Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2007 July 21

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July 21

The Hells Angels 'wing system'?

When a member of the Hells Angels earns his 'wings' for his exploits, what do the different colours signify? There used to be a long list on the web. I can only remember the more commonly known 'wings' now - but there were loads.

• Red wings - oral sex performed on a menstruating woman
• Brown wings - anal sex
• Black wings - sex with a black woman (black wings usually means sex with a corpse, I've never heard it refered to sex with a black woman.)
• White Wings - Sex with a confirmed virgin

Any others? --Kurt Shaped Box 03:23, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

• Spicy wings - sex with a habanera pepper. (not recommended)

  Wing tips - sex with a Florsheim Shoe. Edison 03:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Is this the list [1]? Donald Hosek 05:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Na, the list I saw was sourced from various books on the Angels. Some of that may be correct though. Thanks, anyway. --Kurt Shaped Box 08:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I used to be friends with a biker. He wasn't a Hell's Angel but he'd heard of the 'wings'.

Yellow wings - getting pissed on sexually

Blue wings - having sex with a cop

Pink wings - recieving anal sex

Grey wings - sex with a woman older than your mom

They sound like scout badges for 'guys who do laugh at other guys doing grody stuff'. It's a big boy's club really, isn't it?

C.A. White - Author

Hello, I was looking for information on an author of the 1800's by the name of C.A. White. I have searched the web top to bottom, but can only find people selling his book, "The Student's Mythology." As far as i can find, it's the only book he ever wrote. I even tried asking a reference librarian, but there was still nothing. If you could uncover any information regarding this author, I would greatly appreciate it. If it helps, the only information I have on his book is that the first publication date was 1870, and the last was 1927. It's called The Student's Mythology and has information on many different mythologies from Greece, Persia, China, Tibet, Ireland, etc. I own the copy from 1900 and it was published by Armstrong and Son. For that matter, if you could find any information on the publisher as well, that would be great.

71.105.116.54 05:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC) Rachel

The publishers appear to be A.C. Armstrong and Son. Check through the linked search. Corvus cornix 21:21, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Library catalogs show that the author is Catherine Ann White (1825-1878). Her publisher described her as "an experienced teacher."[2] She also published Classic literature, principally Sanskrit, Greek, and Roman, with some account of the Persian, Chinese, and Japanese, in the form of sketches of the authors and specimens from translations of their works (editions include H. Holt 1877 and an undated 19th c. edition by The Baker & Taylor co.). For queries of this kind you might want to try Worldcat. Wareh 16:51, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much! 216.116.120.200 17:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)Rachel

Neville Henderson and Appeasement

To what degree was Neville Henderson, the pre war British ambassador in Berlin, implicated in the appeasement of Hitler? S. J. Blair 05:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Implicated? In what way, implicated? ie. to suggest that he was the main person driving appeasement?martianlostinspace 12:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Inevitably. Britain was then in no position to pursue any other course. - CarbonLifeForm 15:27, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia's article Nevile Henderson is rather short, but does suggest that he was of the appeasionist school. Perhaps Clio could enlighten us further. DuncanHill 15:34, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Henderson was British ambassador to Germany at a crucial stage in diplomatic history and must, therefore, have been party to the policy of the Chamberlain government. I was hoping for a more detailed answer, but thank you all for the responses so far. I look forward to Clio's response. S. J. Blair 22:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, she is now here, and will try to live up to the expectations of both Duncan and S. J. Blair!

The post of ambassador to Berlin during and after Munich was never going to be an easy one. No ambassador, whatever his private views, can afford to take a different public position from the Prime Minister or the government of the day and expect to remain in place. Henderson has thus been targeted as a leading appeaser, sometimes in quite distasteful terms, though he was never more than a scapegoat for policy failings elsewhere. Lewis Namier, called him an 'ill-starred man', and in The Appeasers Martin Gilbert and Richard Gott even refer to him as "our Nazi Ambassador in Berlin." So, what's the evidence? Does he deserve such opprobrium. No, quite frankly, he does not.

During his career Henderson made steady progress in the Diplomatic Service, and was particularly successful in Belgrade, where he enjoyed a good relationship with King Alexander. It was because of this that he was given the important Berlin posting in 1937. But from the outset there was a problem: he loathed Ribbentrop, and Ribbentrop loathed him, conveying his feelings to Hitler. He did, however, enjoy good realtions with Hermann Göring, whom he considered to be a 'moderate', who might exercise a restraining influence on Hitler. As far as Hitler himself was concerned Henderson believed him to be so abnormal that he might, as he put it, "have crossed the borderline into outright insanity."

Henderson's chief weakness was a failure to recognise the insanity of the whole Nazi system. He continued to believe that he could operate within the reasonable parameters of classic diplomacy. In this he was no different from many others, including Josef Stalin, who right up to the German invasion of Russia in 1941 believed that Hitler was moved by the same pragmatic considerations as he was himself. For Henderson, Hitler was simply an 'aggrieved nationalist', who could be expected to move down reasonable paths with proper encouragement, and the right kind of concessions. The story of his mission in Berlin is the story of increasingly desperate attempts to save the peace. Yes, he supported Munich, not just because of sympathy for the 'grievances' of the Germans, but because he was aware of Britain's military weakness at that time. If a war was to be fought it had to be winnable; and Henderson's appeasement went hand-in-hand with support for rearmament.

Like Chamberlain himself, Henderson recognised that the German occupation of the purely Czech lands of Bohemia and Moravia in March 1939 marked a new point of departure in international relations, and he warned both Ribbentrop and Hitler of the consequences of further aggression. He was fully behind the British guarantee to Poland. During a face-to-face interview with Hitler on 29 August 1939, he even had the courage to yell "I and his Majesty's Government did not give a row of pins whether Germans were slaughtered or not." And this to Hitler! All of this is detailed in Failure of a Mission, the memoir Henderson published in 1940.

In the end, no matter how vigorous a voice, Henderson was merely a messenger. And, as such, he has been unfairly shot, both then and since. Clio the Muse 01:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Many thanks Clio, I have just found an etext of Failure of a Mission at this link [3]. Good to see a book written at the suggestion of a stationmaster! DuncanHill 01:16, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

It was worth the wait! Thank you for this, Clio. Are you a student of diplomatic history by any chance? S. J. Blair 07:15, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Reading Clio's User page may answer your questions.  :) Corvus cornix 21:24, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Very true! I thank you for your appreciation, S. J. Clio the Muse 23:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Camelin

Was camelin really made of camel's hair? Colors or natural? What colors? Was it called "wool" or anything else? When was it most popular in use? What medieval clothing was made from this? What countries used it and when? --24.247.236.10 13:55, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:33WIt-CiSk8J:www.medievaltextiles.org/reprintNMMcamelin.pdf+%22camelin%22+camel+hair&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=opera this explains it pretty well.

Who is Charles F Horne, author

This individual has 364 books published by Kessinger Publishing; but I haven't been able to find out anything about him.

Listed below is a partial list of his books from Kessinger's web-site.

Thanks, in advance, for any information you will provide. --Kathygilders 15:54, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

A Profession Of Faith Of Omar Khayyam • Adapa And The Food Of Life • Al Biruni's Existing Monuments Or Chronology • Al Maqqari's Breath Of Perfumes • Ama-Terasu The Sun Goddess: Early Japanese Literature • An Ancient Babylonian Moralist's Council • An Ancient Babylonian Penitential Psalm • An Arabic New Testament Apocrypha Gospel Of The Infancy • An Introduction To The Kabbalah Or Secret Tradition • An Introduction To The Koran • Ancient Arabic Science And History • Ancient Assyrian Literature: Sennacherib's Boast • Ancient Assyrian Literature: The Black Obelisk Of Shalmaneser • Ancient Assyrian Literature: The Inscription Of Sargon II • Ancient Assyrian Literature: The Nimrod Inscription • Ancient Business Documents Of Belshazzar • Ancient Chinese Hymns And Eulogies • Ancient Chinese Songs For The Greater Festivals • Ancient Chinese Songs For The Lesser Festivals • Ancient Chinese Songs Of The Various States • Ancient Egyptian Hymn To Re As Sole God • Ancient Egyptian Hymns To Aton The Creator • Ancient Egyptian Hymns To The Nile • Ancient Egyptian Hymns To The One Universal God • Ancient Egyptian Literature Of The Age Of Weakness • Ancient Egyptian Literature Of The Great Empire • Ancient Egyptian Literature Of The Middle Empire • Ancient Egyptian Romance Literature • Ancient Egyptian Tales Of Romance And Travel • Ancient Hebrew Biblical Songs • Ancient Japanese Shinto Purification Ritual • Ancient Japanese Shinto Ritual For Evil Spirits • Ancient Japanese Shinto Rituals To The Sun Goddess • Ancient Moorish Literature • Ancient Records Of The Assyrian Conquering Kings • Ancient Texts In The Akkadian Or Oldest Semitic Tongue • Ancient Turkish Legends And Poetry • Ancient Turkish Literature • Ancient Turkish Poetesses • Artists and Authors: Great Men and Famous Women V7 • Artists and Authors: Great Men and Famous Women V8 • Autumn Of The Palace Of Han: An Ancient Chinese Historical Drama • Avicenna On Medicine: The Work Of The Arab's Chief Scientist • Babylonian Moral And Philosophical Texts • Babylonian Proverbs • Basho The Chief Japanese Poet • Biography Of A Soldier Under Thutmose III • Buddha And His Birth Stories From The Burmese • Buddha And The Red Fish • Buddha And The Strider Over Battlefields

Charles F. Horne, MS, PhD, was a professor at the College of the City of New York. He graduated from the College in 1889. The earliest title I could find (co)authored or (co)edited by him is from 1907 (Mosenthal, Philip J., and Charles F. Horne (editors). The City College Memories of Sixty Years. Edited for the Associate Alumni of the College of the City of New York. New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, The Knickerbocker Press, 1907). In spite of his prolificacy in producing books, I don't find any further biographic detail.  --Lambiam 17:35, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Is the electoral college system used in U.S presidential elections irrational, illogical, undemocratic and perverse?

Gore won half a million more votes than Bush in the 2000 election. how can a system in which Bush wins possibly be justified? Willy turner 17:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

How can it be? See United States Electoral College#Arguments for the current system. And don't try to start political debates here, please; note the guidelines at the top of the page. --Anonymous, July 21, 2007, 17:17:17 (UTC).

The non-arguments on that page are pathetic. Does anyone have a decent argument? Or should we accept that the U.S isnt a democracy? Dont accuse me of trying to start a debate (heaven forbid, a debate!, what a terrible way of rationaly forming an opinion) what happened to assuming good faith? Willy turner 17:37, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it value-term, value-term, or value-term? That depends on the judge. The best argument against the abolition of the electoral college I have heard has been a cynical one: to do so means a constitutional convention, and, if a constitutional convention were opened, vast quantities of bullflop would be introduced (flag burning bans, gay marriage bans, equal rights guarantees that trip over their own language, rights of privacy delineated and therefore limited, property rights insistences that end up being only for one group, taxes specified as prohibited, balanced budget amendments, term limit amendments, ad nauseum). Few people argue that the college is particularly wonderful, but it's hardly the most compelling anti-democratic part of the US system (all or nothing voting, e.g. creates "landslides" when a person gets 50.01% votes). No citation of AGF, though: you have already said that you want to create an argument, and that's not what this page is for or what Wikipedia is for. Geogre 18:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't require a constitutional convention, it could be amended out of existence. But since smaller states are disproportionately powerful with the electoral college, that is unlikely. The most likely scenario where the e.c. becomes irrelevant is a series of state laws giving states' electoral votes to the candidate with the largest national vote total, with laws going into effect only if a sufficient number of states have them that they will determine the election. But eliminating the e.c. also means getting rid of the cool red v. blue maps on election night. Donald Hosek 18:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

The smaller states would not have ratified the Constitution if they had not had the protection afforded them by extra electoral votes due to the 2 Senators per state in additional to the proportionally allocated Representatives. Today, the little states would still lose out in the Presidential electoral process if they lost the extra electoral votes, so they would have little incentive to ratify an amendment which made the Presidential election solely by popular vote. But the Constitution and laws leave it up to the states how they select the electors. It is now by popular vote within each state, but there is no legal barrier to making it largely proportional, which would make it unlikely one candidate would have 500,000 more popular votes, but lose in the Electoral college. Supreme Court opinions have noted that a state could have the legislature select the electors, or it could appoint any person to decide who the electors aree, or it could have it be by tossing a coin or any other predefined method. So like Maine and Nebraska, a state might pass legislation to assign an electoral vote for each Congressional district to the winner of the popular vote majority or plurality in that district, and provide a method for allocating the electoral votes representing the 2 Senators to 2 geographic portions of the state, or both to the candidate with the most popular votes in the state or by some other scheme more proportional than the present. Such measures would result in more elections where no candidate got a clear majority, since minor candidates would win a majority in a few congressional districts and more elections would be decided in the House of Representatives, with parliamentary maneuvering and coalition forming more like a parliamentary government. In the House, each state would get one vote, which would somewhat disenfranchise voters in the more populous states. A state could also pass legislation allocating all its electroal votes to the candidate with the most popular votes nationally, or to the candidate with the most popular votes in all the states who decided to allocate their votes by that method. If the people want popular election of the President, it can thus be implemented state by state. An elector can choose to be a Faithless elector and vote for anyone he chooses, which can be either a benefit or a detriment of having an actual living Elector cast the ballot rather than having "Electroal votes" cast without a human Elector. The present "winner take all " state electoral vote allocation has one benefit: if the voting in a state is completely corrupt and fraudulent, the most they can do is give all their votes to their favorite. They cannot stuff the national ballot box by adding hundreds of thousands of fake votes and thus swing the national election. Edison 19:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

You have to understand that the Framers of the Constitution assumed the electors would be chosen by state legislatures (as they were for most states at first), not by popular vote. So we can't really blame the Framers for the faults of the system; they would not have envisioned a situation like what happened in 2000. The system is an anachronism. -- Mwalcoff 02:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The best explanation of the way the president is elected in the US, that I've seen, is that given by James Madison in Federalist Papers, No. 39 (available here). As described at United States Electoral College#Arguments for the current system, Madison's argument is that the US is both a federation of states and a nation of people, so its government should reflect both aspects. In Congress this is achieved by having two houses, one of which is elected via a population-based method (the House, reflecting the "national" aspect of the US), the other via a state-based method (the Senate, reflecting the "federal" aspect). The electoral college, Madison argues, is a similar mixture of national and federal methods. I never understood the electoral college until I read Federalist 39. Makes sense to me. Pfly 07:02, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

One way of making the Electoral College irrelevant would be if the individual states divided their EC votes proportionately based on popular vote within the state. There is some movement in that direction. Corvus cornix 21:28, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it makes sense in the context of an alliance of states where the smaller ones don't want to get marginalized. What doesn't make sense is assigning electors by a winner-take-all system in each state. Gzuckier 16:00, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It makes abundant sense to boosters who want their state to "matter" as much as possible. Candidates pay lots of attention to states where a small swing can change a fistful of EC votes; where a small swing affects at most 3 EC votes, as in the proportional states, the stakes are lower and thus the local politicians get fewer opportunities to bend the future President's ear. —Tamfang 02:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A true democracy is impossible, no systems are perfect. There is no method of implementing the philosophy behind a democracy in such a manner as to be completely inline with it, and as Rousseau wrote “Taking the term in its strict sense, there never have existed, and never will exist, any true democracy . . . It is impossible to imagine that the people should remain in perpetual assembly to attend to public affairs”. So really the question is pointless, yes the system is imperfect, but a balance has to be found between the various justifications of different systems. Where the balance lies is up to the discretion of the person whose opinion is formed. I would argue that no system of democracy could ever correctly represent the general will of the public, so effectively it is a pointless exercise trying to do just that. Philc 16:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm still amused at how angry some people are that the power went to the political dynast who got 48% of the popular vote instead of to the political dynast who got 49% of the popular vote. —Tamfang 02:33, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Are there any individuals, organisations or political parties calling for an upper house in a bicameral legislature to be made up of professors?

what i mean is a system whereby legislation could be vetoed by a vote in an upper house composed of academics. ie if a bill regarding sentences was passed by the lower house it would be reffered to a panel consisting of criminologists, penoligists etc. If a bill regarding drugs was passed by the lower house it could be vetoed by the nations proffesors specialising in addiction, drug use etc, etc Willy turner 17:06, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

How about the Technocracy movement? Never mind. This group advocates "abolishing political controls". Clarityfiend 18:08, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Totall off topicness, but one of the characters in Iolanthe tried to get the British House of Lords turned into a merit system-civil service legislature. Also, under the original constitution of New York State there was a (noxious) "Council of Revision" composed of various people who could reject legislation after it was passed, and the (unicamerial) Reichstag at some point was composed of a massive number of professors. None of that answered your question though, but as far as I know noone advocates that. The harder problem would be, how would you get them there? Election? Seniority? Retirement? 68.39.174.238 22:25, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

how would you get them there? no elections- if youre a professor in a certain field then you get to vote on legislation that is within that field. obviously it would would require investment to recruit a lot more profs Willy turner 01:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

That would lead to a MASSIVE upper house. 68.39.174.238 02:25, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, against such ideas I think the most famous statement is William F. Buckley, Jr.'s that he would rather be governed by the first 2000 names in the Boston phone book than by the faculty of Harvard. I would have to agree with him there.John Z 22:45, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

really? you dont think the faculty of harvard might have a little more expertise than the average voter? Willy turner 01:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I think I'm right in saying that John Stuart Mill advocated more voting rights for university graduates, based on the value of education. Not because these people should feel entitled to have any more rights, but because they are more educated and can by held that by extension, more knowledgeable, and more intelligent than arbitrarily selected members of the general public. Philc 16:18, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Technocracy (bureaucratic) appears to be the most relevent article we have. Rockpocket 23:01, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

yes but isnt there anyone who is advocating what is described in the Technocracy (bureaucratic) page, even just an upper house being chosen that way? Willy turner 01:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This happened in an episode of The simpsons. Llamabr 01:01, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

And that article links to geniocracy. —Tamfang 08:18, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Westminster before 1948(?) had a few seats elected by alumni of Oxbridge. —Tamfang 08:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The Free City of Kraków (1815-1848) had a bicameral parliament where 3 out of 41 members of the House of Representatives, as well as 2 out of 13 senators, were elected by the Jagiellonian University from among its doctors and professors. Additionally, only university graduates (with few exceptions) could be elected to either house. The cathedral chapter had the same number of representatives (canons and prelates) in both houses as the university.

The Irish Senate is elected in different ways: 6 out of 60 are elected by university constituencies, graduated from the University of Dublin and the National University of Ireland; 43 are elected by specialist boards, to represent people with knowledge of and experience in specific fields such as culture and arts.

And indeed Tamfang, since 1603 until the Representation of the People Act 1948 there were University Constituencies in the United Kingdom elected by graduates from universities. Famous representatives include William Pitt the Younger, Ramsay McDonald and

"India had university constituencies before independence, but these were abolished with the adoption of the modern Constitution of India. Nevertheless, today the President of India has the authority to appoint not more than twelve scientists, artists, or other persons who have special knowledge in similar fields, to the Rajya Sabha."

Just as a side note: of the 75 members of the Senate, 15 members are also professor and 5 hold lower positions at universities. There are no requirements to create this situation other than the fact that Senator is a part time position and it is a chamber of reflexion.

C mon 10:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

A. P. Herbert was another university MP. —Tamfang 18:32, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Law - Finding U.S. Federal and State Code Sections

I'm writing a humorous story where individuals can trade in violations of the law, much as the current Emissions trading market trades in violations of pollutant emissions limits (think eBay, but you can literally buy your way out of a speeding tocket). In doing so, I need to cite criminal code (presumably Code of Federal Regulations and California Penal Code) for several crimes ("I just sold a CPC 1234, insider trading, for $30000!"). The problem is that it's intimidating as Hell to tackle these documents cold. I'm looking for advice on how to go about this. Is there a database to look up key terms? Am I stuck slogging through the whole online documents?

Here are the crimes/infractions I'm using in the story along with the code I think applies:

• Excessive Speed (Speeding) - California Vehicle Code.
  • I am also willing to relocate this story to a different state, as long as I have a citation for handicapped parking, below.
• Insider Trading - Federal Code.
• Wire Fraud - Federal Code.
• Failure to have enough handicapped parking at a store/shopping mall - California Building Code
• Failure to obtain a street performance permit - I know this would be specific to a particular municipality, so I don't need a code, only need the proper way to phrase this in conversation ("Well, I have this old street performance permit violation I had wanted to sell, but finding a street musician with good credit is a lost cause...")

Also, I understand that these offenses might actually break multiple laws. For puposes of the story I'm ignoring that fact and simply need a single code section to cite.

Thanks. --KNHaw ^(talk) 17:22, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Are you asking someone to lookup and provide citations to all these statutes by topic area? If this is for a humorous story, and not for legal research, why don't you just make up phony citations? If it is for legal research, you will need to do more than just look for code sections, you will need to do research to validate your conjecture that the code applies in the way you think it does. Phony citations may help you there because it will help prevent unjustifiable reliance on the accuracy of your cites.

The end goal is for me to write something realistic looking, as 99% of readers will never look past the line on the page. It's the other 1% who will either care enough about the story to send me an "attaboy" if they find the citations authentic or a nasty letter if I screw it up. Note that I did not expect anyone to look these up for me - just point me to a resource so I can do my own work. --KNHaw ^(talk) 18:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

If all you want to know is the proper format for constructing official-looking legal citations, find a copy of the Bluebook and just follow the very cumbersome rules. Better yet, go to "google books" and type in "user's guide to the bluebook". They may have a limited preview online. If that's not good enough try Westlaw or Lexis.

Thanks. This is exactlywhat I wanted out of this post. --KNHaw ^(talk) 18:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Generally, this kind of request raises eyebrows though, because some might think it is simply a subterfuge for obtaining free legal research. dr.ef.tymac 20:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I can understand the concern, but no this is entirely for a story. I don't want advice - just a pointer to a resource that lets me write a realistic (preferably authentic) little scribbling to stick inside the story. --KNHaw ^(talk) 18:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Check the articels? I went to Wire fraud and it gave me the exact citaytion: 18 U.S.C. § 1343. The rest could probably be accomplisht by simple Googlewhacking of various sites in the .edu, .gov and .gov.ca TLDs. 68.39.174.238 22:28, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. I honestly hadn't expected to find such a cite in articles on individual offenses. I'll check all the individual wiki articles before I dive into the U.S. code. --KNHaw ^(talk) 18:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

The US code is here: [4]. There's a search function you can use, or you can browse by title. The California code is here: [5]. -- Mwalcoff 02:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Between all these resources, I expect this will be short work. --KNHaw ^(talk) 18:40, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Why are Scots disproportionately vastly over represented in the U.K armed forces?

Surely the answer is more nuanced than we like/are good at fighting? Willy turner 18:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

One would have to guess, but I would think that volunteer armed forces draw members from economically limited areas and from families with a tradition of service. Therefore, if the economy of Scotland is disproportionately depressed, there would be higher enrollment. Additionally, if such had been the case, the families might well grow to see the military as a familial trait. Geogre 18:11, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

I think there may be a historical reason for this, regarding the formation of Scottish regiments. Perhaps one of our resident historians could opine. Rockpocket 23:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I would have to ask what the evidence for this contention is? Are there figures to prove that the Scots are over-represented in the modern British Army? Clio the Muse 00:07, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

% of british army that are scots is 13% [6] % of british population that are scots- 5 million out of 60 million- 8.3% the proportion of scots in the SAS is much higher than that though, ill get a figure Willy turner 01:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC) Scottish troops made up more than a quarter of the British forces who took part in the Normandy landings.[7] Willy turner 01:33, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

N.B. It says Armed Forces, which would include the Royal Marines as well as Her Majesty's Navy. Llamabr 01:05, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course it does; but the same questions still stand! Clio the Muse 01:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, thus, the N.B., rather than some sort of contradiction. I meant to note that marines and sailors don't consider themselves to be in the modern British Army (one reason for which, is that they are not). Llamabr 03:03, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Then the answer does indeed relate to issues of relative economic deprivation, as well as a pre-existing martial tradition. Recruitment, I imagine, is best in those areas, like Glasgow, with high levels of local unemployment, and in those parts of the country with strong links to a locally based regiment, like the Black Watch. It's an open question, I suppose, if the formation of the Royal Regiment of Scotland will impacat in any negative sense on this tradition. Clio the Muse 02:54, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, Scotland doesn't have a lot of exportable resources, so they make the most of what they can export; whiskey, wool, and Scots, by ensuring that exported goods are of the highest quality. Similar to the reason it's not just the Enterprise, but half the ships at sea which have an engineer known as "Scotty". Gzuckier 16:05, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

How many indigenous people have been murdered in the area currently constituting the U.S, and does it constitute genocide?

ie the entire country was full of people before Europeans came, and where are they now? Was there a deliberate policy of extermination of 'Native americans'? and why does nobody seem to care? Willy turner 18:17, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Population history of American indigenous peoples says that estimates of the indigenus population of the present US at the start of European colonization range from 8.4 million to 112.5 million. There were no census records, or historical population surveys before the arrival of Europeans, so only estimates are available. An historian quoted describes "the modern trend of high estimates as 'pseudo-scientific number-crunching.' " A 1976 "consensus count" estimate of the pre-Columbian population was 54 million. Europeans had a degree of immunity to devastating diseases which killed many of the indigenous population. Warfare also had a severe toll, both conducted by Europeans and by other indigenous tribes. Indigenous peoples of the Americas says in the section "Modern statistics on indigenous populations" that the indigenous population in the US is presently 2%, and with part-indigenous included, 7%, per the 2000 US Census. In the section "History and status by country" it says "Native Americans make up 2 percent of the population, with more than 6 million people identifying themselves as such, although only 1.8 million are registered tribal members." The 2007 US population is estimated at 302,104,000, yielding a present indigenous population of 6 million indigenous and 21 million part indigenous per the 2000 Census percentages. They live throughout the US, with some living on reservations. At some times and in some places there was certainly a policy of extermination. In other instances there was a policy of purchasing land and displacing the indigenous population as in the Jackson Purchase , or simply displacing the indigenous population to less settled land such as Oklahoma , which was then Indian Territory as in the Trail of Tears , or to reservations. Where are you looking that you find no one who cares? Some indications of concern are the American Indian Movement , movies and books such as Cheyenne Autumn , Little Big Man , Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee , and Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee (film) . There have also been Native American rights movements recently which have banned Native American mascots , names, or symbols from athletic teams, such as Chief Illiniwek . Indigenous populations on reservations have limited sovereignty, which allows them to operate Native American gambling enterprises which presently bring in $14,500,000,000 a year in revenue. Edison 19:00, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

thank you for your excellent answer edison Willy turner 19:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC) could it be called genocide though? Willy turner 01:12, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

There are some cases of actions that qualify as genocide, especially toward the end of Indian independence (mid to late 1800s). Wounded Knee might be the prime example of this, although earlier, less well known examples abound. There were definitely some individuals who advocated policies of genocide. But I would say that for the most part the colonial and US governments, and people in general did not practice what we would today call genocide, although it depends on what exactly one means by genocide. If genocide is the systematic rounding up of people for the purpose of executing them, then no, such things occurred only rarely and on a small scale. On the other hand, if genocide means something less direct -- like forcing people into reservation "ghettos" and not helping much when disease and abject poverty cause deaths, or deliberating destroying the economic foundations of a people (like wiping out the bison), then the case for genocide is stronger. But genocide usually denotes something more than that. Wikipedia's page on it begins by saying that genocide is "the deliberate and systematic extermination of an ethnic or national group". While the history of US-Indian relations is pretty ugly, I think it only very rarely reached that level. Typically what was deliberately targetted and destroyed was the power of Indian Nations, not so much the lives of individual Indians themselves. After an Indian Nation was thoroughly defeated, the survivors were usually not rounded up and "systematically exterminated".

Even among people who forced Indians to give up land for reservations and worked to undermine traditional ways of life, many or even most were not trying to kill Indians outright. A great many such people were actually trying to "save" Indians. Sometimes their motives were misguided, at least as seen from hindsight -- such as the policies of "de-tribalizing" Indians via boarding schools, or the extinction of tribally owned land in exchange for individual owned parcels. Many people saw the fate of the Indians as disturbingly grim, and felt that the only way to avoid general extinction was to work to transform Indian societies and cultures to "fit in" better with the newcomers way of life. Many or most Indian societies resisted such assimilation to the point of war, but this does not mean they were resisting genocide so much as cultural destruction.

A slightly better term might be Ethnic cleansing. But even that does not apply in general. Many people advocated policies like Indian Removal without wishing to see Indian ways of life destroyed. Thomas Jefferson comes to mind. Also a great portion of the destruction of Indian societies came about through warfare between, or within Indian tribes themselves. In any case, while I certainly don't mean to downplay the catastrophe that occurred, I think genocide is too strong a word for the big picture. Pfly 08:03, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

One could make this question more strict, asking, "If the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide was in place at the time, could anyone have been found guilty of it and, if so, who?" The thing about the genocide convention is that one has to specify who has committed specified acts "with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". You could probably find individuals for whom one could make a decent argument, but applying the Convention definition to the entire scope of deaths would be problematic as one would have to state that they were all done with the same genocidal intent. Though I'm sure that if one looked long enough through Genocide definitions, one could find a definition of genocide that would label the deaths of the Native Americans a genocide. - BanyanTree 08:46, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The concept of "genocide" was introduced into international legal discourse in the 20th century. Although many attempts have been made to accuse Ancient Persians, Romans, Huns, etc, etc of "genocide", this fallacy of anachronistic reasoning is little more than an exercise in empty rhetoric. --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:43, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

It is important to note more clearly the widespread and lasting impact that outbreaks of imported diseases had. The tale of 'smallpox-infested blankets' is relatively widely known, but focusing solely on that would be a mistake: it brings to mind a picture of Europeans deliberately infecting tribes to gain a local advantage. This is historically incorrect, both in time as in scale.

When the first Europeans landed in the Americas, they did not land alone. They brought with them their animals, their plants, and also their germs. These germs caused diseases that, after centuries of lurking endemically in the sewers and hospitals of Europe, were lethal mostly to children and those that survived to adulthood, often had immunities for life. Europeans had lived with these maladies for generations: the genetically vulnerably had long died off and the hardy had spread around their genes, so that a relatively high level of resistance was present.

Of course, the native Americans had no such resistance. When the Europeans landed, their germs spread quite literally like wildfire. The Americas had had woefully little experience with epidemics of any kind; their medical knowledge and practices were catastrophically unable to cope. Disease, not only smallpox but also measles, typhus, the plague, cholera, malaria, influenza and many others, rode ahead of the invaders, wiping out entire villages and consuming the very fabric of society. Where the Europeans followed in its tracks, they encountered only ruins, ghosts, and weeping.

The following tale might illustrate. 'The Kiowa of the southern plains of the United States have a legend in which a Kiowa man meets Smallpox on the plain, riding a horse. The man asks, "Where do you come from and what do you do and why are you here?" Smallpox answers, "I am one with the white men - they are my people as the Kiowas are yours. Sometimes I travel ahead of them and sometimes behind. But I am always their companion and you will find me in their camps and in their houses." "What can you do?" the Kiowa asks. "I bring death," Smallpox replies. "My breath causes children to wither like young plants in spring snow. I bring destruction. No matter how beautiful a woman is, once she has looked at me she becomes as ugly as death. And to men I bring not death alone, but the destruction of their children and the blighting of their wives. The strongest of warriors go down before me. No people who have looked at me will ever be the same."'

More on this can be found in, among other books, Alfred Crosby's Germs, Seeds & Animals. Random Nonsense 18:07, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

The genocidal disposition of the US government in the post Civil War era is shown by the quote attributed to General Phil Sheridan at a meeting with Indian chiefs in 1869:"The only good Indian is a dead Indian." [8] Future US President Theodore Roosevelt expressed similar sentiments in a speech in 1886, per the above site, saying ""I suppose I should be ashamed to say that I take the Western view of the Indian. I don't go so far as to think that the only good Indians are dead Indians, but I believe nine out of every ten are, and I shouldn't like to inquire too closely into the case of the tenth." Many educated mid 19th century Americans regarded Indians as a lesser race of subhumans, as in Horace Greeley's "Lo the poor Indian" denunciation, written in 1859, where he said they would likely become extinct within 50 years due to their own incapability, saying they were "..utterly incompetent to cope in any way with the European or Caucasian race".."a slave of appetite and sloth, never emancipated from the tyranny of one animal passion save by the more ravenous demands of another." and "These people must die out--there is no help for them. God has given this earth to those who will subdue and cultivate it, and it is vain to struggle against His righteous decree." [9] . So many 19th century Americans of European origin could have justified extermination of Native Americans based on such utterances from the leaders of society and government and as a natural process, hovever evil and misguided such words appear today. Such views of the indigenous populations are certainly not unique to the US; just look at how the European powers treated the natives they found in their worldwide empires in a similar era. Edison 15:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course. However, I would argue that epidemics, and their impact, killed more native Americans than other humans did. Without wanting to minimise the killing done by European and ‘colonial' governments, I do think we shouldn't confuse the two phenomena: the post-contact outbreaks and subsequent deaths, which can't be attributed to Western malevolence, and the later wars and murders, which can be. Random Nonsense 19:01, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Funerals in Nottingham

Is it just me or are the funerals in Nottingham completly different then anywhere else in our country? Cause I`ve been to one yesterday,and I never seen anything like it before,coming from London...If anyone got some kind of explanation,please go ahead?? 81.133.89.171 19:13, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

What did they do that was out of the ordinary? Was it the flaming Viking longship drifting out to sea with the remains? Edison 19:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Was it a funeral for someone with a different relgion/ethnicity; Nottingham has quite large populations of Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, who have funerals which seem odd from a British perspective (sombreness and mourning are smaller components of the service, especially in the Antam Sanskar (Sikh funeral)). Funeral services are usually the choice of the family or departed anyway; people often make idiosyncratic requests of their burial services anyway, whether by being buried in a Kiss Kasket or wearing a football kit in the coffin; I doubt that overall Nottinghamtonians are any stranger than Londoners or Novocastrians or Leodensians. Laïka 20:04, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes a Morris Minor is used as a casket [10] . A Dr. John Jakway in New York requested burial standing upright with his skull exposed so people could crack nuts on it [11] . Edison 20:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

As mentioned above and in the header, be specific/give details. Can you mention anything about it, or what caught your eye? Also, what's "normal" for your country? 68.39.174.238 22:31, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

My experience of recent funerals in the UK is that nothing is "normal" any more. In fact people take pride in arranging funerals that are creative, individual and more appropriate than the old-fashioned ones.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:46, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Fourth Panzer Army

What was the 'Death Ride of the Fourth Panzer Army'? Secret seven 20:42, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No doubt someone with much more expertise will expand upon this answer, but, the short form appears to be that it is a term for the German defeat at Prochorovka (which has a number of spellings)in 1943. There was nothing about it in Fourth Panzer Army, but History.net calls it "death gully" in this article [12]. Bielle 23:12, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Or perhaps the Death Ride refers to a later stage, on January 12 and 13, 1945, when the 4. Panzer-Armee was employed as a tank reserve force near Kielce and waited in vain for orders from Berlin in order to defend themselves against the overwhelming Russian superiority. (See Vistula-Oder Offensive) The order didn't arrive until 30 hours later, by when the Russians had already overrun and destroyed a number of tanks. The Russian troops under Konev already were behind "enemy lines" on their way to Berlin. The motto was "Run for your lives!" at that point. (From a German site on missing soldiers)---Sluzzelin talk 00:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I know what this is, it's a reference to the Battle of Kursk in 1943, part of Unternehmen Zitadelle, the last German summer offensive in Russia. So Bielle is partly correct in her mention of the Battle of Prokhorovka, which forms a part of the bigger struggle, in which Hermann Hoth's Fourth Panzer Army was engaged. The Wikipedia article describes this as 'one of the largest tank battles in human history.' I personally do not know of any larger. One German formation, the Grossdeutschland Division, which began the battle with 118 tanks had only 20 left after a few days of fighting. Clio the Muse 01:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

As so often happens, the article about Prokhorovka was eroded by anonymous edits. --Ghirla^-трёп- 10:10, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

Is Bielle called Duncan too? :) DuncanHill 01:35, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry; wrong attribution; I meant Bielle! I was still thinking in terms of the Henderson question above. My error has now been corrected. Clio the Muse 01:38, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Britain and Germany 1933 to 1939

What are the main factors causing the deterioration in the relationship between Britain and Nazi Germany leading up to the outbreak of war? S. J. Blair 22:24, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

We should have an articel on Causes of World War II... 68.39.174.238 22:32, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Here a rocky road is to be followed! We know from a reading of Mein Kampf that Hitler thought the foreign policy previously pursued by Germany during the Second Reich had been a mistake, and that he hoped to draw Britain, as well as Italy, into a working partnership with the Third Reich. There were early moves towards establishing better relations, with the mission of Alfred Rosenberg in 1933 and later by Joachim von Ribbentrop. This 'honymoon period' reached its most successful expression in the Anglo-German Naval Agreement of 1935, which in establishing a bilateral understanding on naval armaments undermined both the provisions of the Versailles Treaty and the whole notion of collective security. Thereafter relations went from bad to disastrous. Oddly enough it came not from any aggressive move by the Germans, but from Ribbentrop's complete misreading of the mood and attitude of both the British people and the political establishment.

As a reward for his part in securing the Naval Agreement Ribbentrop was appointed ambassador to London, one of Hitler's worst appointments. Shallow and vain, and completely incapable of understanding the political process at work in Britain, Ribbentrop made one faux pas after another, even at one point throwing a Nazi salute to King George VI. The cartoonist David Low started to refer to the hapeless ambassador as 'Herr Brickendrop'. Hitler, in defending him, said that Ribbentrop was useful in the position because he knew some important people, Göring responded by saying "Yes, but the trouble is, they also know Ribbentrop." Ribbentrop remained politically influential with Hitler, but left Britain with a violent sense of resentment, which was to play an important part in the outbreak of war in 1939.

The other thing was that Hitler was under the impression that Britain's interests were focused on the overseas empire, and that he would be allowed, in the right circumstances, to have a free hand in Europe. But he completely failed to grasp one simple point: the maintenance of the balance of power in Europe was one of the constant features of British foreign policy. The Munich agreement seemed to confirm Hitler's view that Britain was keen to disengage from Europe. The real position was summarised by Richard Overy in The Road to War (1989); The lesson that Hitler took from the crisis was that he could take the next steps in Eastern Europe without war; the British lesson was the exact reverse, that Hitler's next violent step would bring conflict. Hitler took the British concessions as evidence of weakness, and was all too ready to listen to Ribbentrop, now foreign minister, that they had no appetite for war. So, what were the main factors causing the deterioration in Anglo-German relations? Why, the usual wierd sisters who walk in the company of dictators of all kinds: ignorance, ambition, arrogance and stupidity. Clio the Muse 02:36, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

And thank you for this answer also. It's quite admirable. S. J. Blair 07:17, 22 July 2007 (UTC)