Language desk
< February 22	<< Jan \| February \| Mar >>	February 24 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

February 23

Tense, mood, aspect, and ordering

If we consider a verb in a ground state (infinitive in many languages) and think of tense, mood, and aspects as transformations applied to produce the desired form of the finite verb, in a number of languages this appears to happen in the order aspect, mood, and tense. I am considering tense, mood, and aspect as being broadly defined and corresponding to one or more of the normal parts of verb conjugation for that particular language. Also I am considering the order as starting with the main form of the verb and then moving outward, either left or right, and with prefixes/endings, auxiliary verbs, or other particles.

For example, the English "I had written a book", the main verb is 'write', auxiliary have + 'written' is perfect 'aspect', and 'had' is past tense, i.e. in the order aspect and then tense if we consider starting and the verb and moving outwards. "I would have written" is modal auxiliary + auxiliary have for perfect aspect + participle, or, starting from the verb, aspect, then mood. "I should have been writing" follows the same pattern but uses both perfect and progressive aspects, again with aspect closest to the main word expressing the verb.

For something like Latin, do/dare has a perfect form dedi (transformation of the stem itself of the verb), and also endings which can be considered as being applied in layers, first distinguishing indicative versus subjunctive mood ( damus versus demus), and then finally, furthest from the stem, elements expressing tense (and then person/number). Again, more or less in the order, going outward from the verb, aspect, mood, and tense.

Russian verbs distinguish imperfective and perfective aspect by changing the verb itself (augmenting it with a prefix or sometimes even substituting a new word), and then indicate tense by adding endings to the verb resulting from the first transformation. (However in Russian mood, i.e. future/conditional, does not follow the same pattern, being expressed with a separate particle that is farther from the verb than the tense marker.)

A classic creole language verb system has verb particles that appear before the main verb in the order from left to right (in left to right writing) of tense, mood, aspect, or, going outward from the verb, aspect, mood, tense.

Question: Is this aspect-mood-tense order of transformation a general phenomenon in languages? Or at least in Indo-European languages? Peter Grey (talk) 05:07, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In case you haven't already seen it, we have the article Tense-aspect-mood. Although it does not address your question generically, it does give information about various particular languages. Loraof (talk) 15:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One thing that article points out is that in many languages, such as the Romance languages, tense, aspect, and/or mood are often tangled together. For example, in French, the imperfect conveys both imperfective aspect and past tense. Thus it cannot be said that there is an ordering of aspect and tense. So probably your question needs to be limited to agglutinative and analytic languages. Loraof (talk) 15:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't always a clear-cut distinction between expressing tense, mood and aspect. Not only can these be "tangled together" as User:Loraof mentions, they can be "blurred": for example, the article on Biblical Hebrew says it's a matter of debate whether its verb conjugation expressed tense, aspect, or both. Modern Hebrew grammar doesn't express aspect at all. Similarly, the article on Arabic verbs says, "In some contexts, the tenses represent aspectual distinctions rather than tense distinctions." -- i.e. the same conjugation is used to express tense in some contexts, and aspect in others. --My another account (talk) 18:09, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If an operation on a verb transforms two or more of tense, mood, or aspect, count that as more than one tied for the same place in the order. Peter Grey (talk) 09:40, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

North African Saïd Aouita, etc.

I have a question on the Arabic morphology and etymology of some North African names. For instance, it seems that "-ouita" or just "-ita" (?) in Saïd Aouita (Arabic: سعيد عويطة, Moroccan) and Sabah Bouzouita (Arabic: صباح بوزيد (?), Tunisian) is a suffix or a suffix-like morpheme. If the particle is something like that I mentioned, what does is mean and, etymologically, what language (or dialect) it is derived from? Could it be Amazigh or another Berber language, or something like an Afro-Asiatic (Afrisian) language? Is the names ending with this grammatical particle Arabic originally? I preferred to bring up the question here on this page, instead of the Arabic page, although that page is almost trustworthy. It seems that this "Reference desk" complies me more exquisite and precise. Thanks in advance. Hamid Hassani (talk) 13:51, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not an answer, but I notice that the Arabic spelling of the "suffix" is completely different in the two cases, suggesting that the similarity may be entirely an artifact of the transliteration. --ColinFine (talk) 14:17, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I see Sabah's name variously spelled as بوزويطة or as بو زويتا, although never as بوزيد. --My another account (talk) 14:26, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I guessed that the spelling "بوزيد" is incorrect, even though after a quick googling, I found the wrong spelling on some webpages, including the WP's Arabic article (in the article on the movie Hedi (2016)). But I did not find the correct spelling which My another account mentioned! Hamid Hassani (talk) 15:03, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

From the second spelling (بو زويتا), one may infer that Bou- is the abbreviated kunya Abū-. This leaves, for the supposed "roots" of the two names, "a-" in the first case, and "z-" in the second. These are rather short "roots", I must say. --My another account (talk) 15:46, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

In most Semitic languages, and among them, in Arabic, Abū- (also Romanized as Abu-) is one of the kunya forms (< nominative construct of the word Ab (father)). These are some famous examples: Abū Bakr (Muhammad's Sahabi), Abu Mazen. Other variations: Bū- (Arabic: بو), Bā- (با), Bī- (بي), Abā- (أبا), Abī- (أبي) (Cf. here). Anyway, my main question is the etymology of "Aouita", "[Bou]zouita" and other similar North African Arabic given names, with the probability influence of Berber languages on them; e.g., is "Aouita" derived from a non-Arabic morpheme plus the suffix (or a suffix-like morpheme) like -[ou]ita? Hamid Hassani (talk) 16:37, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My point is: if -[ou]ita is the suffix in Aouita and Zouita, then what is the root in these names? a- and z-? --My another account (talk) 17:21, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure about that; but, as you told above, a- and z- are too short to be Semitic roots. The roots can be Aou- and Zou- (?) respectively. Anyway, may be each of these two names are wholly "mono-morpheme" words. Hamid Hassani (talk) 17:56, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing of Arabic, but having seen Laurence of Arabia, this reminds me of Auda Abu Tayi of the Howeitat as it might be written and pronounced in French. μηδείς (talk) 00:38, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the late 19th and early 20th century Bedouin Arabic given names, esp. family names, are under the influence of the morphophonemic style of the French language. For instance, the tribe Howeitat/ Howaytat which you mentioned, can be Romanized as /Ḥuwayṭāt/ (with a long a on the last syllable, unlike the final a in the two names which I mentioned — as regards Arabic is a quantitative language intrinsically; something like Latin and Ancient Greek). Thank you Medeis for reminding of the name, indeed. Hamid Hassani (talk) 10:12, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of "avoirdupois"

The article gives /ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/. Really? I can imagine using those phonemes, but that stress pattern strikes me as bizarre, especially the principal stress on the last syllable.
On the other hand, I wouldn't be surprised to hear /ə'vɜːrdəˌpɔɪz/.
Has anyone here actually heard the pronunciation from the article used in the wild? --Trovatore (talk) 20:13, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No. Down here in Underland, people used to give it a half French, half English pron: "ˈav-wah-dew-poise". But it's been decades since I heard it used at all, and I'm sure most young people would draw a total blank. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:07, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Then how do you explain to them the riddle about which is heavier, a pound of gold or a pound of feathers? --Trovatore (talk) 21:30, 23 February 2016 (UTC) [reply]

One would simply avoid the a-word. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:30, 23 February 2016 (UTC) [reply]

This dictionary site has the French pronunciation (which is the way I would say it, I must admit) in the IPA, but the "Aver-der-POISE" pronunciation in the audio samples. This SDMB thread discuss the issue. See also Bourgeois (typography) for a similar example - the books say it's pronounced "Bur-JOYS", but I've not heard a version of The Hound of the Baskervilles (which is the only place a modern reader is likely to encounter it) where Holmes doesn't pronounce it "bor-zhwah". Tevildo (talk) 22:24, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I took French before I took HS chemistry, and was surprised the teacher (outstanding in her field) did indeed pronounce it /ˌævərdəˈpɔɪz/. μηδείς (talk) 00:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Weird. It just sounds so emphatic. I can't think of another English word that has that stress pattern (La-la-la-LAH) at least when not used emphatically. --Trovatore (talk) 00:46, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See Foot (prosody)#Tetrasyllables and http://www.ashley-bovan.co.uk/words/feet.html.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:00, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, cool, thanks. "Undersubscribed". That works, I guess. But it just seems so much more natural to put the principal stress on the second syllable and the secondary stress on the final syllable. How did the La-la-la-LAH stress pattern get picked for this word? Was it an attempt to mimic the French (which, supposedly, doesn't have phonemic stress at all), while completely substituting English spelling phonemes for the actual sounds? --Trovatore (talk) 01:32, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

(I think I would also use the la-LAH-la-La stress pattern when speaking French, BTW.) --Trovatore (talk) 01:46, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

My Webster's says the stress is on the last syllable. I have to admit, though, that I've never heard anyone say it out loud. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:44, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some additional expressions with the "quartus paeon" stress pattern, generated by my own mind.

into the wind, out of the blue, over the moon, under a rock, peaches and cream, sugar and spice, winter and spring, coffee and tea, pasteurized milk, seven o'clock, misunderstand, undiagnosed, first violin, bass clarinet, strawberry wine, easy as pie, head of the class, talk of the town, alphabet soup, husbands and wives, just to be sure, windows and doors, pie in the sky, legerdemain, dollars and cents, father and son, walking on air, heaven and earth, Wizard of Oz, back to the land, yet to be seen, didgeridoo, Yellow Brick Road, coming to terms, Adam and Eve, mayor-elect, sergeant-at-arms

The Morse code for "V" is "dot-dot-dot-dash". See also "Symphony No. 5 (Beethoven)".

—Wavelength (talk) 18:01, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

mayor with two syllables!? what are they? and where in the world are they thus spoken? --catslash (talk) 01:29, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

See wikt:mayor and http://www.fonetiks.org and http://forvo.com/word/mayor/#en.

—Wavelength (talk) 01:04, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Mayor" normally has two syllables, except in places like Chicago where "the mayor" is more like "da mare". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:37, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Mayor" normally has one syllable, except in places like the USA, where "the mayor" is more like "the may your". DuncanHill (talk) 11:57, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Except in places like Chicago, where "da mare" is the stereotype, like "da Bears" and such. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:39, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Here are some additional expressions: Porgy and Bess, Bonnie and Clyde, "Fibber McGee" of Fibber McGee and Molly, "Jack of all trades, master of none", waterproof watch, bulletproof vest, tamperproof seal, bachelorette, justice delayed, justice denied

—Wavelength (talk) 01:04, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Bachelorette" has just three syllables for me. None of the rest is a single word. In any case most of them seem to be equally stressed on the first and fourth syllables, not secondary on the first and primary on the fourth. --Trovatore (talk) 03:55, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As in "bach'lorette"? Sounds like a regional accent. How do you pronounce a word like "hickory"? Three syllables? Or two? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:09, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Hickory" has three syllables for me. Wiktionary says "bachelorette" is /ˌbætʃləˈɹɛt/, which is how I pronounce it, more or less. To make it four syllables you'd have to do something like /bætʃələˈɹɛt/, or make the /l/ syllabic. --Trovatore (talk) 05:35, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It might be pronounced "bach'lorette" regionally, just as it's pronounced "hick'ry" regionally. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:53, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, according to Wiktionary, "bachelorette" has three syllables, period. Not just regionally. I will grant that it is certainly possible that they omitted a pronunciation. --Trovatore (talk) 11:37, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like Wiktionary needs updating, then [1], which I have done. Bazza (talk) 12:33, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary is as reliable as Wikipedia. One thing about Brits is their tendency to abbreviate words. Forecastle is an extreme example. But there are also more common words such as "inventory", which Americans pronounce "IN-ven-tor-ee" and Brits pronounce "IN-ven-tree". That's in line with "HICK-or-ee" vs. "HICK-ree". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:42, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Bugs, I don't buy it. Three syllables is the normal pronunciation for bachelorette. It's not like hickory. --Trovatore (talk) 19:59, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That's not "normal" by any means, though it's often said that way, just as "bachelor" is often said with two syllables. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It is, in fact, normal. --Trovatore (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

By contrast, Americans tend to extend words, for example pronouncing "vet" as "vet-in-air-ian". DuncanHill (talk) 19:57, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Veterinarian abbreviated to "vet-n-Aryan", another colloquialism, yes. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:07, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like, in your (@BB) rush to stereotype other peoples, that you missed my reference: [2], in which I count four syllables. The same goes for your misunderstanding of [3], with its six. Bazza (talk) 22:05, 27 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You and Trovatore can slug this one out. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:15, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm? Why? He marked it as a UK pronunciation. That may very well be accurate. --Trovatore (talk) 00:34, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

So, "normal" for UK, then. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:55, 28 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Has anyone here actually heard the pronunciation from the article used in the wild?" Not exactly the wild, but here are a lyric and a verse:

jnestorius^(talk) 22:41, 1 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Origin of the name Karolinska Institutet

Where does the Karolinska part come from? Whom does it refer to? --Llaanngg (talk) 23:10, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

To Charles XIII of Sweden, its founder. Charles/Karl/Carol are forms of the same name. DuncanHill (talk) 23:15, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There is still some distance from Karl or Carol to Karolinska,. Is the -inska part a genitive? --Llaanngg (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Off the top of my head, I think it signifies an adjective formed from a noun. Been a while since I did any Swedish grammar! DuncanHill (talk) 23:53, 23 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think that in Swedish, the '-ska' suffix is akin to the English '-ish' or '-ian' suffix in words like "Swedish" or "Norwegian" (svenska and norska respectively). In this case, then "Karolinska" is a cognate to an English word like Carolingian "of Charles". --Jayron 32 00:01, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The -a at the end is because Institutet has a definite article at the end (institutet = the institute), and Swedish adjectives are inflected for this. The -sk ending is "of or pertaining to; making an adjective based on a noun" according to Wiktionary. DuncanHill (talk) 00:03, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. The "in" suffix part is special. "sk" is normally enough to show "of or pertaining to", but for male Latin male names however, either "in", "en", "an" or "ian" is sometimes added, especially among kings, as "Karolin", "Gustavian" etc. Star Lord - 星爵 (talk) 10:58, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could the -in- part be cognate with the -ing- part from the Germanic root meaning "descendant" as noted below by Tamfang, i.e. Luitpoldings, Carolingian? --Jayron 32 12:18, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Carolingian appears to contain the ing suffix that means 'descendant'. —Tamfang (talk) 07:31, 24 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As stated above, Charles/Karl/Carolus are forms of the same name, but in different languages. In Latin Carolinus/Karolinus means "of Carolus/Karolus". The Latin suffix -in is via wikt:en:-inus and wikt:en:Appendix:Proto-Germanic/-īnaz cognate to English -en, German -en. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 13:08, 26 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Llaanngg: The word karolin (plural karoliner) is Swedish for "carolean". The Institute was originally founded to educate carolean feldshers. So literally, "The Carolean Institute". Gabbe (talk) 06:09, 29 February 2016 (UTC)�[reply]