Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 July 28

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July 28

Capital Spring or spring season?

Is this one of those AE/BE things or is there just some editor with his/her own preference around? Should seasons be capital of small? 71.236.26.74 (talk) 10:39, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Words denoting seasons should in almost all cases begin with a lowercase letter—see Wikipedia:MOS#Calendar_items. Deor (talk) 13:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

...keeping in mind that other rules of capitalization still apply. If you're going to the spring dance, keep it lowercase unless its title is Spring Dance. Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 15:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks y'all. I've corrected the article.

Resolved

Chinook jargon ?

What does "split the Cheechakos from the Sourdoughs" [1] mean ? Is it a common Alaskan expression ? 98.220.252.228 (talk) 18:08, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Cheechako is a Chinook word meaning tenderfoot, used chiefly in Alaska; a sourdough is a veteran inhabitant of Alaska or Northwestern Canada. So the idea seems weeding out the n00bs, or probably in her case, "true Alaskans," more or less.

I don't find the phrase exactly as quoted above anywhere but out of Palin's mouth, but there's a 1987 book by Thomas Wiedemann entitled Cheechako to Sourdough, and here's a blog post from 2003 about cheechakos and sourdouughs, so the idea of contrasting the two is out there. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 19:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation and links. You don't live up to your name! 98.220.252.228 (talk) 23:23, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Eng. to Ger. "blame culture"

How do you say "blame culture" in German?--Quest09 (talk) 18:31, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Sündenbock-Kultur? [2], have a look at this too: [3]. Leo is king! Aaadddaaammm (talk) 19:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Good question! First let's google up a good definition of "blame culture". In a welcome change from other keyword searches using Google, no Wikipedia page appears in the first screenful. Bliss! The second hit seems to give a good definition: a set of attitudes, for example, within a business or organization, characterized by an unwillingness to take risks or accept responsibility. But how to say it in German? The two links offered by Adam don't work unfortunately. Sündenbock-Kultur? That's one possibility, though I haven't seen it often enough that I would recommend its use without context or explication. Other possibilities worth playing with: Schnell war wieder ein Schuldiger gefunden. Beamten-Mentalität. Dienst nach Vorschrift. Schubladendenken. Duckmäusertum.Vollkasko-Mentalität. Jede Woche / jedes Jahr / ... wird wieder eine neue Sau durchs Dorf getrieben. Besser er als ich. Mönchlein Mönchlein, du gehst einen schweren Gang. Den letzten beißen die Hunde. Some of the above are proverbs. In German writing, proverbs are often pressed into service when an English writer would be riffing on a set of stereotypes or cliches instead. Above all, when recreating a text for a German readership do not worry about the German text running longer, with some sentences or paragraphs suddenly twice or even three times as long as they were in English. The language has its own rhythm and cadences. Go to Youtube and watch a few episodes of Büro Büro for inspiration, maybe also an episode or two of Stromberg. Good luck!--Goodmorningworld (talk) 21:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

A lot depends on context but most of Goodmorningworld's suggestions have a slightly different ring to them than "blame culture". They may still fit your particular use of the term. "...mit dem Finger auf Andere zeigen." or more commonly as "nicht mit dem Finger auf Andere zeigen" embodies the blame part. You could e.g. phrase it as In einer Gesellchaft die gern mit dem Finger auf Andere zeigt. Agreed on "Sündenbock-Kultur". Watch out with Kultur though, many uses are different than the English "culture" which is often closer to "...denken", "Gedankenwelt", Umfeld", "Gemeinschaft" or "Gesellschaft". Another term would be "<etwas> jemand anderem in die Schuhe schieben". You'll have to rewrite the phrase somewhat to use the most common German equivalent "Schwarzer Peter" based on the Old maid (card game). Eine <Unternehmens>kultur die den Schwarzen Peter gern anderen zuschiebt. or "Ein Umfeld in dem man Schwarzer Peter spielt." 71.236.26.74 (talk) 02:31, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

"Schwarzer Peter": yes, good one. --Goodmorningworld (talk) 08:48, 29 July 2009 (UTC) In any case, we should emphasize that "blame culture" is not so frequently encountered in U.S. English. In business journalism we would expect to see something like "playing the blame game" or "round up the usual suspects" more frequently; this knowledge will inform the choices made in the German-language version." --Goodmorningworld (talk) 21:09, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

"The profession of being a waiter"

I believe that a profession is such things as being a lawyer, architect, or doctor. Yet on the internet, particularly in American usage, I often see jobs that require much less education being described a profession, rather than as a job or a career. Is there a word that describes this devaluation of the term? 78.147.27.114 (talk) 18:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yeah. You're talking about two different uses of the word. In its traditional sense, a profession is a career requiring the earning of some kind of certification, the components of which are education, some kind of internship, the passing of some kind of test, and official acceptance by one's peers. Accountants, lawyers, doctors, architects, and teachers (please, let's not forget the teachers) fall into this category. There has always been an implied white-collar aspect to the term as well.

The other use basically means someone who gets paid to do a job and does it in a manner that complies with professional behavior. This is a very different concept. While a waiter CAN be very professional in his or her behavior, waiting tables is not a profession, in the strictest sense of the word. One must be very, very, VERY careful in how one uses the term, especially when using it in the more exclusive sense. I'm a teacher, and I had to pass a series of very expensive, very challenging tests to become one, and had to jump through all kinds of other hoops to earn that certification, and I'm proud of the designation. However, to refer to myself as a professional to the exclusion of the custodians and secretaries would be to invite all kinds of angry feelings and resentment. While I do consider my job a profession and their jobs something else, the tactful thing is usually not to express it. Mitchell k dwyer (talk) 20:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

That's about it. It's certainly possible to have a traditional profession (doctor, etc) but not operate professionally, in which case you could be in a lot of trouble from your peers, the law, or both. And it's possible to not have a profession as such but be a street cleaner, say, but do the most professional job in the world, exceeding everyone's expectations. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:56, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

I think the white collar bit is important. There are plenty of jobs which require certification of some kind that isn't considered "professional certification". Various kinds of engineers, airline pilots, HGV drivers, nurses, etc. I think to a large extent the term is purely traditional. Some things are traditionally considered professions, anything else isn't. Trying to explain it with rules is only ever going to be an approximation. --Tango (talk) 22:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Nobody's answered the question. 89.243.47.131 (talk) 22:53, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Pejoration. --ColinFine (talk) 23:02, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Title inflation is common in businesses where raises in pay are not possible.DOR (HK) (talk) 01:54, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

"The profession of being a waiter" reminds me of a definition of a sommelier. --TammyMoet (talk) 08:16, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

I concur with the word pejoration being the answer to the question.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 15:33, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

pejoration seems to me to require acquisition of negative connotation (or narrowing to a negatively-loaded sense), rather than mere loss of a positive connotation. —Tamfang (talk) 05:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Perjoration seems very similar to the word perjorative. which I though was something insulting. 78.147.244.14 (talk) 13:46, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Of course they're closely related. Both come from the Latin pejor, meaning 'worse'. (Note the number of rs.) —Tamfang (talk) 03:28, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Dialect/accent

Hi,

In German, different dialects are talked about a lot, both within Germany (eg North vs Bavarian dialects), and between countries. But when Germans ask about English dialects, I feel it's the wrong word, I feel like most different variations of English are just accents - mainly because I don't think the grammar changes between them. Are there actually any good examples of different English dialects, or am I correct in assuming mostly they are just accents?

Aaadddaaammm (talk) 19:11, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Most of the accents you hear do have their own grammar and language. Scouse, Geordie and Black Country are the most obvious. Black Country, for example, retains some words which are Germanic in origin such as "bin" for "am" (ich bin = I am), and also some words retained from Old English such as eow, eower for you, your. It's just that you have to listen to people talking between themselves to find such examples these days. Also, the standard English accent seems to have changed, and our young people seem to be talking with a mid-Atlantic accent for some reason. --TammyMoet (talk) 19:32, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Also Cumbrian dialect - which has a few words of old origin - such as 1,2,3 - see Yan Tan Tethera, however in my experience of people from cumbria they commonly speak very understandable english - possibly in more rural areas - eg shepheards etc .

The same applies to the yorkshire accent - only if you go to very rural areas do you get a chance to here an old dialect amongst the farmers (which can be totally incomprehensible)83.100.250.79 (talk) 20:03, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

There are grammatical differences between British English and American English, for example in subject-verb agreement. In American English, you can say only "The audience is listening", while in British English it's also possible (perhaps even more idiomatic?) to say "The audience are listening". (There are even minimal pairs like "England is..." vs. "England are..." or "Liverpool is ..." vs. "Liverpool are...".) American English can use the simple past in sentences like "Did you eat yet?", whereas British English can only use the perfect "Have you eaten yet?". Some varieties of British English can use the past participles "stood" and "sat" to form progressives ("He was stood there", "I was sat there"), which isn't possible in any variety of American English. And so on and so forth. The differences really aren't only in accent. +Angr 20:05, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

There are many differences between American English and British English (see American_English_and_British_English_differences, including the examples given above. Note that this article needs citations for verification. -- Alexandr Dmitri (Александр Дмитрий) (talk) 05:41, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

People talk a lot about "Dialekte" in German, but the differences are (especially as far as grammar is concerned) not very pronounced. Unless we're talking about Plattdeutsch, which is a true dialect in my eyes. For all the other "dialects", I think the German word "Mundart" is more appropriate. 80.123.210.172 (talk) 20:35, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Plattdeutsch is a separate language with several dialects and accents that can vary from one village to the next. (OR as a cousin of mine proved you could get beaten up as a kid for being from the "wrong" village and speaking with their accent. :-) The fact that many speakers these days started out with Hochdeutsch as their first language has led to a loss of some of the original grammar, vocabulary and language patterns. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 01:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Plattdeutsch is now a (or even many) "dialect(s)", but is also simply an older form of the whole language Deutsch, spoken only in the northern part of the country (an earlier form of which developed into the Dutch langauge centuries ago). So it is not to Hochdeutsch (now spoken) like the Scottish language is to English. Perhaps more like italian regional languages to school taught "Italian"--Radh (talk) 13:24, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

That statement is way too absolute to fly. At best the status is disputed. The Council of Europe, the German government and the Dutch government classify it as a language. I don't have any knowledge of the differences between regional Italian languages and school Italian. I do know that there is far more difference between Hochdeutsch and Plattdüütsch than just a couple of shifted vowels. You end up in a lot of mess if you divvy up the various Plattdüütsch dialects and declare them to be separate dialects of Hochdeutsch. There are separate dialects of Hochdeutsch in areas with the same Plattdüütsch dialect and vice versa. Earlier hopes by some that all Plattdüütsch speakers would just die off an the whole region would switch to Hochdeutsch have been proven false. Following a brief period of the local rural population trying to teach their children Hochdeutsch as a first language fizzled and many have reverted to either a bilingual or Plattdüütsch first, then Hochdeutsch. (The advantage in school they had hoped to gain for their children in teaching them Hochdeutsch first often didn't materialize.) In towns and cities on the other hand Plattdüütsch is usually only acquired by some interested parties. Most of the written Plattdüütsch originates there. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 15:08, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

---

When using the words "dialect" and "accent" to refer to different speech-varieties of the English language, "accent" tends to be used to refer to different pronunciations of somewhat quasi-standard English, while "dialect" tends to be used for varieties which depart very significantly from quasi-standard English, and show marked local features. AnonMoos (talk) 20:52, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, and it's possible to speak, say, Scottish English using exactly the same local words as a native Scot would use, but with a Spanish accent; or Jamaican English with an Albanian accent, or ... . -- JackofOz (talk) 21:51, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

The Scottish English page describes grammatical and vocabulary features of the dialect of Scottish English. Scots language (and the Northern Irish variant Ulster Scots) is clearly distinct from standard English with grammatical differences, different phonemes, and many unique vocabulary words, and people argue if Scots is a distinct language or one or more dialects of English. Indian English is very different again, not just in vocabulary. (I'm not entirely sure if the question means "dialects of England" or "of the English language", so if this doesn't answer the question, that's why.) --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 11:46, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

AA(V)E differs syntactically from standard US English; the WP article on it includes a brief attempt to describe the differences and you'll find a good treatment in Lisa J. Green, African American English: A Linguistic Introduction (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2002; ISBN 0-521-89138-8). Belfast English also differs syntactically, and in ways that are of some interest to "Minimalist" analyses (though not described in Mid Ulster English, which appears to be the most relevant article in WP); you'll therefore see its salient points mentioned in recent theoretical grammars of English (not for the faint-hearted!) by Andrew Radford and others. -- Hoary (talk) 22:32, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Japanese names

I'm looking for a comprehensive web site giving the correspondences between Japanese given names in hiragana/katakana (and possibly rōmaji) and their kanji form(s). For example, Akane (あかね, アカネ) can be written as 茜, 亜伽音, 亜佳子, 亜兼, 哀華音, 愛茜, 愛果音, 愛光. I'd like also to find an Internet resource providing a list of nanori for every kanji, as they are always extremely hard to find in normal online dictionaries (even in Wiktionary). --151.51.21.110 (talk) 21:12, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

It's a difficult thing, so I'm told, even for Japanese people, to know how to write some people's names because there are different ways to write a name, as you know. The reverse is also true, that characters can be read differently as names. There are a few resources listed at the bottom of Japanese name, but I don't know any truly comprehensive ones. Steewi (talk) 00:26, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

You could try Jdic.com if you know the reading/hiragana. There's a book by PG O'Neill called Japanese Names too. Exploding Boy (talk) 00:55, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

A conventional (dead tree) 漢和中辞典 is likely to give you plenty of bizarre but attested readings for each kanji. If you happen to be in Japan, look in a used bookstore: these things are dirt cheap. Look up a few characters and see if there's a subheading for personal names: in the dictionary I happen to have in front of me now there is not, but in the one I have halfway across the city there is (if I remember right). -- Hoary (talk) 09:51, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

ENAMDICT has 170+ entries for あかね and KANJIDIC has nanori (though not a complete set). Both are searchable through WWWJDIC (jdic.com). For the first choose ENAMDICT from the "Dictionary" drop-down, for the second follow the "Kanji Lookup" link. You can also download the data files and use offline readers, which are available for every major OS and many handhelds. -- BenRG (talk) 10:21, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Summarizing of "Crisis" section of "War of the Pacific" article and style of references

The following is a "summarized" version of a section in the War of the Pacific article:

"The dry climate of the Peruvian and Bolivian coasts had permitted the accumulation and preservation of vast amounts of high-quality nitrate deposits such as guano and saltpeter over many thousands of years. In the 1840s, the discovery of the use of guano as a fertilizer and saltpeter as a key ingredient in explosives made the Atacama desert strategically and economically valuable. Bolivia, Chile, and Peru suddenly found themselves sitting on the largest reserves of a resource that the world needed.

During the Chincha Islands War (1864-1866), Spain, under Queen Isabella II, attempted to use an incident involving Spanish citizens in Peru in order to dominate the guano-rich Chincha Islands and re-establish Spanish influence over an area that they had previously controlled with the Viceroyalty of Peru. After the bombardment of Valparaiso, Peru and Chile signed a defensive and offensive alliance against Spain in December 5, 1865. Together, with the minor aid of Bolivia and Ecuador (who had previously had an inconclusive war with Peru from 1858 to 1860), they forced the Spanish to withdraw after achieving victories at Papudo, Abtao, and Callao.

While during this time Peru and Chile enjoyed an alliance based on mutual interests, a conflicting situation between Bolivia and Chile developed due to that no permanent borders had been established between both nations. Claiming their borders according to the uti possidetis principle, Bolivia and Chile disagree on whether the territory of Charcas, originally part of the Viceroyalty of Peru and, later, part of the Viceroyalty of the Rio de la Plata, had access to the sea. Eventually, the two countries negotiated the Boundary Treaty of 1866 (commonly referred to as the "Treaty of Mutual Benefits") that established the 24th parallel as their national boundaries, and entitled Chile and Bolivia equal rights to share the tax revenue on mineral exports from the territory between the 23rd and 25th parallels, which comprised a large part of the Atacama desert. In 1872, Peru began to get involved in the dispute when it attempted to use its naval power in order to help Bolivia gain a definite boundary.

The population of the Atacama became quickly populated by Chilean investors backed by European, mainly British, capital. Due to the natural barrier that the Andes mountains created between the Bolivian altiplano, Bolivians were not able to colonize the area with as great a quantity. Chilean and foreign enterprises in the region eventually extended all the way to the Peruvian saltpeter mines. During the 1870s, Peru decided to capitalize on the guano exploitation and nationalized all industries in the region, which caused Peru to hold 58.8% of all saltpeter production, while Chile held 19% and Great Britain 13.5% of the production. After the War of the Pacific, Peru was left without saltpeter production, Chile decreased its production to 15%, and Great Britain increased its production to 55%.

On February 6, 1873, Peru and Bolivia signed a treaty of defensive alliance which guaranteed the independence, sovereignty and the integrity of their territories, and obliged them to defend each other against all foreign aggression. An additional clause kept the treaty secret among the allies. Argentina had begun talks with Peru and Bolivia to join the alliance, and the Chamber of Deputies, in a secret session, approved the law, but the Argentine Senate postponed the matter to 1874. Chile was not directly mentioned in the text of the treaty, but was not informed about its existence, which leads Chilean historians to believe that the treaty was in reality aimed against Chile.

In 1874, Chile and Bolivia superseded the boundary treaty signed in 1866 with a new boundary treaty granting Bolivia the authority to collect full tax revenue between the 23rd and 24th parallels, fixing the tax rates on Chilean companies for 25 years and calling for Bolivia to open up. Heavy British capital investment drove development through the area, and most of the exploitation of the coastal region of Atacama was conducted by Chilean companies and British investments. On December 26, 1874, the recently built ironclad Cochrane arrived in Valparaiso; it remained in Chile until the completion of the Blanco Encalada, throwing the balance of power in the south Pacific ocean towards Chile. Following this turn of events, Peru postponed the Argentine signing of the defensive alliance treaty."

The Questions

1. The first question is simple. Do any of you think it is possible to further summarize this section without taking away the most important points? If yes, can you give some examples?
2. The second question is in regards to the references. Is it necessary to include excerpts (Quotes) of the information found on books? Wouldn't it be easier just to do a normal MLS citation in regards to books?

Here is a sample reference from the paragraph I just posted:

[ref]See Private note of Riva-Agüero to Novoa, November 20 1872. Godoy papers. Cited in Gonzalo Bulnes, Chile Peru, the causes of the War 1879, page 58 and 59:

It is desirable that once for all, and as soon as possible, the relations between the two Republics should be defined, because it is necessary to arrive at an arrangement satisfactory to both parties. If Chile dealing with this boundary question seizes the most favourable opportunity to take possession of that coast-line, it is necessary that their plans develop before Chile is in possession of the ironclads under construction, in order that in the definite settlement of this question, the influence, which we are in a position to exert by means of our maritime preponderance may have due weight.[/ref]

I know this may seem like a bit of a challenge, but then again the several times I have been here I have received extremely positive results. Thanks in advance for everyone who helps.--$%MarshalN20%$ (talk) 21:22, 28 July 2009 (UTC)