136,000 acres; 213 sq mi), it ...
• Problem sentence: Upon gaining control of the area, the impoverished fishing village of "Tsingtao" (Qingdao) was laid out with wide streets, solid housing areas, government buildings, electrification throughout, a sewer system and a safe drinking water supply, a rarity in large parts of Asia at that time and later. They did not lay out an impoverished fishing village, try to avoid passive voice (who did the laying out?), and the sentence is long and complex and could probably be split. Perhaps something like this would work better: Upon gaining control of the area, the impoverished fishing village of "Tsingtao" (Qingdao) became the site of new planned community. The Germans laid out wide streets, solid housing areas, government buildings, electrification throughout, a sewer system and a safe drinking water supply, which was a rarity in large parts of Asia at that time and later.
• The section "German presence in Qingdao" has no wikilinks - could some be added? The next section links to Holland, when I believe it should link to the Netherlands (the former is a province in the latter). In the the "Design and construction" section surely Neogothic is meant (not Gothic)?
• "Design and construction" section could use some more details, if known. When did SVD arrive in Qingdao? When was the original plan for the church commissioned? Was it commissioned as a cathedral? When was the diocese established?
• Needs a ref: Before the cathedral was started, a church was built on that same parcel of land, in 1902. It still stands today, but is now used as a school.[note 2] It would also help to give some idea of the size of the parcel of land purchased.
• More problems The conquest of Qingdao by the Japanese in 1914 put an end to the cathedral plans. When its construction was again taken up, the original Gothic plan was abandoned because it no longer seemed appropriate for the modern townscape of Qingdao... I think the article should say when the Japanese left Qingdao. Might also help to mention that this was part of WWI. Also is it known when construction was "taken up again" (year)?
• Needs a ref: which supports the conclusion that the design was altered after construction began. Construction was finished in 1934.
• Needs a ref: It is possible that the first Catholic church in Qingdao, built in 1902 on the same site was called St. Emil's Church. It is also possible that "Emil" is a mistranslation of "Michael," as both names can have two out of three Chinese characters in common ("mi" and "el").
• "1942-1976:Occupation, liberation, and defacement" section - I would explicitly say what year / motnh / day (if known) the Japanese occupied Qingdao. I would also explicitly say when the Allied forces took the city back.
• Problem sentence: That year, the Japanese placed a large sign over the main door of the cathedral which read UNDER MANAGEMENT OF THE JAPANESE ARMY.[7] The WP:MOS Says if something is all caps to render it in title case. Also since this seems to be a direct quote, it should be in quotation marks per WP:MOSQUOTE so it should be something like ... which read "Under Management Of The Japanese Army".[7] ALso did the Japanese Army close the church or curtail worship?
• I would give the dates for the Cultural Revolution and the date / year for the removal of the crosses. Is anything known about the congregation during this time? Did they worship in secret? Assume so...
• I would attribute the block quotes to the original authors (say who said them in the article). It also seems odd that the cross removal quote is from three sources?? Is it a composite translation? If so, attribute each part.
• The interior section, the second sentence of services, and the whole Ordinaries section need references to reliable sources.
• The Service section is so short that I think it would help article flow to merge it with another section - not sure if it would fit with Ordinaries?
• Also avoid words like today or currently as they can become out of date quickly - try "As of 2010," or "Since YEAR" instead.
• I am concerned about the reliability of some sources - there are two links to the Norwegian Wikipedia - no Wikipedia is a reliable source.
• Several of the refs are incomplete and need more information - for example ref 7 is just a bare link, while ref 2 seems to be a book, but needs the full author's name, publisher, year and place of publication instead of just Schultz-Naumann, Unter Kaisers Flagge, p. 183 (plus it needs to indicate that it is in German). The cite templates would probably help here, like {{cite book}} and {{cite web}}
• Could a rough translation of the Chinese titles be given?
• The toolbox finds words spelled in both American English and British English - pick one and stick with it.
• The Disambiguation finder finds two dab links.

Hope this helps. If my comments are useful, please consider peer reviewing an article, especially one at Wikipedia:Peer review/backlog (which is how I found this article). I do not watch peer reviews, so if you have questions or comments, please contact me on my talk page. Yours, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:34, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Wow, very comprehensive. I very much appreciate the feedback. Will get to work on the changes and then will let you know when they are complete in case you're interested in seeing the before and after. Thanks again! ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 03:23, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Couple comments on the awesome review: 1) The links to Norweigian Wikipedia should be wikilinks, but I don't know how to wikilink across wikipedias. They are not references; 2) Regarding citing reliable sources for the interior and services sections, my interpretation of Wikipedia:Citing sources and Wikipedia:When to cite lead me to believe citations are not necessary. ɳorɑfʈ ^Talk! 07:35, 29 April 2010 (UTC)