Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 November 22

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November 22

Usage of "suborn"

This Wired article[1] contains the sentence: "What does that mean for a society, for a democracy, when the people that you elect on the basis of promises can basically suborn the will of the electorate?"

Does this usage of the word "suborn" sound correct? It doesn't really match any of the dictionary definitions. I'm no prescriptivist but after some Googling I still can't find any other source using "suborn" this way. WinterWall (talk) 01:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

He was probably aiming for "subvert" and got suborned along the way. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:42, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

"Suborn the will of the electorate" might be legitimate in some contexts - see moral panic, Red scare, "millions were willing to fight against Popery without knowing whether Popery was a man or a horse" (Defoe, I think). However, I suspect over-enthusiastic use of the thesaurus, with the writer looking for a replacement for something like "corrupt". Tevildo (talk) 23:55, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, Tevildo, that potential quote of Defoe's was hilarious. μηδείς (talk) 23:06, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

No problem, it's what we're here for. Research indicates that it was actually written by William Hazlitt, although he attributes it to Defoe. Tevildo (talk) 09:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

That's what I suspected. Thanks, you two. Isn't the Wired editor supposed to put a [sic] behind these kind of mistakes? WinterWall (talk) 02:08, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

See Sic#Form of ridicule. It's possible that Wired didn't want to be seen as ridiculing Snowden. It's also possible that they just missed it. ‑‑Mandruss ☎ 03:00, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Google suggests alternatives like: influence, affect, sway, impinge. LEO (Translator started at Munich University) confirms like mislead, entrap. G also suggests a Catalan word for bribery, payola as part of corruption. The article's quotation is about voters in decission influenced by given promises. If the promises are impossible, it would be stubborn to vote this way. Journalists were traveling into former russian terretories and reported similar, like buying electors decission for $20. --Hans Haase (talk) 10:23, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Paragraph

Guys, I need to insert the bulletins into the paragraph. I don’t know how to, I need help please.

Paragraph:

The development of English orthography was dominated by Christian texts. Capitalized, "God" was first used to refer to the Judeo-Christian concept and may now signify any monotheistic conception of God, including the translations of the Arabic ‘Allāh’, Persian ‘Khuda’, Indic ‘Ishvara’ and the African Maasai ‘Engai’.

• ‘Adonai’ YHWH as "Lord GOD"

• YHWH ‘Elohim’ as "LORD God"

• ‘κυριος ο θεος’ as "LORD God" (in the Septuagint, New Testament and related writings)

I thought of typing,

Hebrew ‘Adonai’ YHWH as "Lord GOD", and YHWH ‘Elohim’ as "LORD God". - I'm not sure if this is correct.

I don’t know what to type for the latter.

Greek ‘κυριος ο θεος’ as "LORD God" (in the Septuagint, New Testament and related writings)

(Russell.mo (talk) 05:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC))

Solution:

Will this work if I write it like this (I still don't know what I should insert exchanging the embolden words):

The development of English orthography was dominated by Christian texts. Capitalized, "God" was first used to refer to the Judeo-Christian concept i.e Hebrew ‘Adonai’ YHWH as "Lord GOD", and/or YHWH ‘Elohim’ as "LORD God", Greek ‘κυριος ο θεος’ as "LORD God" (in the Septuagint, New Testament and related writings), and may now signify any monotheistic conception of God, including the translations of the Arabic ‘Allāh’, Persian ‘Khuda’, Indic ‘Ishvara’ and the African Maasai ‘Engai’.

Can someone help me please?

(Russell.mo (talk) 13:36, 22 November 2014 (UTC))

Russell, I have no idea what you're asking. Are you asking if the words you're quoting are really from the Hebrew or the Greek language? Yes they are. What you say is Greek is indeed Greek and what you say is Hebrew is indeed Hebrew. Other than that I haven't got the faintest idea what the problem is. Contact Basemetal here 15:17, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't sure what I thought of was correct, I also thought something else could be inserted instead of what's embolden, I believe you cleared it... Thanks! Also, is it okay how I wrote the paragraph? -- (Russell.mo (talk) 17:21, 22 November 2014 (UTC))

Your paragraph may come from WP article God (word) but the way it is written there takes into account context which you do not provide. So you may have have to adapt it a little bit. How about "The development of the English orthography of the word God was driven by Christian usage. Capitalized, God was first used to refer to the Judeo-Christian concept, i.e. Hebrew YHWH or Elohim or Adonai, adopted into Greek (first in the Jewish Greek writings, then in Christian literature) as ho Kurios or ho Theos, and may nowadays be used to signify any monotheistic concept of God, including that conveyed by Arabic Allah, Persian Khuda, Indic Ishvara and Maasai Engai." I can't vouch for the factual accuracy of everything here (even though it's from Wikipedia ) but the English seems to me to be ok. Why are you transcribing the Hebrew but leaving the Greek? Are your readers familiar with the Greek alphabet? Note also that the way you (and the writer of the WP article) wrote the Ancient Greek phrase ignores accents and breathings which are normally part of how you write that phrase. Sometimes in Greek they capitalize sometimes they don't. Strictly speaking in Greek God is ho Theos. Ho Kurios ho Theos means the Lord God. And it is not necessary to provide English paraphrases (which are arbitrary anyway) for the Hebrew phrases. I don't know why you picked specifically the Maasai word as representative of Africa (except that it was in the article). It is not necessary to say African Maasai because I'm not aware of any other language with that name anywhere else in the world. Strictly speaking it is probably better to say that Ishvara is Sanskrit rather than Indic as there are other Indic languages than Sanskrit but it is true that many borrowed heavily from Sanskrit. Depending on your audience you may wanna include the original spellings (in the Hebrew, Greek, Devanagari, Arabic and Middle Persian alphabets) but then again that may just be overkill. Hope this helps a bit. Always remember to always examine what you find in WP critically. WP is famously the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and it had at the last count 4,653,687 articles and 744,266,268 edits. More than a few of them are bound to be garbage. So always adopt a defensive posture. Contact Basemetal here 20:54, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

I’m just trying to create a shortcut understanding. I don’t have a full knowledge of what I am doing. All I know a few volunteers helped and gave me tips and tricks like you have to fix my careless (unknown) mistakes. I don’t know who’s gonna read the Sh_ _t. I am dying to finish it. it’s been over two years and I just wrote 25 pages. I am sick and tired. Thanks for opening my mind though. Please guide me like this if you find anymore silliness. I’ll examine from now on, I think I got the idea of how to examine… -- (Russell.mo (talk) 03:57, 23 November 2014 (UTC))

Resolved

My suggestions assumed you had a particular readership in mind. I didn't know you didn't. You've been coming to the RD for over two years and writing a document you don't know who's gonna read? Why are you doing this? Life is short. Contact Basemetal here 14:19, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

"Does my ars longa look big in this?" Martinevans123 (talk) 14:43, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I saw you edit summary was "true, but". Or did you intend "true butt"? Contact Basemetal here 15:04, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't view the edit summary Basemetal so, I don't know what you are talking about... Since you asked, I'm doing this for God and myself. Life is short I know, but is very long in the afterlife. Do you know? So far I found two volunteers, one, a sweetheart lady, very slow, can't quite grasp what I wish for her to do. Messes things up in other words. She's off the list now. I think it's too much for her. The other, a gentleman, InedibleHulk, surprised he volunteered... I wanted you too but I think you just wanted to provide casual help. I'm mainly looking for volunteers who know about the past ancient histories, religions and mythologies. only a person who knows these three categories will understand the 25 page story. You and hulky seems to be good, very caring, helpful and hopeful. (I don't know what subject you two are good at though... Doesn't matter anyways because I won't be able to receive the type of help I require from none of you. I guess WP is the best extend...). Anyways, thanks a lot for your help so far guys... I'm grateful. I believe in good, very helpful and hopeful, its feels good to associate with similar type of people. -- (Russell.mo (talk) 14:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC))

Rephrasing:

1) Done

“He also had a white spiritual Horse, a white stallion he mentioned named ‘Pegasus’.”

Shall I take off the two words “spiritual Horse” or leave it, because stallion means horse… People hardly use the word stallion therefore I wish to use the word. Or, what can I write instead of the sentence I quoted? Any suggestions?

You could write "He [also] had a mythical white horse, a stallion named Pegasus" or "He [also] had a mythical horse, a white stallion named Pegasus" or even better in my opinion "He [also] had a mythical white stallion named Pegasus" which is the most concise. In any case you don't need to repeat "white". I don't know what you mean by "spiritual", I presume you meant "mythical". I don't know who "he" is so I don't know if you'd be better off writing "owned" or "rode" or what have you (instead of "had"). Whether your "also" and "mentioned" are redundant or appropriate (though I'm almost certain that "mentioned" is redundant) can't be answered unless you give the entire context, that is a paragraph, or a few sentences before and (preferably, but not as crucially) after. Contact Basemetal here 13:57, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Spiritual as in Ghostly, mythical sounds good though. Will it cover the word ghostly/spiritual? -- (Russell.mo (talk) 17:22, 22 November 2014 (UTC))

But Pegasus was not "ghostly". He was a very real winged horse. Except he is a mythical horse. He's not dead. He's been turned into a constellation. You gotta love Pegasus's pedigree here. This is Nijinsky's. And this is a List of leading Thoroughbred racehorses in racing history. All these other horses are not winged and not mythical but not ghostly either. Contact Basemetal here 22:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I guess the word 'Pegasus' needs to be exchanged with something else, say the name 'Rosa'. I'm talking about a ghostly horse, just like a spirit/soul/ghost of a man/woman, same way as for a horse. A spirit that hangs around, like the 'ghostbusters' film but this spirit horse is good... This horse does come from a mythical story though i.e (I don't exactly remember where from) but in the paragraph it says "Heavens open and the angel fall down riding a white stallion justifying the right and wrong"... -- (Russell.mo (talk) 02:07, 23 November 2014 (UTC))

"He also had a ghostly white stallion named Pegasus." There's no rule against giving your horse (or your fictional character's horse) the name of a mythical horse, so long as you don't imply that your horse is the winged horse of myth. —Tamfang (talk) 08:43, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

I understand Tamfang, (out of curiosity) the word 'ghostly', doesn't it sound a bit childish? I do mean the 'horse', a friend like 'Casper' the ghost. Your sentence do ultimately state what I mean, its just the word 'ghost'. The book is kind of, based on religous stuff... Or, Shall I just not think about it too much as two views (yours and mine) do agree upon what you stated? Also, can I write "He also had a "_ _ _ _ _ _ _" white stallion named Rosa what look like a Pegasus." Or, "He also had a "_ _ _ _ _ _ _" white stallion named Rosa, a winged horse that is found in the mythical story named Pegasus." -- (Russell.mo (talk) 17:51, 23 November 2014 (UTC))

No, ghostly does not sound childish to me. — It would be more natural to simply add winged to the description than to invoke Pegasus. — I wouldn't give a feminine name like Rosa to a stallion. —Tamfang (talk) 20:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Lol. Understood, thank you. -- (Russell.mo (talk) 21:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC))

I'd add a slight rephrasing to "a white, ghostly horse" to clarigy that the horse is both white and ghostly, rather than white like a ghost. If you want a more formal sounding word for ghostly, then "spectral" is a good alternative. MChesterMC (talk) 10:22, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Hello MChesterMC, I can't find the word 'clarigy', I don't know what it means? 'Spectral' sounds good can you put it in a sentence or check the following if it is correct: "He also had a spectral winged mythical horse named ________." Or, "He also had a spectral winged mythical horse named ________, what is found, heard in mythical stories." P.S: What thesaurus do you use? I'm looking for a thesaurus which provides formal English words only, not everything available in the jungle..lol -- (Russell.mo (talk) 13:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC))

I think that was a typo for "clarify". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:46, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

What's wrong with "he also had a spectral winged horse"? Unless this is a story (like Thursday Next or Silverlock) about myth or fiction come to life, what's the point of specifying that the horse is mythical? If you mean to emphasize that the horse is weird, I think winged and spectral suffice! — "what is found" is wrong here; you can replace it with "such as is found, or told of, in myth"; there may be better phrasings. —Tamfang (talk) 08:13, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes Tamfang, you got that right, I'm trying to mix a few mythological stories with fiction (lies) now. The Mythical word sound cool too with the line, that's why I was wondering. If you disagree and confirm it then I won't insert it. P.S: I wish for you to say "yes", please please please!?! Another thing I forgot to mention, its like a ghost okay, you can go through this horse, its not transparent, you won't get a smack when you hit it. -- (Russell.mo (talk) 13:38, 25 November 2014 (UTC))

@Tamfang: -- (Russell.mo (talk) 15:05, 27 November 2014 (UTC))

Has anyone seen 'He-man'? What can I call Shira's horse? (a profound name please). I wanna describe that horse as a ghostly horse but mixing it with the word 'stallion', what I found in a religious text... -- (Russell.mo (talk) 18:02, 23 November 2014 (UTC))

2)  Done

These individuals are the ones who were living (lived) their lives inappropriately , known to have followed their destiny to hell which was written from beforehand before they were born (by the God almighty), for the satanic activities they done in their lifetime, including the time and after H stood up.

Can it be written in another way? Any suggestions?

(Russell.mo (talk) 13:39, 22 November 2014 (UTC))

For the second sentence I sort of get a vague idea what you're trying to say. How about this: "Those people lived their lives inappropriately. They had been destined to hell by God Almighty from before they were born for the Satanic activities they would perform in their lifetime." This is sort of trying to reconcile (or cover) the logical difficulty (as with all those religious statements): did they go to hell because of what they did in their life or were they destined to go to hell and did they do what they did just in order that their destiny be accomplished. But I'll leave it at that. Contact Basemetal here 14:10, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

they were destined to go to hell and did what they did just in order that their destiny be accomplished. Thanks -- (Russell.mo (talk) 17:22, 22 November 2014 (UTC))

Thanks Basemetal and Tamfang -- (Russell.mo (talk) 21:44, 23 November 2014 (UTC))

Resolved