I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to take it to FAC. I have rewritten the whole article, and removed any unreliable source. Any comment regarding prose and sourcing issues would be very much appreciated.
Thanks, HĐ (talk) 16:23, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
STANDARD NOTE: for quicker and more responses to pre-FAC peer review requests, please remember to add your PR page to Template:FAC peer review sidebar (I have done it for you). And when you close this peer review, please be sure to remove it from there. Also consider adding the sidebar to your userpage so you can help others by participating in other pre-FAC peer reviews. Regards, Aoba47 (talk) 18:06, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am leaving this up as a placeholder. Please ping me if I do not post comments by next week. I have one quick comment about the lead as I am not sure about having a one-sentence paragraph right at the top. On a side note, this is the album I am the most interested in hearing Swift re-record as her voice has progressed so much since this release. Have a great rest of your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 18:14, 27 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your help as always, Aoba. It is actually a two-sentence paragraph, but I think it can be justified as I am uncertain if merging the first two paragraphs would hinder the flow. p.s. I am quite thrilled to see how her accent would turn out in the re-recording as well. If "Our Song" does not bear the Southern accent then I will sue her lol. Cheers, HĐ (talk) 02:36, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would hope she does the accent even if it is just for fun and to add some levity to the whole situation. I am still not 100% sold on the lead's first paragraph, but I will leave that up to other editors to discuss as well. It is just different from your past FAs (like 1989 (Taylor Swift album)) and other album FAs/FACs (like Pod (The Breeders album) and A Crow Looked at Me), but that does not mean it is wrong and I'd keep it to get further feedback. Aoba47 (talk) 03:10, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think the short lead can be justified in some cases, as in Aaliyah, from which I sort of followed the lead's flow. Looking forward to your future comments-- HĐ (talk) 04:52, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have two quick additional comments below. I will commit further time later this week to do a more comprehensive review.
I was initially surprised when reading this part, atypical to traditional radio promotion, which ushered in a younger demographic in country audiences, who had been mainly consisted of middle-aged listeners, in the lead so I looked to see where it was supported in the article and it is not really. The "Background" section does mention a middle-aged audience in this part, She was rejected because record labels believed the country music's middle-aged demographic would not listen music by a teenage girl, but that is on the record label's belief. This is the only time middle-aged is explicitly referenced in the article. This part is later complicated by this later sentence, The album's adolescent themes were considered inappropriate for country music's 25–34 key demographic., from the "Legacy" section which positions the country music audience at a younger age (i.e. 25–34 is not middle-aged). Could you please point out where the lead part is being supported as I am just not seeing it?
My bad, I mis-paraphrased the part. Billboard wrote: While country radio has long embraced a wide 25-54 demographic as its target audience, it historically skewed toward the 35-plus segment. so I guess the 25-34 demographic is something new to country radio. HĐ (talk) 02:56, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the clarification. It may be helpful to put in the 35-plus part if it is supported by the source to be clear about the age range, but it is not absolutely necessary. Aoba47 (talk) 03:14, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The image in the "Commercial performance" section seem purely decorative and does not really much to the section. We already have a very similar image of Swift (i.e. performing during this time period with a guitar), and I do not think there needs to be an image to illustrate Swift's surprise at the album's commercial success. I would recommend that you remove it. Aoba47 (talk) 18:48, 28 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure the "everyone in that town" quote is really necessary, and I think it may in fact be more beneficial to paraphrase this to clarify to the reader who exactly is being referenced here (i.e. singers, song-writers, etc.).
I paraphrased that a bit; I wonder if it reads okay now. HĐ (talk) 02:56, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I would still say no. When I said paraphrase this, I meant to paraphrase all of it. This part still uses a quote, and I do not find the new quote to be entirely necessary either. Aoba47 (talk) 03:16, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I did a copy-edit to this to address this. Aoba47 (talk) 03:17, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have a comment on this sentence: Swift's love for country music and bleeding fingers from guitar lessons alienated her from her peers. The bleeding fingers from guitar lessons is way too overly-dramatic and I do not think it fits Wikipedia's tone really at all. I would revise this.
Agree. I removed it. HĐ (talk) 02:56, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I have a question about this sentence: She took inspirations from Faith Hill's "classic old-school glamour" and the Dixie Chicks' "'we don't care what you think' quirkiness" to develop her own identity in country music. How is describing Hill and the Dixie Chicks in these ways? Is this something Swift herself said or was she responding to how music journalist labeled these women? I would attribute who is saying these quotes.
Removed since I think it is irrelevant. It was extracted from Swift's Rolling Stone interview where she was asked how she chose country music as a career. She gave a flattering opinions about a lot of country singers without going into detail how they impacted her. HĐ (talk) 02:56, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For this part, Swift later modified to "That's fine; You won't mind if I say," to avoid offense, please clarify when "later" was as that is too vague. On a related note, I am glad that she modified the lyric as calling a man "gay" as an insult was never a cute look (looking at you Katy Perry with "Ur So Gay" lol).
Hard to find any clue... Fan reddit said it was some time when it was released to radio. Other than that, no clue. I revised the wording a bit, however. HĐ (talk) 03:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That is enough of an answer for me. I was more so curious if this version was around the time of the album's release or much later down the line. Aoba47 (talk) 03:44, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
After I read this sentence, She said it was her favorite song lyrically on the album., I was curious on whether or not she said what her favorite song was on the album production-wise? I just thought it was interesting that she would point out her favorite song lyrically and it made me wonder if she had other favorites for other reasons. Also does she provide any further explanation or go more in-depth about why this is her favorite lyrically?
Added a quote to demonstrate why she chose it as her favorite lyrically. So far, no clue about her favorite production-wise. HĐ (talk) 03:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the quote as I think it adds more depth to that. I figured she did not pick (at least publicly) a favorite production-wise, but I wanted to double-check regardless. Aoba47 (talk) 03:45, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
In the "Lyrics" subsection, the two sentences on "Tied Together with a Smile" read a little awkwardly to me as I do not think it is entirely necessary to repeat the song title twice in such close proximity. I would revise the second occurrence to something else to avoid this repetition.
Revised. HĐ (talk) 03:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
For the second paragraph of the "Music" subsection, I think it would be important to recognize in the prose that all of these articles about whether or not the album was really "country music" are retrospective. The closest one to the album release was from 2008 (and even then, it is still retrospective). I think that is an important nuance to really clarify somehow (and I will leave how up to you) in the prose as some of these critics are looking back on this album through the lens of Swift already transitioning into full-blown pop music.
Building off this point, where there any music publications during the album's release (i.e. 2006) that discussed whether or not the album was "country" or Swift was a "country" artist? The PopMatters quote, find an accommodation between the country tradition and her very obvious pop sensibilities, is a good example of this, and I am curious if there was more contemporary sources that could be used as it could be interesting and relevant discussion to show how contemporary and retrospective discussions on genre have either remained the same or changed.
Reorganized the section. AllMusic did call her a "country-pop singer". Other than that, reviews disagreed on calling it pure country--but did not disagree completely that it was not country at all. I find it interesting how, apart from her straight-up pop albums, Swift was never explicitly categorized (even when she was hailed a "Country Princess" some time, Nashville still did not seem to embrace her status). Like Rolling Stone said, Swift is "her own genre". HĐ (talk) 03:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I did a small copy-edit to this. I completely missed the "In retrospective" part so that was my fault. I think that transition (which I slightly modified) would be enough to let a reader know when these sources were written and published. In my personal opinion, it is less that Swift is "her own genre" and more that the strict divisions separating genres have become increasingly blurred. I always associated Swift's earlier music as pretty straight-forward country-pop (not that this is a bad thing). Aoba47 (talk) 03:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You are right. Probably Rolling Stone was obsessing too much with Swift--after all, Rob Sheffield admitted he is a Swift fan. Looking at her 2008 Fearless, though, I just think of it as straight-up pop, probably acoustic pop rather than country. The Grammy winning "White Horse" (for Best Country song) to me is nothing of the sort... HĐ (talk) 03:47, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you. I always found a strong pop music component to Swift's music so I did not get the big surprise from some music critics when she crossed over even further to pop with 1989. The Grammys and how they categorize music by genre has been somewhat of a mess (to put it kindly) for a while now. I would have no idea how I would personally handle this issue, but it is definitely one of the flaws that could and should be addressed. I always think it is interesting when certain music critics show how much of a fan they are of a certain artist (and I do not think that is necessarily a bad thing and it could be endearing in certain respects), but I am honestly not familiar enough with music journalism to say anything significant on it. Anyway, apologies for this aside lol. I just find it interesting. Aoba47 (talk) 03:53, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You don't need to apologize for bringing up a very interesting discussion! To be honest, I felt like critics feigned surprise about her 1989 pop era just to create a media phenomenon--after all, Swift is "America's Sweetheart" and the media darling at the time. Which is not necessarily a bad thing, because her charismatic personality definitely helped with her roaring success. But I was genuinely shocked when I heard the dubstep drop on "I Knew You Were Trouble". The Grammy is definitely a mess, particularly with this year's array of nominations (I won't name-check any...) HĐ (talk) 04:05, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad that I am not the only one who felt that way about the 1989 surprise, and I could definitely see that being part of a larger narrative building around Swift's career at the time. I remember being obsessed "I Knew You Were Trouble" when it first came out, as well as "22" since I was that age at the time lol. I am both surprised and not surprised at all that the Grammys are a mess. I think award ceremonies are really struggling in general with maintaining their place and importance in pop culture. I know there are no easy answers on how to address this, but it seems like the latest Grammys nominations made a lot of people angry and confused. I do not have a personal opinion as I have honestly lost touch with modern music as I have gotten older. Whenever I think of the Grammys, I cannot help but think of this clip from The Simpsons lol. Aoba47 (talk) 04:35, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Would it be possible to provide a brief example of the hidden messages referenced in this part, She included hidden messages with hints at the subjects of her songs in the liner notes, a technique that she also executed on her subsequent albums? It should be short, but I think it would be helpful to clarify to unfamiliar readers what kind of hidden messages she uses and how she incorporates them into her music.
I included Swift's explanation on these hidden messages. There was one source where Swift explicitly said the hidden message for "Tim McGraw" is "Can't Tell Me Nothin'"-her favorite McGraw song, but unfortunately I lost track of that source now. Too bad... HĐ (talk) 04:05, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If you ever run across it again, you can always add it in. Thank you for the addition as it gives me a more concrete understanding of what this is about as I was somewhat uncertain. Aoba47 (talk) 04:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think that it may be beneficial to revise the second paragraph of the "Critical reception" section to focus on the mixed as it would give this part more structure. That's just my opinion as I am honestly the worst at writing these kinds of sections (and the only part of the article I am worse at writing are the leads lol).
On a more personal note, it is crazy to think about how successful this album has become (as I genuinely forget about it and do not see that much discussion on it online) and the Myspace parts definitely took me back. To put things into context, I was a freshman in high school when this album come out (and I just a little bit younger than Swift and I have not accomplished any near as much as her lol).
I was a small kid when this album was released so I am clueless on what Myspace is--though I do have a glimpse at how it worked. It was indeed crazy for a No. 5 album to sell five millions--when nowadays a No. 1 album struggles to sell 300k to the least. HĐ (talk) 03:26, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The way music is consumed has definitely changed since this album's release. That's why it is such a huge deal when something like 25 (Adele album) pulls so big numbers. I honestly do not try to think too much about the business side of music as it can detract my enjoyment of music, but that is just me lol. Aoba47 (talk) 04:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do not have an issue with this, but it may be worthwhile to find a more high-quality source instead of People to cite the awards sentence (as I would believe other publications would cover this part). I am only recommending this as it would avoid a potential hurdle in a FAC.
I understand the concern with People. Replaced with NYTimes. HĐ (talk) 04:14, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for replacing it. Aoba47 (talk) 04:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What are your thoughts on the [Best Buy discussion on the article's talk page]? I was only curious because I do not see the Best Buy bonus track (if that is a thing or not) reflected in the article.
Given that the Flickr image shows Big Machine Label catalog number, I re-added the Best Buy bonus track for the "Track listing" section. HĐ (talk) 03:38, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for this. I'd be curious if she is going re-record any of the bonus tracks for the re-release or if she will instead opt for completely "new" music that did not make the cut even for the album's deluxe versions. Aoba47 (talk) 04:29, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I hope these comments are helpful. I could not help myself and I decided to just read and comment on the whole thing lol. These are the main points that I have gathered after doing one read-through. Once everything is addressed, I will read through the article. I can definitely see this becoming a featured article in the future. Just be aware that the article will require maintenance, particularly when the inevitable re-recorded version is released. On a related note, I would be curious if the re-recorded versions of these albums will (or should) get their own Wikipedia articles, but that would really depend on the coverage. Have a great end to your weekend! Aoba47 (talk) 00:24, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your comments are as appreciated as always! I think whether the re-recordings deserve standalone articles depend on coverage. If new material are included and attracted reviews, then it may as well deserve an article like Good Girl Gone Bad: Reloaded; otherwise, a small section like the current Fearless (Taylor's Version) should suffice (which I am expecting to be blown into a full article once it is released in April). On another note, I think you would be interested in weighing your opinions at Talk:Dua Lipa (album)#Merger proposal, which deals with the same reissue article problem. Have a great time ahead! HĐ (talk) 03:38, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the responses. I will check out the discussion when I have the chance. I will look through the article again later this week. I think I covered the major things (at least from my perspective) though. Happy March btw lol. Aoba47 (talk) 04:37, 1 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think these are all of my comments. I hope that this peer review attracts more attention (as I am sure it will). Best of luck with this and have a great week! Aoba47 (talk) 03:06, 3 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am slowly catching up after three weeks of my computer being out for repair; I will get to this soon! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:00, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
On non-English citations, you should provide the original title in the title= parameter, and a translation to English in the trans-title= parameter. This, for example, is missing the actual title, and uses a trans-title instead: "Taylor Swift Deluxe CD+DVD" (in Japanese). Tower Records. Retrieved February 20, 2020.
album during her freshman high school year. ... unintelligible to a global audience.
Convoluted ... Of the eleven songs that made the cut, Swift has sole writing credits on three, and co-writing credits on the remaining with Robert Ellis Orrall, Brian Maher, Angelo Petraglia, and Liz Rose, the lattermost of whom formed a lasting working relationship with Swift.
Of the eleven songs that made the cut, Swift has sole writing credits on three. She had co-writing credits on the remaining with Robert Ellis Orrall, Brian Maher, Angelo Petraglia, and Liz Rose; Rose formed a lasting working relationship with Swift.
The album primarily features elements of country music with pop and pop rock flavors, accompanied by acoustic instruments such as guitars, banjos, and fiddles. The album is accompanied by instruments ?
Supported ? Five singles supported Taylor Swift,
No need to get back to me, this is not a comprehensive review, just some tips that I hope will help at FAC. Good luck, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:42, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
